8 Shot rule CAUTION

[pskys2]

The SS Nationals have never posted the Courses and they are running the Revo Nats pretty much the same.

It's not the PF violation that moves you to Open, it's shooting more than 6 before reloading. You can shoot Minor with the 625 if you wish, or major with the 627, you just can't claim major and shoot a 7th shot, that puts you in open regardless of what the chrono shows when you get there. Exactly the same as a SS competitor claiming major and shooting a .40 s&W who then fires 10 before a reload or loads with a mag with more than 8 rounds.

Edited February 18, 2014 by pskys2

[RevolverJockey]

Go sub minor and you shoot for fun, did that at production nationals last year.....

For me, this is well established. I am more curious about the penalty for failing to make major.

Lee

[seanc]

I just finished taking the USPSA level 1 RO class this weekend, after letting my RO rating lapse several years ago. Jay Worden was the instructor.

This was the first class that he has taught since the rule changes.

We covered the new rule changes and I asked him several questions about revolver and the main thing I think every revolver shooter should be aware of has to do with major matches and declaring Major or Minor.

Many shooters have said that if you want to wait until you see the courses of fire to decide which gun to shoot(6 or 8) sign up for major and if you decide to shoot 8 shot the chrono will put you in 8 minor when you get to it. This is WRONG.

Jay said if you declare major on your match entry and then to decide to shoot 8 minor on the day of the match when you shoot the first stage with your 8 shot gun when you shoot your 7th shot with out reloading you will be bumped to OPEN CLASS not 8 minor. He said if you declare Major the rules state NO MORE THAN 6 SHOTS WITHOUT A RELOAD. It won't move you to 8 minor.

You will need to change your major declaration to minor at stats before you fire your first shot.

I know I declared major for most of the matches I have signed up for so far this year but I will have to change it if the courses of fire favor the 8 shot, and yes I know every match will favor the 8 shot.

I wonder if the Stats person has any idea what they are in for at the nationals as 40 or 50 people might want to change their PF a few minutes before the match starts

This doesn't seem like it should be suprising based on the way the rules are written.

If you should 12 times in production, you go to open.

If you shooting ss major and somehow the gun goes bang 10 times without a reload, you are in open, not minor.

Why would this be different in rev?

Edited February 18, 2014 by seanc

[seanc]

Go sub minor and you shoot for fun, did that at production nationals last year.....

For me, this is well established. I am more curious about the penalty for failing to make major.

Lee

What penalty would there be? If you don't make major, then your match is scored minor.

[RevolverJockey]

Go sub minor and you shoot for fun, did that at production nationals last year.....

For me, this is well established. I am more curious about the penalty for failing to make major.

Lee

What penalty would there be? If you don't make major, then your match is scored minor.

My confusion came in the post that the interpretation of ANY PF violation results in being moved to Open. Edited February 18, 2014 by RevolverJockey

[seanc]

Just because Jay said that with an authoritative tone doesn't necessarily mean he is right.

Mike,

What is the supporting rule that makes him wrong would be my question?

If you declare a division with capacity requirements then start shooting and violate the capacity requirement, you are in open. That's pretty clear cut.

I get that for a standalone revolver only match the rule it is not convenient, but it is consistent.

I suspect Amidon would probably agree with jay's interpretation.

sean

[rgkeller]

Well, the eight round minor has gone from "bringing new shooters into the sport" to "bring both major and minor pistols to the match."

Revolver shooters are different, no doubt.

Never heard of a single stack shooter bringing both 8 and 10 round mag pistols to the Nationals.

[steel1212]

Go sub minor and you shoot for fun, did that at production nationals last year.....

For me, this is well established. I am more curious about the penalty for failing to make major.

Lee

What penalty would there be? If you don't make major, then your match is scored minor.

My confusion came in the post that the interpretation of ANY PF violation results in being moved to Open.

A PF violation doesn't move you to open. Declaring major revo and shooting 7 shots moves you to open

[RevolverJockey]

Go sub minor and you shoot for fun, did that at production nationals last year.....

For me, this is well established. I am more curious about the penalty for failing to make major.

Lee

What penalty would there be? If you don't make major, then your match is scored minor.

My confusion came in the post that the interpretation of ANY PF violation results in being moved to Open.

A PF violation doesn't move you to open. Declaring major revo and shooting 7 shots moves you to open

I think I am tracking now. Still seems like an overly stiff penalty.

[seanc]

A PF violation doesn't move you to open. Declaring major revo and shooting 7 shots moves you to open

From appendix D6, revolver equipment, section 9

9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload if Major PF declared, 8 if minor PF declared.

You go to open because of...

6.2.5.1

However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, other-wise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

[Sarge]

Well, the eight round minor has gone from "bringing new shooters into the sport" to "bring both major and minor pistols to the match."

Yep, the rule has morphed significantly. Unintended consequences to let revolver shooters go to a match and decide which gun they want to shoot . Ill conceived.

[Carmoney]

Just because Jay said that with an authoritative tone doesn't necessarily mean he is right.

Mike,

What is the supporting rule that makes him wrong would be my question?

If you declare a division with capacity requirements then start shooting and violate the capacity requirement, you are in open. That's pretty clear cut.

I get that for a standalone revolver only match the rule it is not convenient, but it is consistent.

I suspect Amidon would probably agree with jay's interpretation.

sean

I'm not saying he's wrong. But Jay's always pretty sure of everything he says. Know what I mean?

[Carmoney]

Never heard of a single stack shooter bringing both 8 and 10 round mag pistols to the Nationals.

Every SS Nationals has been run by the same guys who ran the SS Classic for years. Everybody who has ever shot the match knows they make damn sure the stages are 8-round neutral. They are not going to willingly allow a 10-round 9mm pistol to win that match (although it has almost happened by accident once or twice).

[Carmoney]

Well, the eight round minor has gone from "bringing new shooters into the sport" to "bring both major and minor pistols to the match."

Yep, the rule has morphed significantly. Unintended consequences to let revolver shooters go to a match and decide which gun they want to shoot . Ill conceived.

There's a reason you're in a big upheaval over this, Sarge. You're reacting exactly as you are supposed to react--by getting irritated with the revolver shooters instead of recognizing that USPSA took the lazy way out of solving the classifier issue.

[Sarge]

Well, the eight round minor has gone from "bringing new shooters into the sport" to "bring both major and minor pistols to the match."

Yep, the rule has morphed significantly. Unintended consequences to let revolver shooters go to a match and decide which gun they want to shoot . Ill conceived.

There's a reason you're in a big upheaval over this, Sarge. You're reacting exactly as you are supposed to react--by getting irritated with the revolver shooters instead of recognizing that USPSA took the lazy way out of solving the classifier issue.

I hope I don't come off as having anything against revolver shooters. There is nothing quite as entertaining as watching them handle 32 round field courses. But I do have a problem with the rules affect on my game. i.e. classifiers. And after talking with some other shooters last night the feeling is kind of mutual that the classifier situation was not handled as well as it could have been.

[seanc]

I'm not saying he's wrong. But Jay's always pretty sure of everything he says. Know what I mean?

I do now

[Carmoney]

I hope I don't come off as having anything against revolver shooters. There is nothing quite as entertaining as watching them handle 32 round field courses.

Really? Your tone in the other discussion thread, and in your open letter to USPSA, is pretty derogatory toward us.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course--but you might want to consider the possibility that you're being manipulated.

[ChrisC]

I still see guys with cmores and 32 round mags hit no shoots on 6 round neutral classifiers just the same as they did on the non 6 round friendly ones

[rgkeller]

I hope I don't come off as having anything against revolver shooters. There is nothing quite as entertaining as watching them handle 32 round field courses.

Really? Your tone in the other discussion thread, and in your open letter to USPSA, is pretty derogatory toward us.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course--but you might want to consider the possibility that you're being manipulated.

Yeah, there is a huge conspiracy against revolver shooters.

[hopalong]

Let me put just a hint. l predicted the bring 2 guns and choose which is best option to my area director (A-6) and with that prediction and the fact that she heard more negative responses from members in her area than positive is why she voted not to change the rule.

Now this (change declared pf) can still be done but you will need to declare it to the match staff before you fire your first shot (no rule against it yet) , but i can see a rule getting added to prevent this kind of thing really quick and that decision being put into the Match director/Range Masters hands at match time to allow it or not.

So if you have a real reason to change Pf like breaking a primary gun prior to the match and not having a similar reacement IE break that fancy 929 and having the 625 as back up you can still shoot the match and not have to stay home.

The problem with the classifiers is just that. Sarge has as much a gripe as all those who wanted the 7+ shooter rule to be added. So just let the evolution go about. Me personally. I think they should have left the classifiers alone and that been a part of the game of which gun to shoot months prior to a match.(or day before) Hopalong

[Nik Habicht]

Just because Jay said that with an authoritative tone doesn't necessarily mean he is right. But presuming he is RM at Nationals again this year, we can assume that's the way the rule will be enforced there. Thanks for the heads-up.

I would not count on Nationals favoring the 8-shot. If there was ever a time where they might decide to keep the 6-round revolvers in play, it will be at PASA at a stand-alone Nats where it won't affect the other divisions. Just like they make sure the 8-major SS 1911s always have the advantage over the 10-minor SS 1911s.

He is right. It's pretty simple, really......

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.

Onus is on the competitor to register, and once registered to comply with the applicable capacity restrictions from the corresponding division appendix:

9 - Maximum ammunition capacity

No, maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload if Major PF declared, 8 if minor PF declared.

Note it specifically references "declared" not what power factor you're actually shooting.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, other-wise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

6.2.5.2 A competitor who is classified or reclassified as above must be notified as soon as possible. The Range Master’s decision on these matters is final.

It's a risky move not to change that information at registration/before firing your first shot......

[slflr]

What's an "onus"?

[pskys2]

From the DIrector of NROI:

Once you declare a power factor the only way it can be changed is if it fails that declared PF when tested at the chrono.

John

[9146gt]

Looks like the best thing to do is...no power factor. Projectile must pass thru target and backer to be scored, steel must be knocked down.Many ploblems solved.

Tom

[JakeMartens]

Looks like the best thing to do is...no power factor. Projectile must pass thru target and backer to be scored, steel must be knocked down.Many ploblems solved.

Tom

Yeah except for the whole DVC concept that this was founded on.....but hey if we are changing things why not change that and let 10 round 22 revolvers play