Carmoney Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The problem with having a HHF set by an 8 shot revolver is that anyone shooting a 6 shot revolver will have an artificially low HF on those stages. Correct, but the practical reality of that would be pretty much inconsequential. As we all know, the way the classifier system works, classifier scores with artificially low HFs wind up getting tossed out by the computer anyway. I think simply adjusting the HHFs with the assumption they are being shot with 8-shooters would be the best solution to the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Kind of reminds me of the split into Open and Limited in the early '90's. Some would have thought the world was ending. It did turn out to be a good thing though. There is a big difference between creating two divisions and letting people with different capacity guns compete in the same division. I understand the reason why this was done and single stack already has a 8 round major / 10 round minor rule so is this any different? But I want to know when can I get 13 rounds if I shoot L10 minor? How about a longer magazines for Limited and Open minor? But the angst and emotions ran high for the change. I was commenting on the reaction, not on the similarities of the issues. I was an SC at the time and it was a big issue right down to long standing competitors threatening to quit shooting. Then when Production and Limited 10 came along there were a lot of classifiers deleted and the first maximum round count per position came along set at 10 rounds. Then SS resulted in the maximum round count being put at 8 per position. So it's not a new issue of lowering round counts due to a new Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I think the BOD meeting minutes indicated that they will be replacing the pulled classifiers with new ones that will be re-tooled for 8 round revolvers. Just give them a little time.?? Which meeting? It could either be the most recent one, or the minutes from October 1, 1992. I don't remember which. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 A question here... There has been some talk of changing the classifiers or adjusting the high hit factor, how is that possible without actually putting the new classifiers into use as new ones and running through that whole process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Being as the stages are not published in advance, maybe they are planning on having several reworked classifiers at the Revolver Nationals. Reword them and give them a new number to keep them separate from the originals. Reintroduce a few more at several of the larger matches to at least get a baseline for the revolver shooters. There are several coming up with upwards of 12 revolver shooters already entered, so with a little backwards math they could come pretty close to setting the 100% level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Being as the stages are not published in advance, maybe they are planning on having several reworked classifiers at the Revolver Nationals. Reword them and give them a new number to keep them separate from the originals. Reintroduce a few more at several of the larger matches to at least get a baseline for the revolver shooters. There are several coming up with upwards of 12 revolver shooters already entered, so with a little backwards math they could come pretty close to setting the 100% level. But it's not just revolver shooters who would be impacted. Any change to a classifier has the potential to change scores for all divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Being as the stages are not published in advance, maybe they are planning on having several reworked classifiers at the Revolver Nationals. Reword them and give them a new number to keep them separate from the originals. Reintroduce a few more at several of the larger matches to at least get a baseline for the revolver shooters. There are several coming up with upwards of 12 revolver shooters already entered, so with a little backwards math they could come pretty close to setting the 100% level. But it's not just revolver shooters who would be impacted. Any change to a classifier has the potential to change scores for all divisions. Well, Maybe--- WSB modification--- DIVISION SPECIFIC RULE, Revolver Division MUST reload after 6th shot regardless of revolver model. All other divisions are unaffected by this special WSB rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Exactly, RadarTech. BOOM!! There ya go. Problem solved. (Is anybody listening at USPSA??) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 sperman made that same suggestion. I don't now if anyone from USPSA has that knowledge but it would "fix" all of the retired classifiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMartens Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Reload after six won't solve the major vs minor disparity. And, if 8 shot minor isn't equivalent to 6 shot major then it should not have been implemented. If there is no parity in classifiers then there is no parity in matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 sperman made that same suggestion. I don't now if anyone from USPSA has that knowledge but it would "fix" all of the retired classifiers. I mailed that suggestion to my AD. It seems odd to me that we've heard nothing from USPSA since the e-mail was sent out several weeks ago. Are these classifiers retired or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Being as the stages are not published in advance, maybe they are planning on having several reworked classifiers at the Revolver Nationals. Reword them and give them a new number to keep them separate from the originals. Reintroduce a few more at several of the larger matches to at least get a baseline for the revolver shooters. There are several coming up with upwards of 12 revolver shooters already entered, so with a little backwards math they could come pretty close to setting the 100% level. But it's not just revolver shooters who would be impacted. Any change to a classifier has the potential to change scores for all divisions. Well, Maybe--- WSB modification--- DIVISION SPECIFIC RULE, Revolver Division MUST reload after 6th shot regardless of revolver model. All other divisions are unaffected by this special WSB rule There are problems with that too. Because of minor scoring these people will be classified below their actual ability level, yet their extra capacity will allow them an opportunity to finish higher in the match. Limiting Revolver shooters to 6 shots before a reload is unfair to the shooter, especially on classifiers with steel. Do you limit Single Stack shooters to 8? Their extra makeup shots partially offsets the minor scoring. 19 classifiers out of 82 favor the minor guns. Only 6 of your most recent 8 are used. The whole classifiers system still favors major scoring. We need to save the classifiers we can, and reset HHF for the classifiers those that are likely to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Reload after six won't solve the major vs minor disparity. And, if 8 shot minor isn't equivalent to 6 shot major then it should not have been implemented. If there is no parity in classifiers then there is no parity in matches. I'm not sure I understand? We have two different power factors in this game -- you pick your poison and live with the limitations...... You want to shoot 8 round minor? Well you might still run into some classifiers where you'll need to reload after 6 -- stuff happens. And we deal with two different power factors pretty well by scoring the targets with slightly different point values...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I don't understand either. From Revo Division's perspective, that would solve the problem. Don't overthink it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Hey Pat.... all my higher classification scores have come from shooting minor. Including a 96.9% on Roscoe rattle. Minor just means its a little more important to watch that bump on the end of the barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I still don't see why it really matters if we shoot 6 round classifiers....still plenty of opportunity to hit no shoots and hard cover.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 WSB modification--- DIVISION SPECIFIC RULE, Revolver Division MUST reload after 6th shot regardless of revolver model. All other divisions are unaffected by this special WSB rule I'm good with this as long as it is applied universally. All stages in all matches under USPSA rules. No special rules for special people, special gear, or special stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMartens Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I don't understand either. From Revo Division's perspective, that would solve the problem. Don't overthink it. My point is don't change anything, let them shoot. If 8 shot minor is that much of a competitive advantage then there will be a lot of 6 shot equipment for sale, or the BOD can "take it back"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGMorden Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) I really don't get pulling the entire classifiers myself. The problem (in my mind) is that the HHF was set by a 6-shot revolver, so anyone shooting an 8-shot revolver will probably do REALLY well on those stages. We don't want a bunch of revolver C and B shooters all of a sudden ranking A or M because they shot the new classifiers with their new 8 shot minor gun. That said - given what a small percentage of participants are actually shooting revolvers, why don't we just say that for the time being those classifiers will not count *in revolver division*. Anyone else who shoots them they show up fine. You shoot them as revolver it will count for match score, but the classifier doesn't go in. Then, we run as many of these stages as is feasible at Revolver Nats this year (and the rest next year) and set new Revolver HHF's with the 8-shot rule in effect. Once the new HHF is set for the stage we can start counting them again. Then the problem with inflated scores is solved. Yes, 6-shot Major shooters will be at a disadvantage on those particular stages but honestly they're going to be at a disadvantage on a whole bunch of real stages too. I don't see it as a problem that their classification reflects that handicap. Edited February 25, 2014 by MGMorden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Meeting minutes for 24th February indicate that the classifiers have been re-instated until replacements are available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Meeting minutes for 24th February indicate that the classifiers have been re-instated until replacements are available. Got a link? Wonder if/when AD's will put out an email. This is great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Meeting minutes for 24th February indicate that the classifiers have been re-instated until replacements are available. Got a link? Wonder if/when AD's will put out an email. This is great! It's on the USPSA web-page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) Meeting minutes for 24th February indicate that the classifiers have been re-instated until replacements are available. Got a link? Wonder if/when AD's will put out an email.This is great! It's on the USPSA website. But I don't see a specific reference to the quote posted by Britanusa.. Edited February 28, 2014 by Chris Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Clasification UpdateMotion: To reinstate classifiers previously removed on Jan31st until suitable replacements are proposed and approved.Moved: Pres Seconded: A8 PASSEDA1 – NoA2 – YesA3 – YesA4 – YesA5 – NoA6 – YesA7 – YesA8 – YesPres – Yes From the 2/24 minutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 So any change for revo division? Reload after 6 ? Hhf adjustment ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now