Mlussoro Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 im going to start running 3 gun this next spring and wondering which is best shotgun to start with? I dont need a 3000 dollar gun, but was thinking about the new mossberg rhythm ? any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 (edited) Benelli or Versamax seem to be the popular choices but the DaVinci is out along with Beretta's new autloader. I haven't seen many Mossbergs make it through local matches, and don't see them at big matches... I took this as a "clue" when I was buying a shotgun. Edited December 23, 2013 by Moltke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdhunterman Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 The Rhythm will put you into open class with the ports on it. I would take a look at the Stoeger M3000 for a budget friendly gun. Throw a magazine tube on it and you are good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 I believe the Rhythm has been discontinued, while the JM Pro remains available. I've had near zero issues with my JM Pro 930, but did go through it fairly well and did some amount of polishing, replacement follower, mostly minor stuff..just replaced the hammer spring as a preventative measure. I'm not sure on the local match comment above, but we've got a handful of JM Pro's in my local matches, most of which do pretty well. I can't speak to the non-JMs, e.g. SPXes, etc., as I just haven't seen many of them. This past weekend saw an M3 having far more issues than the 3 JM Pros at the match; YMMV as always. There have been enough people chiming in saying they've seen JM/930s fail in some way at matches, but we've got no way to determine if even basic maintenance and cleaning was done on these, let alone anything beyond. We do have a European JM Pro owner on here that says he's made it past 100k rounds... Meanwhile, the VersaMax hasn't exactly had a flawless reputation (soft hammers, others) nor the FN SLP, etc. On a 'budget,' you've got the 930 or JM Pro, the CZ, or a MKA1919 or BR-99, the latter two put you into Open with their removable magazines. Next steps up you go into a VersaMax and SLP, the Beretta 1301, then the Benellis. Were I doing it again right now, I'd either buy the JM again (ask me in another few K rounds if I have the same opinion, right now at around 1200-1300 or so), pick up the 1301, or just spend the $$ on an M2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobS761 Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 I have a JM Pro, thinking I would be in the game money ahead. I still have it and it runs great...now. But, for what I spent on the gun, and for a gunsmith to get it right, I could have bought a used M2 and an extention tube. The moral is, put at least as much attention into your shotgun as you would your rifle. Believe me, showing up at a match with a cerakoted, all tactical bells and whistles rifle, and a shotgun that isn't reliable, just is not fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 I have a JM Pro, thinking I would be in the game money ahead. I still have it and it runs great...now. But, for what I spent on the gun, and for a gunsmith to get it right, I could have bought a used M2 and an extention tube. The moral is, put at least as much attention into your shotgun as you would your rifle. Believe me, showing up at a match with a cerakoted, all tactical bells and whistles rifle, and a shotgun that isn't reliable, just is not fun. I really wish we had the ability to 'like' posts on the BE forums... One of our 'problem JMs' was a very good local shooter who literally never cleaned the gun since buying it, ran 500+ rounds through it out of the box, then had a failure. Oops, time to clean and maintain it? (regardless of make/model) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevyoneton Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 I know it looks like a lot of money all at once but there is real truth to the saying "buy once cry once". Not to say you need to just jump in with both feet unawares, but once you have done your due diligence and made an informed decision on quality hardware, you are better off just buying it if you can swing it. For several reasons: •If you don’t stay in the game, quality stuff sells faster at a better price, and holds its’ value longer. •You will never regret having good equipment that does not nickel and dime you to death either in repairs or incremental upgrades. •Good stuff is not nearly as frustrating to work with. At my age I am willing to spend a little more not to be aggravated, and constantly wondering if I should have bought something better. •If you really take off in the sport you will have good stuff that can stay with you, and allow you to concentrate on your shooting, and not worrying about your crap equipment. •If you do want to upgrade, you can sell your old stuff in good conscience to a newb. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshxdm9 Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 I started with a versamax sportsman 26". Just added 6 rd mag eextention and fiber front sight for around $1000 total. Gun runs flawlessly and is really soft on recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philg80 Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 If we are all honest and think about it......we have ALL seen EVERY brand of gun fail in a match. Clean your guns and maintain them. Don't buy a $500-$2000 shotgun and then expect match performance out of a box of shells that cost $4.50! The list as I see it....this is based on price and then support (parts and smiths) for the gun. CZ-cheap but not too many parts 1100-cheap, parts are plentiful, loading mousetrap will remove your thumb......gas system is weak if not maintained JM or Turkey 930-hit or miss-needs to be maintained Stoeger 3000(Maybe 3500)-strong inertia system.....easy to start running with just adding a Nova extension tube Versamax-more money, easy recoil, parts are becoming more plentiful and smiths are easy to find Beretta 1301-even more money.....add a tube....polish and you should be good to go Benelli-EVERYONE will tell you to buy these......but some budgets are beer and not wine Benelli Vinci-seen them run....parts are becoming available....more expensive base gun. These are just my thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Fatboy Posted December 24, 2013 Share Posted December 24, 2013 (edited) Look at the M3000 stoeger maybe a used M1 Benelli I picked one last year for $ 600.00 Edited December 24, 2013 by 02Fatboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openclassterror Posted December 24, 2013 Share Posted December 24, 2013 +1 for Stoeger M3000. I have shot mine in every match since July I think, and run the hell out of it. For the money, don't know of a better deal. About 6 months ago the campfire discussion at our local club led 3 guys to determine that the 930 was the way to go. One guy bought the Rhythm and 2 the JM. The only one of the 3 that has not been returned to Mossberg for repairs already is the Rhythm. Both JMs had problems with the mag follower hanging up partway through the tube right out of the box. Sad part is, both waited weeks for them because they are in such high demand, ended up buying for inflated prices on gunbroker, then were disappointed. All 3 have had meltdown matches in the last 3-4 months where the shotgun quit cycling partway through. I have several thousand rounds through the Stoeger, and have only cleaned it three times, one of which was to get the metal chips out of the receiver after flaring the loading port and drilling barrel ports (I shoot open class). I have had exactly 2(!) FTFs out of 6 months use and thousands of shells, not counting low recoil slugs (it doesn't like one brand). I have NO complaints! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambluemax Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Used m1 Benellis are the best bang for the Buck tough as nails shotgun there is for 3gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyChris Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 JM Pro, cleaned it thoroughly when I first got it and haven't had a single problem with it. I can't see spending more for something that works for me and eats everything I put in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Bacus Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 (edited) Always be suspect of the claim, 'we don't know what maintenance was done, that might be why it jams". I bought my first VersaMax in April of 2012 and shot it for the rest of 2012 with no maintenance. I shot 10 or 11 matches, including the 2012 FN 3 Gun and all I did to the gun was lube it before each match. The gun was unmodified except for a Roulette Tactical +1 end cap and a Briley bolt handle. It never malfunctioned. I sold it in December 2012 and replaced it with one of the green zombie models. This one I sent to Triangle Shooting Sports for the usual mods, welded lifter, opened load port, internal smoothing and bolt lightening. When I got it back I added the Carbon Arms full length mag tube with a +1 cap. Again, flawless functioning with no maintenance. I later added a +2 end cap but did not increase the magazine spring length so it only extended about 3". After about 4 matches I had two failures for the last round in the tube to fully release into the lifter. I replaced the short mag spring with one that extended about 8" past the tube (still short of the recommended 12") and have had no problems since. So in two years with a VMT I have had a total of two malfunctions, both attributable to a under length magazine spring. Wile no gun is 100% reliable, a reliable gun will run when it is dirty. If it must be clean to work then it is not reliable. My take on the best choices for a 3 Gun shotgun are as follows... Benelli M2. Still the top of the heap, king of the mountain. I see them jam occasionally, but I think that is less the gun and more the ammo choice. Wile quick and light they do pack a kick compared to other choices. This leads shooters to choose lighter AA ammo that occasionally fails to cycle. I also see more M2 shooters have more trouble knocking plates over than any other brand of gun. Again, not the guns fault, just the choice to shoot very light loads. The most expensive gun to set up, but worth it if cost is not an issue. Benelli Vinci, VersaMax, Beretta 1301. All closely tied for second place behind the M2. The Vinci is more expensive to set up but is getting very positive reviews. The VMT and 1301 are shootable right out of the box, both can benefit from a little work but it is not mandatory. FN SLP. Once a great choice but FN changed the gas cylinder and the reliability seems to have suffered some. A nice gun but being in the same price range as the very reliable VMT and 1301 keeps it from being a good choice, at least until they solve the cylinder problem. My shooting partner has an SLP and since being worked over by C Rums it runs flawlessly. Mossberg JMT/930. This should have been a top choice but reliability is spotty. Some work, some don't. I see more of these jam in matches as compared to all of the above combined. On the other hand, I have shot with a couple from Maryland who both shoot 930's and I haven't ever seen theirs jam. Edited December 25, 2013 by T Bacus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Donald Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 I would recommend either buy an M2 and add a extension or buy the Beretta 1301 and add the extension. After you shoot 6-10 matches figure out what other modification you want/need done. Stay away from real cheap crappy ammo for matches until you know real well how it runs. The WalMart white box Winchester bulk packs are crap. Instead of $5.50 a box for the white box junk I run the Winchester AA target loads they are around $7.99 a box. For everything else you spend to shoot a match the $2.50 a box saved on crap shotgun ammo is just plain stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Can not in good conscience recommend a 930 based shotgun, a CZ or a 1100/11-87. Saving a couple hundred dollars, well, it is not worth it. M2, 1301C, Vinci, SLP, VersaMax are the current choices. There are personal preference, ergonomic, and recoil differences between these 5. Research them all and then pick your poison and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlussoro Posted December 25, 2013 Author Share Posted December 25, 2013 WOW alot of information around here thanks to everyone ! HOLY crap i think i need to go look at some shotguns LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfSpartans Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Why is it that this forum is full of articles on how to tune pistols and rifles, springs, gas systems, loads, power factor and on and on............yet if any shotgun fails to operate with EVERY LOAD it is not a good gun? It seems to be common information that too light a recoil system in a pistol can cause damage and accelerated wear and can even cause failure to return to battery or failure to strip a round from a full magazine. Some of the same issues can appear in rifle platforms. (slap a suppressor on a stock AR and watch what happens) In spite of all this there seems to be few such discussions about shotguns and the variety of ammo we feel they should consume. There are tradeoffs when we deal with machines. Know the machine and tune it for the job. Start with any good machine and you will likely be able to find happiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 I've had 1 shotgun for years. A old M1. Only time it has failed me is when I tightened the mag clamp to tight....not the guns fault. I don't 3 gun as much as some of these guys but we do have some good 3 gunners around here. Around here its pretty much a Benelli or either a Versimax or a JM, mostly benellis. I want to shoot a vinci to see if its worth me going to that over the M1. It would take a lot for me to switch. The gas guns sure do shoot softer but my Benelli just hasn't let me down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 (edited) Why is it that this forum is full of articles on how to tune pistols and rifles, springs, gas systems, loads, power factor and on and on............yet if any shotgun fails to operate with EVERY LOAD it is not a good gun? That is actually a very good question that many new to 3Gun don't understand. For pistol, we typically tune it for one load, very specifically, since it is small, less accurate and needs to be shot at high speed. For the rifle, it is either one or two loads, the heavier load for long range is not shot much, so we tune for the lighter "hoser" load and don't worry much about the heavier load, which is usually a PF jump from about 165 to 190. The shotgun...a very different approach. Most of us shoot factory ammo, and even if we do reload, it is more expensive than the pistol or rifle ammo. Sure, at majors, you should be shooting good birdshot: Federal Premium, Rem STS or Win AAs. However, some, to conserve cash and their match stash, DO shoot cheap gun club loads for local matches. Therefore, if you have to run "good stuff" for practice and locals, you just wasted the few hundred dollars you saved on the cheaper shotgun! BUT, we also need to be able to shoot buckshot and slugs, which have different recoil impulses. Then again, some carry 2 or more types of birdshot. For instance I carry my standard load, plus some sporting Clays loads which are 200 fps faster, some spreaders and some heavy field loads, 2 kinds of buck and 2 kinds of slugs, and even some turkey loads. I don't always use them, but when you "need" those loads, it is nice to have them and they have paid off on the scorecard many times. I have given out probably 30 to 40 rounds of specialty ammo to squadmates during majors each year, they are always thankful. The variation, in terms of PF, goes from about 450 to 1200! I run 9mm at 135, but no way I would run even a 200 PF load through my 9mm, much less a 360! The shotgun, I might need that wide range on one stage. So, while the 1100 is a great clay target gun, and the 930 is a fine shotgun for some tasks as well, their inability to eat the wider range of loads makes them a non-starter for 3Gun. If you add up the ammo cost, it is obvious that saving say $300 on a shotgun that can only run a narrow range of loads will cost you $20 to $40 a case more. 10 cases, you just paid for the better shotgun. Pretty simple if you think it through. Edited December 25, 2013 by MarkCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 So, while the 1100 is a great clay target gun, and the 930 is a fine shotgun for some tasks as well, their inability to eat the wider range of loads makes them a non-starter for 3Gun. If you add up the ammo cost, it is obvious that saving say $300 on a shotgun that can only run a narrow range of loads will cost you $20 to $40 a case more. 10 cases, you just paid for the better shotgun. Pretty simple if you think it through. What is the 'inability to eat the wider range of loads' you're claiming for the JM vs virtually any other gas autoloader? I can run the cheap 1145 FPS birdshot in mine all day long, not something I've seen many SLP owners do, for example.. Liked the rest of the post, but lost on this one.. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 (edited) I am talking from 2.5 dram to MAX dram back to back. Sure some are better than others. I've seen M2s be jam-o-matics, but not often and JMs that ran like a top, but again, not often long term. I had to do some adjustment on my SLP to get it to run everything, but once broken in and with some spring adjustment and such, it ran like a top from about 1K to 7K rounds. Most of the local JMs have run 2.75 to 3 dram loads out of the box, but started to have issues around the 1500 round mark. I have a beautiful Browning Golden Clays, runs like a top, provided I stay in the range of 2.75 to 3.25 dram, outside of that, not so wonderful, but for what it was made to do, it does it better than any of the 5 I mentioned. Just my opinion, and we are not in court, so it is still free. Edited December 25, 2013 by MarkCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Not to pile on, but I would rather see a new 3Gunner buy a $150 pump from the Pawn shop and use that while saving up if need be. At our local matches, I have been giving shooters the option to not shoot the shotgun if they want. That helped a few guys get started and just recently, 3 of them have been able to get one of the fab 5. The frustration of a shotgun that does not run, especially when most new shooters don't get the shotgun, is just too discouraging. There are at least 4 local shooters who went out and bought 930JMs to "get started", 2 pawned them off on other new shooters, one is on its 4th shooter now. One got so frustrated with his $1500 930JM which was only in his hadns for about 4 moths out of the 10 he owned it, that he gave up on 3Gun altogether. There are just so many other things to do in 3Gun that trying to get a shotgun running as a newbie is not worth it. I am sure if I handed anyone of those local malfunctioning 930JMs to Jerry, or Pat, or Kurt, that they would have them running like a top at a match...if they had to. But those are seasoned pros for which the majority of the game is instinctual at this point, not newbies starting out. Equipment does not make winners, but it sure can make losers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinT Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 I would like to add that every time I see a 930 JM my instinctive action is to look around for a torch so I can cut it in half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlussoro Posted December 25, 2013 Author Share Posted December 25, 2013 so hard to choose, why does it seem like most of these guns have MAJOR issues? is that cuz they are stock or because people mess with them to much and not by the right person? I guess next is that some guns will put you in a different division correct? so what divisions are there and what do most suggest for a new 3gunner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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