Two Stages Same Bay - is this a DQ?

[Nik Habicht]

Yes DQ if no Make Ready from RO

(from USPSA rules:)

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct

command issued by, a Range Officer.

(Edited to add: I agree with JFlowers comment though about disliking these type stages.)

BS! If you're having the shooter reload and move to the second stage, then you haven't been able to give the "Range is Clear command." Hence, the shooter is still operating under the direction of the RO who first told him to "Make Ready" in the pit, and such may handle to his heart's content, as long as he doesn't break another safety rule.

If you don't want him to handle, then have him unload and show clear.......

One smart way to do that is to have the second stage be an unloaded start -- therefore you complete the first stage as normal, have the shooter unload, call it clear, and then give the Make Ready command again for the second stage....

[Nik Habicht]

Some folks are over-complicating the issue at hand. This is clearly not a DQ'able offense. According to Rule 8.3.8 the phrase “Range Is Clear” is what declares the end of the COF. Between "Make Ready" and until the RO says "Range is Clear", the shooter (in a safe manner) can pull his/her gun out of the holster to check it between strings of fire.

Interesting,

So you finish stage one, the RO gives, if you are finished, Reload if necessary and holster, you holster and start moving across the bay. You can just take your gun out of the holster at any point as long as you don't break any of the other rules?

I do tend to ask the RO if I can take the gun out once we are in the new start position.

Technically, Yes -- but don't scare the RO. He's volunteering his time, so be nice about it......

[bagdad45]

I RO'd a bay at 2012 Nationals that was two stages. Start position of second was at the end point of stage 1. But to avoid this problem we staggered shooters. Finish 1 ULSC, shooter is in the hole on second stage. That gives time for them to regroup if they blew the first stage and actually allows the bay to run faster. You are not waiting for the same shooter to go through the start rituals, chase down ammo/mags if necessary. Also scores faster because same shooter is not trying to verify scores on two stages.

In this instance I say no DQ. Shooter was loaded, escorted to the new start position and technically still under the make ready command IMO. I think it is always good for the shooter to ask the RO if they are able to handle the gun in this type of situation. That goes for whether the gun was loaded or not. You never want to get DQ for misunderstanding of where you think you are in regards to range commands.

[GuildSF4]

Yes DQ if no Make Ready from RO

(from USPSA rules:)

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct

command issued by, a Range Officer.

(Edited to add: I agree with JFlowers comment though about disliking these type stages.)

BS! If you're having the shooter reload and move to the second stage, then you haven't been able to give the "Range is Clear command." Hence, the shooter is still operating under the direction of the RO who first told him to "Make Ready" in the pit, and such may handle to his heart's content, as long as he doesn't break another safety rule.

If you don't want him to handle, then have him unload and show clear.......

One smart way to do that is to have the second stage be an unloaded start -- therefore you complete the first stage as normal, have the shooter unload, call it clear, and then give the Make Ready command again for the second stage....

You may have missed my later post. (#24 about 8.3.6.1)

[shootingchef]

See this is why I don't like the two stage, hot move setup. The shooter is carrying a hot gun; therefore they can never NOT be under the supervision of the RO and the "Make Ready" is assumed to have happened since the gun is loaded. In this case I would argue that due to those conditions, the action is not a DQ. However as an RO I would admonish the shooter to leave the gun be during the movement between stages and once in the "Starting spot" the action is no different than any other after a "Make Ready".

Why, it's either safe and legal or unsafe and illegal? If you think that he is within the rules why do you feel the need to "admonish" him?

Should another shooter then "admonish" you for wearing shoes to the range?

This is why I like 3 gun, big boy rules apply and most people wont run for a book and point at rule 7.&.1.Z because they think if the DQ someone they will finish higher.

Comments like this are troll like. I've seen enough cheating and whinning in 3 gun that it leaves a real bad taste in my mouth.

[Sarge]

See this is why I don't like the two stage, hot move setup. The shooter is carrying a hot gun; therefore they can never NOT be under the supervision of the RO and the "Make Ready" is assumed to have happened since the gun is loaded. In this case I would argue that due to those conditions, the action is not a DQ. However as an RO I would admonish the shooter to leave the gun be during the movement between stages and once in the "Starting spot" the action is no different than any other after a "Make Ready".

Why, it's either safe and legal or unsafe and illegal? If you think that he is within the rules why do you feel the need to "admonish" him?

Should another shooter then "admonish" you for wearing shoes to the range?

This is why I like 3 gun, big boy rules apply and most people wont run for a book and point at rule 7.&.1.Z because they think if the DQ someone they will finish higher.

Comments like this are troll like. I've seen enough cheating and whinning in 3 gun that it leaves a real bad taste in my mouth.

I agree. I have never DQ'd a shooter in order to beat him.

[ClutchUSMC]

See this is why I don't like the two stage, hot move setup. The shooter is carrying a hot gun; therefore they can never NOT be under the supervision of the RO and the "Make Ready" is assumed to have happened since the gun is loaded. In this case I would argue that due to those conditions, the action is not a DQ. However as an RO I would admonish the shooter to leave the gun be during the movement between stages and once in the "Starting spot" the action is no different than any other after a "Make Ready".

Why, it's either safe and legal or unsafe and illegal? If you think that he is within the rules why do you feel the need to "admonish" him?

Should another shooter then "admonish" you for wearing shoes to the range?

This is why I like 3 gun, big boy rules apply and most people wont run for a book and point at rule 7.&.1.Z because they think if the DQ someone they will finish higher.

Comments like this are troll like. I've seen enough cheating and whinning in 3 gun that it leaves a real bad taste in my mouth.

So then you think the RO should dress people down for following the rules?

And what does that statement add to the discussion?

[ClutchUSMC]

See this is why I don't like the two stage, hot move setup. The shooter is carrying a hot gun; therefore they can never NOT be under the supervision of the RO and the "Make Ready" is assumed to have happened since the gun is loaded. In this case I would argue that due to those conditions, the action is not a DQ. However as an RO I would admonish the shooter to leave the gun be during the movement between stages and once in the "Starting spot" the action is no different than any other after a "Make Ready".

Why, it's either safe and legal or unsafe and illegal? If you think that he is within the rules why do you feel the need to "admonish" him?

Should another shooter then "admonish" you for wearing shoes to the range?

This is why I like 3 gun, big boy rules apply and most people wont run for a book and point at rule 7.&.1.Z because they think if the DQ someone they will finish higher.

Comments like this are troll like. I've seen enough cheating and whinning in 3 gun that it leaves a real bad taste in my mouth.

I agree. I have never DQ'd a shooter in order to beat him.

I wasn't implying that you had. But I have seen with my own eyes, and been the victim of, competitors trying with all their might to get other shooters DQ that were not working the match at all. Pulling out rule books and arguing with officials. The 4-5 times I've seen it, it has always been at a pistol match.

[ktm300]

I wasn't implying that you had. But I have seen with my own eyes, and been the victim of, competitors trying with all their might to get other shooters DQ that were not working the match at all. Pulling out rule books and arguing with officials. The 4-5 times I've seen it, it has always been at a pistol match.

Wow, I go to a lot of pistol matches +- 50 a year, some big, some small, and have never seen that type of stuff.

[Sarge]

See this is why I don't like the two stage, hot move setup. The shooter is carrying a hot gun; therefore they can never NOT be under the supervision of the RO and the "Make Ready" is assumed to have happened since the gun is loaded. In this case I would argue that due to those conditions, the action is not a DQ. However as an RO I would admonish the shooter to leave the gun be during the movement between stages and once in the "Starting spot" the action is no different than any other after a "Make Ready".

Why, it's either safe and legal or unsafe and illegal? If you think that he is within the rules why do you feel the need to "admonish" him?

Should another shooter then "admonish" you for wearing shoes to the range?

This is why I like 3 gun, big boy rules apply and most people wont run for a book and point at rule 7.&.1.Z because they think if the DQ someone they will finish higher.

Comments like this are troll like. I've seen enough cheating and whinning in 3 gun that it leaves a real bad taste in my mouth.

I agree. I have never DQ'd a shooter in order to beat him.

I wasn't implying that you had. But I have seen with my own eyes, and been the victim of, competitors trying with all their might to get other shooters DQ that were not working the match at all. Pulling out rule books and arguing with officials. The 4-5 times I've seen it, it has always been at a pistol match.

you my friend need to find better places to shoot. That sucks.

[HI5-O]

At the 2013 Open Nationals there were multiple stages in the same bay. The way they ran it was the shooter made ready and shot one stage then the RO said to make ready for the next stage then we moved to the next stage. At the next stage, I asked about taking a sight picture and the RO reminded me I was still under the make ready command.

Only problem I saw was the shooter had the holster locked when moving to the next stage and when the start signal sounded, the shooter had a problem drawing the gun since the holster was locked. FYI, the shooter locked the holster on their own and was not told to lock it.

[waktasz]

We do this often. One thing I like to do is to give the Make Ready command again at the second stage start position. Sometimes this reminds people to unlock the holster, top off if they need to or take a sight picture or whatever. It also eliminates problems like we have in this thread.

[remoandiris]

At the 2013 Open Nationals there were multiple stages in the same bay. The way they ran it was the shooter made ready and shot one stage then the RO said to make ready for the next stage then we moved to the next stage. At the next stage, I asked about taking a sight picture and the RO reminded me I was still under the make ready command.

Only problem I saw was the shooter had the holster locked when moving to the next stage and when the start signal sounded, the shooter had a problem drawing the gun since the holster was locked. FYI, the shooter locked the holster on their own and was not told to lock it.

I RO'd one of those bays at the Lim Nats. Once the shooter was at the start position for the 2d stage, I said MR so they could take a sight pic. Those who did were fine. Those who didn't well, let's just say a few forgot to unlock their holster and I knew they forgot. But it is not my place to coach them no matter how badly I wanted to. At least there were no major wedgies.

[Chris iliff]

At the 2013 Open Nationals there were multiple stages in the same bay. The way they ran it was the shooter made ready and shot one stage then the RO said to make ready for the next stage then we moved to the next stage. At the next stage, I asked about taking a sight picture and the RO reminded me I was still under the make ready command.

Only problem I saw was the shooter had the holster locked when moving to the next stage and when the start signal sounded, the shooter had a problem drawing the gun since the holster was locked. FYI, the shooter locked the holster on their own and was not told to lock it.

I RO'd one of those bays at the Lim Nats. Once the shooter was at the start position for the 2d stage, I said MR so they could take a sight pic. Those who did were fine. Those who didn't well, let's just say a few forgot to unlock their holster and I knew they forgot. But it is not my place to coach them no matter how badly I wanted to. At least there were no major wedgies.

This is why I hate two stages in one bay. Completely messes with my routine. I've locked the holster before at a state and got the "wedgie".

[Sarge]

I did just that at the Indiana sectional a few years ago. There were three stages in a row if I recall that were in the same bay area

[ac4wordplay]

Some folks are over-complicating the issue at hand. This is clearly not a DQ'able offense. According to Rule 8.3.8 the phrase “Range Is Clear” is what declares the end of the COF. Between "Make Ready" and until the RO says "Range is Clear", the shooter (in a safe manner) can pull his/her gun out of the holster to check it between strings of fire.

Interesting,

So you finish stage one, the RO gives, if you are finished, Reload if necessary and holster, you holster and start moving across the bay. You can just take your gun out of the holster at any point as long as you don't break any of the other rules?

I do tend to ask the RO if I can take the gun out once we are in the new start position.

In the case above (part made bold/underlined by me), "holster" was the most recent RO command given (and satisfied). Without any other RO command yet given, to draw the firearm seems to be a violation of RO command.

Once in the second stage's start location, the RO can use the "make ready" command to release the competitor from the preceding "holster" command.

Two stages in one bay (and moving between them while loaded) repeatedly causes confusion to staff and competitors. Nik's idea (unloaded start on second stage) works, but aside from that... two stages in one bay should be avoided if at all possible (unless/until USPSA provides clear procedural requirements).

Respectfully,

ac

[Nik Habicht]

Yes DQ if no Make Ready from RO

(from USPSA rules:)

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct

command issued by, a Range Officer.

(Edited to add: I agree with JFlowers comment though about disliking these type stages.)

BS! If you're having the shooter reload and move to the second stage, then you haven't been able to give the "Range is Clear command." Hence, the shooter is still operating under the direction of the RO who first told him to "Make Ready" in the pit, and such may handle to his heart's content, as long as he doesn't break another safety rule.

If you don't want him to handle, then have him unload and show clear.......

One smart way to do that is to have the second stage be an unloaded start -- therefore you complete the first stage as normal, have the shooter unload, call it clear, and then give the Make Ready command again for the second stage....

You may have missed my later post. (#24 about 8.3.6.1)

I reply in linear order when I get home -- so I read your initial post, and responded to it.....

.....then eventual;ly got to your later posts.... :D

[Chris iliff]

I did just that at the Indiana sectional a few years ago. There were three stages in a row if I recall that were in the same bay area

That's the one. Didn't feel comfortable, locked holster, got some abbreviated range command at middle speed shoot, yanked myself off the ground on draw. I hate running hot between stages. Hate hate hate.

As an RO, I prefer to never run a shooter hot. You get the ULASC after one and the LAMR at the next.

I wish some thought would go into some range commands. Or, some common sense rules regarding running shooters HOT/ running two stages at once etc....

Edited October 16, 2013 by Chris iliff

[motosapiens]

I wish some thought would go into some range commands. Or, some common sense rules regarding running shooters HOT/ running two stages at once etc....

First time I've ever run 2 stages in one bay was this year's L10 nats. Pretty much a non-issue for me (normal non-race holster). I put my gun away after the first stage in condition to be drawn again. I did do a press-check on at least one of them to verify that I had a round in the chamber, and then checked the mag again. I shoot alot of steel challenge tho, and in Outer Limits, we reload, then move back to the start position 3 times. Maybe that makes it easier for me. Fwiw, I saw a total of zero competitors have any issue whatsoever with the 2-stages in one bay thing. Maybe I was on a super-smart squad tho.

[Nik Habicht]

I did just that at the Indiana sectional a few years ago. There were three stages in a row if I recall that were in the same bay area

That's the one. Didn't feel comfortable, locked holster, got some abbreviated range command at middle speed shoot, yanked myself off the ground on draw. I hate running hot between stages. Hate hate hate.

As an RO, I prefer to never run a shooter hot. You get the ULASC after one and the LAMR at the next.

I wish some thought would go into some range commands. Or, some common sense rules regarding running shooters HOT/ running two stages at once etc....

Honestly the rules exist for doing it. If you master the rulebook, and ask the occasional question of an RM, or RMI, you should be able to work anything out. It just depends on how much work you want to put in during match prep and set-up.

Shadowing George Jones at a Howard Thompson match directed section match a few years ago taught me that if you do the work prior to the first shot going off, the RM and MD should have very little to do, other than socialize, and watch the match come off......

But that takes planning, a thorough staff walkthrough, and identification/resolution of any potential pitfalls.....

[Flexmoney]

Best practice -----> use the normal range commands to properly END the first stage. ------> Travel, or whatever, to the next stage's start position. ------> Give the normal range commands to start the next stage.

K.I.S.S.

[ktm300]

Best practice -----> use the normal range commands to properly END the first stage. ------> Travel, or whatever, to the next stage's start position. ------> Give the normal range commands to start the next stage.

K.I.S.S.

It would be nice if the extra time would not stack up squads on the stage. As it was we were almost always a squad behind no matter how hard or efficient we worked.

In our situation there was a stage before us with the same total round count, zero activators, 2 steel, 1 stage brief, and a 3 minute walk through. They could turn shooters in < 2 minutes. We had 2 stage briefs, a stupid IPSC activator rule to explain, 6 minute walk through, 4 activators (two of which were to hard to set for most of the shooters, and some ROs that dropped by to help), 6 steel, and the same RO count (3). If everything went perfect we were +- 2 1/2 minutes a shooter. If Somebody shoots the cable on an activator, blows up a stick on a swinger, shoots up the wall, etc it got ugly. That extra 15 to 20 seconds a shooter to ULSC then MR would have pushed us close to 3 minutes which would have been a killer.

Funny, the RM started us the first day with 2 RO's it got very ugly in a hurry. In the first 4 squads we were an hour behind schedule. Some of it due to equipment stuff but most just the time it took to run the stage. After we caught up, and got a 3rd RO we could stay on schedule but we could not keep up with the stage in front of us. They would send us 12 shooters and by the time we got done with the 6 minute walk through we were 3 to 4 shooters behind them.

I will however start the second stage with a make ready from now on if put in the same situation.

[Flexmoney]

Best practice -----> use the normal range commands to properly END the first stage. ------> Travel, or whatever, to the next stage's start position. ------> Give the normal range commands to start the next stage.

K.I.S.S.

It would be nice if the extra time would not stack up squads on the stage. As it was we were almost always a squad behind no matter how hard or efficient we worked.

There is no extra time. I've run multiple stages on the same bay at countless matches (through Level III), as CRO and as Match Director/Stage Designer.

There are certainly things that will back a bay up (sounds like you had a few of them), but keeping it simple by clearing the shooter between stages on a bay is not one of them. People understand it. No questions, no explanations, no wondering, no pausing to think about it...etc. they get it done and get on with it.

As Hans and Franz would say... hear me now and believe me latter.

[ktm300]

We had a lot of non English speakers and some did an ULASC. We just switched to the normal commands and went on. It felt (no data to back it up) like it took longer.

As a shooter I would like to have an ULASC - MR.

[GuildSF4]

You may have missed my later post. (#24 about 8.3.6.1)

I reply in linear order when I get home -- so I read your initial post, and responded to it.....

.....then eventual;ly got to your later posts.... :D

No problem