Two Stages Same Bay - is this a DQ?

[ktm300]

The setup is two short courses in one bay. You finish the first COF and the RO gets you to reload and holster. You reload, holster and move to stage two and want to make sure your gun is unlocked and take it out of the holster about 2" but the trigger guard clears the holster. Should this be a DQ?

[ckell101]

_{To my understanding and please corrent me if I am wrong, but it is if the muzzle leaves the holster or not that will dictate your trip to DQ town}

[BritinUSA]

Some holsters do not cover the muzzle, I think that if the trigger is visible then its a DQ.

[gng4life]

Did the RO give the next "Make Ready" command for the second stage?

[Sarge]

I think if they had you reload for the next stage that implies make ready. But they didn't say make ready. The command should have been the same as used for multiple strings. " reload for the next stage and move to the start location and make ready" is how I would have briefed shooters.

[JFlowers]

See this is why I don't like the two stage, hot move setup. The shooter is carrying a hot gun; therefore they can never NOT be under the supervision of the RO and the "Make Ready" is assumed to have happened since the gun is loaded. In this case I would argue that due to those conditions, the action is not a DQ. However as an RO I would admonish the shooter to leave the gun be during the movement between stages and once in the "Starting spot" the action is no different than any other after a "Make Ready".

[GuildSF4]

Yes DQ if no Make Ready from RO

(from USPSA rules:)

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct

command issued by, a Range Officer.

(Edited to add: I agree with JFlowers comment though about disliking these type stages.)

Edited October 14, 2013 by GuildSF4

[ClutchUSMC]

See this is why I don't like the two stage, hot move setup. The shooter is carrying a hot gun; therefore they can never NOT be under the supervision of the RO and the "Make Ready" is assumed to have happened since the gun is loaded. In this case I would argue that due to those conditions, the action is not a DQ. However as an RO I would admonish the shooter to leave the gun be during the movement between stages and once in the "Starting spot" the action is no different than any other after a "Make Ready".

Why, it's either safe and legal or unsafe and illegal? If you think that he is within the rules why do you feel the need to "admonish" him?

Should another shooter then "admonish" you for wearing shoes to the range?

This is why I like 3 gun, big boy rules apply and most people wont run for a book and point at rule 7.&.1.Z because they think if the DQ someone they will finish higher.

[ClutchUSMC]

Yes DQ if no Make Ready frpm RO

(from USPSA rules:)

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command

issued by, a Range Officer.

How did his gun get hot if he wasn't issued the make ready command?

[GuildSF4]

Yes DQ if no Make Ready frpm RO

(from USPSA rules:)

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command

issued by, a Range Officer.

How did his gun get hot if he wasn't issued the make ready command?

I agree that it is implied and should have been stated if it wasn't. I am just showing the rule.

[gng4life]

Yes DQ if no Make Ready frpm RO

(from USPSA rules:)

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command

issued by, a Range Officer.

How did his gun get hot if he wasn't issued the make ready command?

"If finished, reload if needed and holster"...then guide the shooter to the next stage.

[Babaganoosh]

Why not ask the RO if you can check your holster like that?

[Sarge]

Why not ask the RO if you can check your holster like that?

exactly! I do this on multi string classifiers even after they have me reload if necessary and make ready for the next string. Before I take a sight picture for following strings I turn my head and verify I am still at make ready

[gng4life]

Why not ask the RO if you can check your holster like that?

Bingo...the RO should be able to issue you advice/commands to cover this.

We had several "combo" stages at the Nationals this year and every one we ran was very good about it and either waited for the Make Ready a second time or asked about it.

[EkuJustice]

I would say no dq as it would still be under the cof which begins at make ready and ends with range is clear. Since there was a loaded gun the Ro shouldn't call range clear unless the gun is clear. I am not a fan of running the gun hot between stages and personally unload and show clear between the stages anyway as I stick to my routine getting ready for the next stage

[Carnifex]

I would say no dq as it would still be under the cof which begins at make ready and ends with range is clear. Since there was a loaded gun the Ro shouldn't call range clear unless the gun is clear. I am not a fan of running the gun hot between stages and personally unload and show clear between the stages anyway as I stick to my routine getting ready for the next stage

If the RO says "reload if necessary for next string" and I ULSC, am I disobeying an RO? Do you ask for permission to ULSC and then make ready again?

[Cy Soto]

Some folks are over-complicating the issue at hand. This is clearly not a DQ'able offense. According to Rule 8.3.8 the phrase “Range Is Clear” is what declares the end of the COF. Between "Make Ready" and until the RO says "Range is Clear", the shooter (in a safe manner) can pull his/her gun out of the holster to check it between strings of fire.

[ktm300]

Some folks are over-complicating the issue at hand. This is clearly not a DQ'able offense. According to Rule 8.3.8 the phrase “Range Is Clear” is what declares the end of the COF. Between "Make Ready" and until the RO says "Range is Clear", the shooter (in a safe manner) can pull his/her gun out of the holster to check it between strings of fire.

Interesting,

So you finish stage one, the RO gives, if you are finished, Reload if necessary and holster, you holster and start moving across the bay. You can just take your gun out of the holster at any point as long as you don't break any of the other rules?

I do tend to ask the RO if I can take the gun out once we are in the new start position.

[sperman]

I would say no dq as it would still be under the cof which begins at make ready and ends with range is clear. Since there was a loaded gun the Ro shouldn't call range clear unless the gun is clear. I am not a fan of running the gun hot between stages and personally unload and show clear between the stages anyway as I stick to my routine getting ready for the next stage

Some folks are over-complicating the issue at hand. This is clearly not a DQ'able offense. According to Rule 8.3.8 the phrase “Range Is Clear” is what declares the end of the COF. Between "Make Ready" and until the RO says "Range is Clear", the shooter (in a safe manner) can pull his/her gun out of the holster to check it between strings of fire.

I agree with both of these.

[sperman]

Some folks are over-complicating the issue at hand. This is clearly not a DQ'able offense. According to Rule 8.3.8 the phrase “Range Is Clear” is what declares the end of the COF. Between "Make Ready" and until the RO says "Range is Clear", the shooter (in a safe manner) can pull his/her gun out of the holster to check it between strings of fire.

Interesting,

So you finish stage one, the RO gives, if you are finished, Reload if necessary and holster, you holster and start moving across the bay. You can just take your gun out of the holster at any point as long as you don't break any of the other rules?

I do tend to ask the RO if I can take the gun out once we are in the new start position.

Yes. If you don't like it, don't have the shooter stay hot between stages. If you want to issue a DQ, what rule would you use? 10.5.1 won't work, because you are still under the supervision of the RO. If not, then the RO screwed up by letting you walk around unsupervised with a loaded firearm.

[ktm300]

Did not want to issue a DQ and didn't, just wondering if I did the correct thing. Sounds like I did (;-))

[Sarge]

8.3.6.1

When conducting Standard Exercises, Range Officials may

issue other interim commands on completion of the first string,

in order to prepare the competitor for the second and subsequent

strings. (e.g. “Reload if required and holster”). This option may

also be applied when two or more courses of fire share a

common shooting bay or area.

Sounds like shooter was still at MR.

[EkuJustice]

If the RO says "reload if necessary for next string" and I ULSC, am I disobeying an RO? Do you ask for permission to ULSC and then make ready again?

No I do not ask permission I will simply state that I will be doing.

Edited October 14, 2013 by EkuJustice

[GuildSF4]

8.3.6.1

When conducting Standard Exercises, Range Officials may

issue other interim commands on completion of the first string,

in order to prepare the competitor for the second and subsequent

strings. (e.g. “Reload if required and holster”). This option may

also be applied when two or more courses of fire share a

common shooting bay or area.

Sounds like shooter was still at MR.

Ok, missed that. I agree.

[gng4life]

Did not want to issue a DQ and didn't, just wondering if I did the correct thing. Sounds like I did (;-))

Yeah, I think you did the right thing also. It would be better if this situation would be better clarified in the next rulebook since this really is up in the air. The RMI I worked with said the same thing but he wanted everyone to still issue another MR at the start position of the second stage for several other reasons - not really to say the shooter is outside the RIC.

Multiple stages in single bays happen at every level and I've seen it every LII and above match I've been to lately.

However, I would still ask the RO just to avoid any potential issues - it only takes a few seconds and almost guarantees a good outcome instead of the opposite.