HI5-O Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 No. Maybe I've been doing it wrong (hand position) all this time, nah but no, wouldn't let him start like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 Watching that video it is clear he does not have any physical difficulty that results in that abnormal start position. I would correct him on that before I would start him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 I hope I never shoot a match were you guys are ROs ... . I assume he has rarely if ever been called on this since as a GM I'm sure he would have developed a different technique if it happened regularly. Not saying you guys are wrong but I see LOTs of top shooters with hand positions like this. My start position (which was Recommended to me by more than one M/GM shooter) is to have my forearm touching the bottom of the grip where the mag is and my wrist touching the bottom of the holster. While this does result in my hand being closer to the holster the main reason I was taught to do this was to have a repeatable index point at the start of every draw ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 Ken, this guy's forearm is NOT touching the bottom of the grip. His hand is damn near on an equal plane as the grip. I have RO'd several lvl 2 and above matches. Had several super squads comes thru. NEVER seen a shooter start ANYWHERE NEAR this position IF the WSB says arms hanging naturally at sides. Was stated in the opening post this wasn't a USPSA stage/start. To answer the OP's question, no, I wouild not start the shooter if his arm was in the position and the WSB said hanging naturally at sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawboy Posted September 22, 2013 Share Posted September 22, 2013 I would be more concerned with making sure he holsters that gun before starting to turn around. BOOM! +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted September 22, 2013 Share Posted September 22, 2013 Tori does it all the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted September 22, 2013 Share Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) Nope, she ain't even close to what the original video shows. In fact, her gun side arm is almost hyperextended, She could actually get closer by relaxing. Edited September 22, 2013 by Chris iliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 (edited) 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. On the second stage of the video, she is most likely not in compliance with 8.2.2. Her hands are at a right angle to her wrists and she is crouching (not erect). Unless the WSB start position said arms extended with palms horizontal while crouching, as an RO I would not have started her. The rules are the same for everyone. They should be enforced the same for everyone. Edited September 23, 2013 by Flatland Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Bill, I went back and looked at it again and you're right, his hand is way up next to the holster and his elbow is clearly bent, not relaxed at the sides ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 BTW, that video looks like the 2013 Florida Open, my first Level II match ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glandry51 Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. On the second stage of the video, she is most likely not in compliance with 8.2.2. Her hands are at a right angle to her wrists and she is crouching (not erect). Unless the WSB start position said arms extended with palms horizontal while crouching, as an RO I would not have started her. The rules are the same for everyone. They should be enforced the same for everyone. +1 for that!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. On the second stage of the video, she is most likely not in compliance with 8.2.2. Her hands are at a right angle to her wrists and she is crouching (not erect). Unless the WSB start position said arms extended with palms horizontal while crouching, as an RO I would not have started her. The rules are the same for everyone. They should be enforced the same for everyone. +1 for that!!!but we all no they are not being enforced the same or shooters like her would not still be doing it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Sorry, his elbow is bent too much for that to be "naturally hanging." I would ask him if he was ready, given no response, I would tell him to relax his arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. On the second stage of the video, she is most likely not in compliance with 8.2.2. Her hands are at a right angle to her wrists and she is crouching (not erect). Unless the WSB start position said arms extended with palms horizontal while crouching, as an RO I would not have started her. The rules are the same for everyone. They should be enforced the same for everyone. +1 for that!!!but we all no they are not being enforced the same or shooters like her would not still be doing it! For those that are enforcing the rules, GOOD JOB and please continue to do so. And for those ROs that have not been enforcing the rules, maybe a few threads like this one will help to change the way they look at things in the future. We can only do what we can do. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg308 Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glandry51 Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. On the second stage of the video, she is most likely not in compliance with 8.2.2. Her hands are at a right angle to her wrists and she is crouching (not erect). Unless the WSB start position said arms extended with palms horizontal while crouching, as an RO I would not have started her. The rules are the same for everyone. They should be enforced the same for everyone. +1 for that!!!but we all no they are not being enforced the same or shooters like her would not still be doing it! AGREED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 Don't want to go off on a tangent but the real question is for something like her hand and stance start position which is way off from what the rules call for, why do ROs let her and other "name" shooters continue to do this? We don't do ourselves any favors when we stray from "the rules are the same for everyone" .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 At a L3 or Nationals, is how much leeway to allow with this something that the RM discusses with the RO's? I've never been to one, let alone RO'd at one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted September 24, 2013 Share Posted September 24, 2013 I would not let the gentleman in the first video start like that, but, as was stated previously above, one should not view the video and assume that is what he does in a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted September 24, 2013 Share Posted September 24, 2013 (edited) At a L3 or Nationals, is how much leeway to allow with this something that the RM discusses with the RO's? I've never been to one, let alone RO'd at one. Yesterday Troy told us to be polite and follow the rules. That is pretty much what any RM has said at any match I've worked. There are times ROs miss something...for whatever reason. I doubt it is done on purpose. One 1 person ever gave me crap when I corrected them on starting position/procedures. That person has a reputation for being an ass. BTW, I RO'd Tori today and her hands relaxed at sides position was fine. Edited September 24, 2013 by remoandiris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 24, 2013 Share Posted September 24, 2013 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. On the second stage of the video, she is most likely not in compliance with 8.2.2. Her hands are at a right angle to her wrists and she is crouching (not erect). Unless the WSB start position said arms extended with palms horizontal while crouching, as an RO I would not have started her. The rules are the same for everyone. They should be enforced the same for everyone. +1 for that!!!but we all no they are not being enforced the same or shooters like her would not still be doing it! For those that are enforcing the rules, GOOD JOB and please continue to do so. And for those ROs that have not been enforcing the rules, maybe a few threads like this one will help to change the way they look at things in the future. We can only do what we can do. Bill I'm probably more concerned that start positions are consistently enforced at an individual match, rather than being consistent from match to match..... Then again, I'll write start positions like: Standing anywhere in free fire zone, facing in any direction with hand position of shooter's choice..... or Standing, facing downrange, hands on marks..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 24, 2013 Share Posted September 24, 2013 At a L3 or Nationals, is how much leeway to allow with this something that the RM discusses with the RO's? I've never been to one, let alone RO'd at one. There's certainly a conversation about consistency..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted September 24, 2013 Share Posted September 24, 2013 To the person who posted video of Tori Nonaka, her position is different than the other shooter's position. It's . . . Odd, but not illegal. I've never RO'd a Nationals, but I've shot five Single Stack Nats, and they're pretty consistent. Really depends on the RO, to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted September 24, 2013 Author Share Posted September 24, 2013 (edited) Let's not talk about Tori or anyone else as that will get this thread closed. In short, I believe anyone who has support hand/arm that far in front of the body is not in a legal position and should not be allowed to start the COF. And, yes, she has corrected her stance as that can be viewed in a couple of her nationals videos. The reason of my posting the video-scenario was to generate a discussion for ruling-interpretation and consistency. I have heard people who don't think the starting position, per USPSA rules, is a big deal. If we don't have a common, at least relatively, interpretation of a rule, then we can't consistently enforce that rule. If that's the case, then let's just get rid of rules. Edited September 24, 2013 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted September 24, 2013 Share Posted September 24, 2013 To the person who posted video of Tori Nonaka, her position is different than the other shooter's position. It's . . . Odd, but not illegal. That depends on the wording (or lack of wording) for the start position in the WSB. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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