What should I have done?

[Suff]

I had a situation arise at a recent level II match that I didn't really know how to handle. I've only been shooting for a couple of years and haven't done much outside of the club matches.

On one stage there was a swinging shoot target partially covered by a no shoot. Upon scoring I was charged with hit on the edge of the no shoot. I truly believed that the round did not touch the line so I asked for an overlay. The target was shot from an angle making the use of the overlay difficult. Both RO's on the stage stuck with their original call after studying it further (they were both hesitant in their call), so I asked for the target to be pulled and the RM come make the call.

The MD actually came by the stage 1st and was trying raise the RM on the handset. He was having trouble reaching the RM and was getting pissed. He actually looked directly at me once and said "if shooters would just accept what they shot we wouldn't have delay's in our matches".

The troubling part for me was when the RM finally showed up. The MD had the targets in hand, and we started walking towards the RM's golf cart. The MD stopped and told me " you stay here, I will tell you when you can come over to us". I stayed where I was but was still close enough to hear the conversation. He then proceeded to make his case to the RM why the target was a NS hit. She agreed with him and I was summoned to their meeting. I told them at this point there was no need because he had made his case already, so I just went back to the match. Is that the normal way for this situation to happen? Should I have demanded to stay with them for the conversation?

Edited September 11, 2013 by Suff

[Mark R]

Not sure why a target replacement would take up so much time that delays a match...unless you are a D class stapler. Must have been a high anxiety issue on the part of the MD.

Pulling the target is normal procedure for a level 2 or higher match. It's your score, so it's best that they get it right. Call to the RM is the correct call. The other BS...so-so.

[retarmyaviator]

MD sounded like a jerk.

Edited September 11, 2013 by retarmyaviator

[MarkCO]

The MD has no authority at all in your specific case and should not have been involved unless he was assigned to RO that stage.

For something as simple as an overlay, I don't see why a "Private" meeting needs to be held so long as the shooter is just listening. It is the face of the target and touching (or not) the scoring area (as defined by the perfs) that matters. Does not seem like a case where arguments should be made. It touches or it does not.

RO makes the call, to CRO (maybe) then to RM if shooter does not agree. RM call is it.

9.6.6 The Range Master’s ruling will be final. No further appeals are allowed with respect to the scoring decision.

[Nimitz]

These kinds of things tend to bother me, probably a lot more than others, probably because of my military background. If it were me I'd have done 2 things: first, I'd write up what happened and report it "up the chain" through whatever Area you are in and second, if nothing were done I wouldn't shoot that match anymore if the same person were MD.

We have rules in our sport for a reason so we either follow them or get rid of them, period. There is no excuse for that type of behavior from a MD ....

If more folks were held accountable for their behavior, we'd probably have a lot less bad behavior ...

[MarkCO]

Nimitz, I could not agree with you more!

[Sarge]

Nimitz, I could not agree with you more!

Second!

These kinds of incidents are what perpetuate the "us vs them" mentality. MD should have stayed out of it. RM should have been professional enough to handle this better.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Sarge

[High Lord Gomer]

I can't find any written justification for it but when I witnessed the RM coming to score a pulled target at the Nationals a few years ago the (C?)RO started explaining his reasoning and was told (I think by the shooter) that the RM was there to score the target and just the target, not to listen to his reasoning. The RO did shut up at that point implying that the target should be scored on its own appearance without explanations.

I also find nothing that states that the scoring of a target is something from which the general peasantry should be excluded. To the contrary, 9.6.1 provides:

9.6.1 After the Range Officer has declared “Range is Clear”, the competitor or their delegate will be allowed to accompany the official responsible for scoring to verify the scoring.

[BSeevers]

There is a RO discipline policy and I have seen a couple cases where it needs to be implimented.

People with a personality defects like high control or need to be right have no business being a RO. Officials should be almost in the background. It's hard to find help like RO's and MD's but there are lines and this instance maybe sounds like one. Get consultation with your SC or Area Director

Edited September 11, 2013 by BSeevers

[sperman]

I wouldn't waste my time with the SC or AD. I would go straight here:

http://www.uspsa.org/downloads/NROI%20Incident%20Report.pdf

[Suff]

I have been in contact with the SC after posting this. He was very helpful in his explanation. It seems to me that after reading everything and thinking about it that as the shooter I should have asked to be there with the RO (not MD) while the RM made their call.

[BillChunn]

These kinds of things tend to bother me, probably a lot more than others, probably because of my military background. If it were me I'd have done 2 things: first, I'd write up what happened and report it "up the chain" through whatever Area you are in and second, if nothing were done I wouldn't shoot that match anymore if the same person were MD.

We have rules in our sport for a reason so we either follow them or get rid of them, period. There is no excuse for that type of behavior from a MD ....

If more folks were held accountable for their behavior, we'd probably have a lot less bad behavior ...

Nimitz, I could not agree with you more!

Nimitz, I could not agree with you more!

Second!

These kinds of incidents are what perpetuate the "us vs them" mentality. MD should have stayed out of it. RM should have been professional enough to handle this better.

THIRD!!! (or is it FORTH??)

The MD should have stayed out of the entire thing. Once that first shot is fired, the MD has turned over the match to the RM and his staff. He should sit down in an air-conditioned environment and enjoy what has been accomplished (and STFU).

Nobody needs to explain anything. The target will speak for itself. Angle doesn't matter. Shooter position doesn't matter. Target position doesn't matter. What matters is DID THE BULLET TOUCH THE PERF? It's really just that simple.

This tells the tale:

He actually looked directly at me once and said "if shooters would just accept what they shot we wouldn't have delay's in our matches".

GET OVER YOURSELF!!!!

Rules are to be followed. Shooter calls for RM opinion on score, take the target down, staple up another one, call the next shooter to the line. What's the big delay? If the MD has prepped the stage properly and the target locations are marked on the sticks, then there is very little delay.

If the rules are not followed, take the USPSA sign down. As already posted, report up the chain to the Area director and NROI. John Amidon's e-mail is in Front Sight. If nothing is done, vote with your feet.

BC

Edited September 11, 2013 by BillChunn

[rvb]

The troubling part for me was when the RM finally showed up. The MD had the targets in hand, and we started walking towards the RM's golf cart. The MD stopped and told me " you stay here, I will tell you when you can come over to us". I stayed where I was but was still close enough to hear the conversation. He then proceeded to make his case to the RM why the target was a NS hit. She agreed with him and I was summoned to their meeting. I told them at this point there was no need because he had made his case already, so I just went back to the match. Is that the normal way for this situation to happen? Should I have demanded to stay with them for the conversation?

These kinds of incidents are what perpetuate the "us vs them" mentality. MD should have stayed out of it. RM should have been professional enough to handle this better.

I'm curious, based on the description given, what did the RM do wrong? He was summoned, arrived, and scored the target, right? For scoring a target, should a shooter expect an opportunity to "present his case before the judge?" It sounds as if the MD was a bit harsh, and had no real reason for keeping the shooter away from the "meeting," but conversely should the RM have waited to score unless the shooter was present or had "pleaded his case?" All the RM needs to do his job is the target, right???

Honestly trying to learn what the RM should have done different to best do his job; I'm not being contentious....

Thanks!

-rvb

Edited September 11, 2013 by rvb

[bigdawgbeav]

Something similar happened in the Fla. State IDPA this year. It was my squad and one of our shooters wanted to argue the no shoot hit. I gotta tell you it was close. The SO for the stage and the shooter got into a shouting match until finally the target was pulled and the MD called over. The shooter ended up losing, but the SO perpetuated everything by coping an attitude.

I understand that match staff are not paid, but at the same time they volunteered. No one forced them to be there. So they have to be ready for scoring challenges and to be a little more professional about it.

[BillChunn]

Honestly trying to learn what the RM should have done different to best do his job; I'm not being contentious....

Thanks!

-rvb

Politely tell the MD to butt out and let the RM do his job.

Just my 2 cents....

BC

[lawboy]

Per my understanding of the rules, if the CRO on the stage made a scoring call and the shooter disputed it and asked that the target be pulled for the RM to score, then there is no role for the MD to play in this situation. He was simply out of line to even interject anything at all and it can fairly be understood as an attempt to influence a match official in the proper disposition of their duties, namely the RM in scoring the target. This is why the MD is not allowed to play any role in administering the match after it has begun.

As for slowing matches down, first, as has been pointed out, there is no need for pulling a target to create a delay. Second, if it does create a delay, so what? The rules require time to adhere to. That is not a delay in the match, that IS the match. If you don't like the time required to run a match by the rules, don't participate.

When I RO, I could care less how long it takes to do anything that is required under the rules to be done. Anyone who decides it is taking too long for them can leave. I am not going to take shortcuts, pressure competitors to accept a call they can dispute under the rules, or anything else. I have a limited role to play. I play my role. Sounds like the MD needs to learn some basic lessons about his role. SC should be able to teach him ...

[sperman]

I'm curious, based on the description given, what did the RM do wrong? He was summoned, arrived, and scored the target, right? For scoring a target, should a shooter expect an opportunity to "present his case before the judge?" It sounds as if the MD was a bit harsh, and had no real reason for keeping the shooter away from the "meeting," but conversely should the RM have waited to score unless the shooter was present or had "pleaded his case?" All the RM needs to do his job is the target, right???

Honestly trying to learn what the RM should have done different to best do his job; I'm not being contentious....

Thanks!

-rvb

The best RM's I have worked with will put an overlay on the target, with the shooter standing right there, and explain the call they are making. I don't know if this happened in this case or not. It sounds like the RM might have been attempting to do that but the shooter refused.

I've seen some RM's that can make the shooter feel good about the fact that they just DQ'd from the match. I know I personally don't have that tact, and that is why I will never act as an RM. I could tell someone they just won the lottery and somehow my presentation will piss them off.

[warpspeed]

To the OP -

Thanks for posting this. It helps all those who might find themselves in your shoes some day.

Knowing who can do what and why make the situation less cloudy.

Edited September 11, 2013 by warpspeed

[Suff]

To the OP -

Thanks for posting this. It helps all those who might find themselves in your shoes some day.

Knowing who can do what and why make the situation less cloudy.

Learning what I should do or should have done was the intent of the post. While I wasn't happy with him I didn't ask this just to stir the pot over the MD.

[rvb]

The best RM's I have worked with will put an overlay on the target, with the shooter standing right there, and explain the call they are making. I don't know if this happened in this case or not. It sounds like the RM might have been attempting to do that but the shooter refused.

I've seen some RM's that can make the shooter feel good about the fact that they just DQ'd from the match. I know I personally don't have that tact, and that is why I will never act as an RM. I could tell someone they just won the lottery and somehow my presentation will piss them off.

That was my take as well.

Sounds like the MD made a simple situation difficult. The RM maybe could have defused it by asking to talk to the CRO and shooter, not the MD, but just walking into the situation may not have even been aware of any tension.... hard to tell w/o being there i guess.

thx,

-rvb

[FranDoc]

Learning what I should do or should have done was the intent of the post. ...

Rule citations, just for future reference, so you know what you can do as the shooter, and as the RO if you ever work a match as staff:

9.1.1 -While scoring is in progress (ed: this includes after the target is pulled so the match can progress) the competitor or delegate must not approach closer than three feet without authorization of the Range Officer.

In practice, give the RO/CRO/RM a little space to look and make a determination. The target is scored 'as seen'. Ideally, the story behind that particular bullet hole really doesn't matter.

Once I make a call, especially if it's 'close' or someone has asked me to use the overlay, I'll demonstrate to the shooter what I see & why I've made that call. That's just being decent. Anybody who's worked a match with MacTiger, or read his column in the most recent Front Sight, has heard his 'Don't be a D***' admonition to the RO staff.

Note that 9.1.1 does not require the shooter to be any more distant from the target, nor 'out of earshot' when a contested target is being reviewed.

See Section 9.6, et seq, for Scoring Verification & Challenge -- RO, then CRO, then RM (ed: note no mention of MD).

If you don't have a rule book handy, the whole thing can be downloaded off the USPSA site -- 'Rules' tab.

Rules 9.1.1 and 9.6 do not have any suggested changes in the 2013 updates.

[Gary Stevens]

I'm curious, based on the description given, what did the RM do wrong? He was summoned, arrived, and scored the target, right? For scoring a target, should a shooter expect an opportunity to "present his case before the judge?" It sounds as if the MD was a bit harsh, and had no real reason for keeping the shooter away from the "meeting," but conversely should the RM have waited to score unless the shooter was present or had "pleaded his case?" All the RM needs to do his job is the target, right???

Honestly trying to learn what the RM should have done different to best do his job; I'm not being contentious....

Thanks!

-rvb

The best RM's I have worked with will put an overlay on the target, with the shooter standing right there, and explain the call they are making. I don't know if this happened in this case or not. It sounds like the RM might have been attempting to do that but the shooter refused.

I've seen some RM's that can make the shooter feel good about the fact that they just DQ'd from the match. I know I personally don't have that tact, and that is why I will never act as an RM. I could tell someone they just won the lottery and somehow my presentation will piss them off.

I know I always want the shooter to be part of the process. I want them to explain to me what they see (or think they see) and then I will make a decision based on what I see (not think I see). This allows us to discuss (not argue) the call and maybe everyone leaves satisfied (although maybe not happy).

Gary

[whitedog]

At the 13 Ohio state I made a scoring call. The shooter went to the cro. The cro went to the target, with me right behind to learn. He overplayed the target and upheld my call. All the time being cool to the shooter. The shooter was ok about it. Here's the part that matters...really matters. As the cof was still being taped the cro said to me " overlay the shot and show me what you saw". He wanted to make sure I was ok. I may have made the right call, but he used positive reenforcement to boost my confidence as I was called out on my call. No delay in the cof happened. To me that's awesome.

His name is Madison. (Madmad world.) Stand up cro I'd work with again anywhere, anytime.