Limited Vs Open

[Selby213]

I am new to the sport, and have been shooting single stack all year. I have been thinking about moving to the Open class, but the cost of a custom Open firearm is nearly twice that of a custom limited. Seeing that I have not shot in either class previously I thought I would put out the question for everyone else.

Why are you shooting either Limited or Open, or do you shoot both? Any advantages of shooting one Vs the other?

[kneelingatlas]

I have been thinking about moving to the Open

Shoot Open.

You will not stop thinking about it until you do. Yes, an Open gun is expensive, but a Limited gun now and an Open gun in six months is more expensive.

Caveat: do you reload? if you don't reload, don't shoot Open.

If you do decide to shoot Open, watch the forums and buy a used Open gun, then when you decide what you like and what you don't you can have a custom one built; if you decide it's not for you, sell it for what you paid for it.

[No.343]

I've never shot Open. However, I just got back from A4 match. I saw open guns have more trouble than any other type of gun. I wouldn't buy one unless I had a good relationship with a gunsmith.

I bet kneelingatlas is right. If you want one you might as well get one.

[jdphotoguy]

I shoot both Limited and Open, using a XDM 5.25 40 cal in Limited and a tricked out M&P 9L in Open. So when all was said and done in my case the guns for either division are close in price, the big difference is the optic cost on the Open gun.

I prefer to shoot Open, mostly because vision issues make finding and lining up iron sights slower then I can find the dot.

Both divisions are fun, heck all the divisions are fun, it's really comes down to what do you enjoy shooting. I'd recommend you ask all the Limited and Open shooters if you can shoot a few rounds through their guns. See what feels good in your hand and what you shoot well.

Best of luck.

[jdphotoguy]

I've never shot Open. However, I just got back from A4 match. I saw open guns have more trouble than any other type of gun. I wouldn't buy one unless I had a good relationship with a gunsmith.

I bet kneelingatlas is right. If you want one you might as well get one.

My opinion on why Open shooters have more issues with their guns is, by nature Open shooters are more apt to be tinkerers. Anytime you start tinkering with something, whether it be working up loads or messing with the internals, there is the potential for problems, plus Open guns are like high performance race cars, built to push the envelope and sometimes they push to far.

[kneelingatlas]

by nature Open shooters are more apt to be tinkerers. Anytime you start tinkering with something, whether it be working up loads or messing with the internals, there is the potential for problems, plus Open guns are like high performance race cars, built to push the envelope and sometimes they push to far.

Yes! Open is about pushing the envelope How flat can flat be? how fast is fast enough? The experimentation is part of the game (and the money hole )

[kneelingatlas]

When I first got into this sport I bought a Limited gun because I though I wasn't COOL enough for an Open gun, then proceeded immediately to turn it into an Open gun. Now that I have four Open guns, I've also discovered a fondness for Production; but I'm not really all that interested in shooting Limited, and if I do, it will likely be Limited Minor with the comp and Optic taken off one of my Open guns. I've gotten all into load development for 9mm and I never really feel like switching over to .40.

[Selby213]

I have been thinking about moving to the Open

Shoot Open.

Caveat: do you reload? if you don't reload, don't shoot Open.

If you do decide to shoot Open, watch the forums and buy a used Open gun, then when you decide what you like and what you don't you can have a custom one built; if you decide it's not for you, sell it for what you paid for it.

Yeah, I have reloaded rifle for a couple of years and just started reloading 40.

I dont know what it is, but I have a fear of buying a used gun. I think that my concern is that I dont want to buy one from someone that knows less that me (I know VERY little) about gunsmithing or adjustments in trigger sets. Next thing I know I can only fist bump instead of high 5.

[B45C22]

Shooting open will change your mindset about speeds, planning, and a "good enough" sight picture. You will shoot all other divisions differently after shooting open for a little while.

I like them all and shoot them all but I try and stick with one gun for a year at a time if I can. It is difficult to do with all the nice guns int safe though.

[GForceLizard]

No fear of working up the perfect flat shooting load for your open gun. You want to be 1st period, not just in your division. Open's for you.

I shoot limited because I think the guns are cool, open guns are cool too.

[HI5-O]

I shoot Open primarily and like it because I can see the target and the dot. I've bought new and used guns in the past and have had good experiences from sellers on this forum. My main reason for buying a used gun was because I was looking for a back-up gun to take to major matches. Came close but not close enough so I bought a new Cameron's in 2012 and another one just like it in 2013.

Yes, they are expensive to buy new but you can be assured the gun will run. Like anything high-performance, the maintenance is key to keep it running (feed it quality ammo; clean it; replace springs regularly).

For me, I compare shooting an Open gun to driving my wife's Acura TL and shooting in Production is like driving the Scion XD. Both get you there but the ride there in the Acura is way more fun.

Have dabbled in Production (M&P 9Pro) but have a hard time seeing the sights (old eyes)

[Selby213]

I shoot Open primarily and like it because I can see the target and the dot. I've bought new and used guns in the past and have had good experiences from sellers on this forum. My main reason for buying a used gun was because I was looking for a back-up gun to take to major matches. Came close but not close enough so I bought a new Cameron's in 2012 and another one just like it in 2013.

I am guessing that you like the Cameron's Custom? (I was going to ask how you like it, but if you have 2 kind of answers that question). I have been looking at Brazos, and a Camerons. I like the design of the Brazos and a lot of the guys I shoot with have those in both limited and open.

Is it worth it for someone like me( new to USPSA, but long time shooter) to start with a custom, or get like an STI GM, and then when I am more experienced move to a custom and move the GM to back up?

[Hi-Power Jack]

I shoot Open primarily and like it because I can see the target and the dot.

Is it worth it for me( new to USPSA, but long time shooter) to start with a custom, or get like an STI GM, ?

I would purchase a TruBor in 9mm major, tinkered with by Brazos (as a matter

of fact, that's exactly what I did).

Great value - very little extra value from the GM.

[Neomet]

My thoughts:

We have cookies in Open.

How are your eyes? The worse they are the more you will like Open.

All divisions are fun to shoot.

Open will make distance/tight shots easier but it won't move you up one place in the standings as everyone in Open has the same mechanical advantages the dot brings.

What do most folks at your club shoot? If there are two other shooters in your division it will probably get a little boring.

Whichever division you go with get the best gun you can. What appears to be the cheap route is not, and the whole time you have the "lesser" gun you will be wondering how well you could have done with the other. Oh, and better does not necessarily mean more expensive.

[Selby213]

My thoughts:

How are your eyes? The worse they are the more you will like Open.

What do most folks at your club shoot? If there are two other shooters in your division it will probably get a little boring.

Whichever division you go with get the best gun you can. What appears to be the cheap route is not, and the whole time you have the "lesser" gun you will be wondering how well you could have done with the other. Oh, and better does not necessarily mean more expensive.

Eyes arent bad, but certainly aren't great.

Vast majority shoot limited or production. Open has about as many people in it consistently as Single Stack.

Def will only spend the money once instead of chasing after money already spent.

[bikerburgess]

I started out shooting Limited and then spent the next several years playing in all the divisions exept open, lately I have started shooting open (with a decidedly non custom gun) the question is really what parts af the game do you find the most fun, Open really makes you focus on Speed and Movement. You said there are only a couple of open shooters at your club, that may be something you care about or it may not so think about that before you decide. Lastly you dont need a custom blaster to be competative, any gun that runs will get you amazingly close to your personal potential.

Mike

[ltdmstr]

Can't say I agree with the comments on open guns being better or "tricker" than limited guns, or that they cost so much more. Other than the comp and the dot, they're pretty much the same thing. And same goes for reliability. A properly built gun will be accurate and reliable whether it has a dot and comp or not. Just to state the obvious, if you can't see iron sights, or at least not very well, then open is probably your ticket. The other big factor is how the guns shoot. An open gun is very different from a limited gun in terms of recoil and handling. I would try both and see what you like better.

[Nimitz]

Man up and shoot Production ...

Can't believe how many blind shooters we have on this forum who can't see a big black post and notch 23" from their face but have no trouble finding this little tiny red dot ...

[kneelingatlas]

Unfortunately there seems to be this idea (at least in the mind of the 'beginner') that you have to 'work up' to Open, when in reality, I think I would've really benefited from staring in Open. Production is the natural place to start for so many, but when you think about it, it's one of the hardest divisions; reloads every ten rounds, no magwell, no 1 1/2# crisp SA trigger. It's hard to learn how to break down a stage, plan reloads, move and shoot all at the same time, if you can eliminate/minimize reloads, put a gigantic funnel on the magwell, and replace those pesky sights with a dot, it frees you to focus on the other aspects of the game.

It's funny: after shooting Open for a while, I pulled out a box stock CZ75B at a classifier match and shot 15% higher than my other classifications. I think shooting Open helped me look at the big picture.

[DrawandDuck]

I just got back from A4 match. I saw open guns have more trouble than any other type of gun.

I'll go out on a limb and bet most of them were 9mm....

Edited September 9, 2013 by DrawandDuck

[Chris iliff]

I just got back from A4 match. I saw open guns have more trouble than any other type of gun.

I'll go out on a limb and bet most of them were 9mm....

I'll go out on a limb and bet that those guns had bad reloads or magazines or incompetent smiths. There is nothing wrong with 9mm open guns, PERIOD. I've been shooting one for years and know a bunch of other 9mm OPEN shooters, a bunch. Any good competent smith can tune a 9mm open gun and they don't need sideways mounts to do it. Sorry for the rant, just tired of hearing how its a burden when going 9 has been the opposite for me and a whole bunch of other shooters.

To the OP's question, both platforms are awesome! I think the best way to look at it is "taste", what trips your trigger? Look for good used guns here in the classifieds. I started in OPEN 10 years ago, it's been a blast. I think each division offers something different, explore the options and decide what sparks your interest the most and move in that direction.

Have fun.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Chris iliff

[Doug S]

I shoot Open because of 3-gun. I get to have all the bells and whistles on on 3 of my guns! Rifle gets 2 optics and a bi-pod, shotgun gets to be fed with a box magazine and has a dot sight, and the pistol is just plain fun!

I used to shoot a Steelmaster 9mm and it was a great gun for around $3k, but I wasn't getting any better (my fault not the guns) so I decided to try something different.

I bought an M&P 9 Pro (for about $500), then I started changing it into an Open gun. First thing it got was a complete APEX trigger and spring kit ($200 and about 30 mins to install). Next came a Storm Lake barrel, Carver Comp and recoil spring, ($350 and 30 mins to install and locktite). Then came the optic, a Leupold Delta Point, ($300 and again 30 mins to remove sights and install). Last was the magwell, ($90 bucks and only about 5 mins to install). It came with 3 mags so I bought 1 more and added TF bases to all 4, (about $160) add a holster and mag pouches and I have around $1700 total into it. Sold the Steelmaster and mags for enough to pay for this build, another M&P 9L and an M&P .40!

The only problem I have had with my Open gun was my own fault. I had left over 9mm ammo loaded long for my STI that wouldn't chamber fully in my M&P. When I got home I reseated this ammo and it ran flawlessly. Was my 2011 a better gun, yep, but you couldn't tell it by me.

So for less than $3k, I have 3 guns instead of just the one and I am still having as much fun shooting Open, plus I get to shoot Limited and Production with guns that all have the same feel.

Just food for thought!

[actionshooter38]

I think it all boils down to what you enjoy. I've shot limitted, production, single stack and open. I like them all. I shoot my best in open followed by limitted. I have only shot local matches and shoot for fun, so I shoot what I like. Ask some of your fellow club members to let you try their rigs out, I think you will find many who will be happy to let you. Then you can see which set up you prefer. Always try to get what you want the first time, it will save you money in the long run. IMHO.

[Sarge]

I just got back from A4 match. I saw open guns have more trouble than any other type of gun.

I'll go out on a limb and bet most of them were 9mm....

Pure Bull..... The open guns I see that don't run are usually the result of the owner trying something new the night before a match. 9MAJOR guns can and do run perfectly fine if they are built right and left alone by the shade tree gunsmiths that shoot them. Most jams, feeding issues, etc are the result of mags and or ammo. If there are still guys out there running 9MAJOR open guns that won't eject, hit the scope etc they are waaaay behind the power curve. My 9 built by Matt Cheely is almost as reliable as my trusty G34 was. I think I have a grand total of two, maybe three, stoppages in the last 2 1/2 years.

[HI5-O]

I shoot Open primarily and like it because I can see the target and the dot. I've bought new and used guns in the past and have had good experiences from sellers on this forum. My main reason for buying a used gun was because I was looking for a back-up gun to take to major matches. Came close but not close enough so I bought a new Cameron's in 2012 and another one just like it in 2013.

I am guessing that you like the Cameron's Custom? (I was going to ask how you like it, but if you have 2 kind of answers that question). I have been looking at Brazos, and a Camerons. I like the design of the Brazos and a lot of the guys I shoot with have those in both limited and open.

Is it worth it for someone like me( new to USPSA, but long time shooter) to start with a custom, or get like an STI GM, and then when I am more experienced move to a custom and move the GM to back up?

I love my Cameron's open guns. Both ran perfectly as soon as I got them. The only malfunctions I had were ammo related.

If I were to start shooting Open for the first time I would look at getting a new TruBor that has been given the once over by one of the many great builders that sell the tuned TruBor.

After shooting that and getting to know open division and finding out what you prefer, it'll be easy to sell the TruBor and get a custom open gun to your liking in the caliber of your choice. If you want a back up gun, I would recommend the back up be the same as your primary gun. For me, my "older" Cameron's gun will be used for practice and the "new" one will be for matches.

I tried in the past to always have a back up gun for major matches but found out the guns were just a little too different to be able to readily switch to the back up gun.

The Grand Master looks nice but it is basically the same as a TruBor.

Can't go wrong with either Brazos (Bob L. is very helpful) or Cameron's (Ed C. is very easy to work with and has been most helpful). The wait times for either of these guys vary a lot (12+ months for Brazos and 3+ months for Cameron's).

Edited September 10, 2013 by HI5-O