.38 "mid" Colt

[redmist10]

Anyone else experiencing squib loads, gas blow by, or bullet push back issues with cases that don't have a lower anneal lines? I cut down some REM-UMC brass and cut off the lines at the original case mouth. Most had more lines midway on the case, which became the new case mouth, but I found a number with no line or faint lines and experienced predictable squibs once I sorted the loaded rounds to account for this difference in brass.

Edited April 8, 2014 by redmist10

[Jimwax]

Never have, are your bullets pulling? What kind of crimp are you using?

[Guest]

I cut down some Federal and R-P 38 special cases to 0.90" and loaded 160 grain Lead Round nose GAT bullets over 3.5 grains of Clay Dot with an OAL of 1.330. I ran them over a chronograph yesterday:

In my 5" barreled 627 limited gun 8 shots averaged 843.9 feet per second with a standard deviation of 11.61 fps for an average power factor of 135

In my 6" open gun they averaged 835.9 feet per second with a standard deviation of 27.69 fps for an average power factor of 134.

I didn't shoot any groups but they all landed on the head of a metric target from ~35 yards when shot from a table top. They also shot much cleaner than the similar 38 special loads I've been using.

Any other Midi data out there?

I'm doing initial load development with 38mid and had a chance to chrono a couple Clay Dot loads today out of a 5" 627.

160gr lead RN loaded to 1.335 OAL

Fed and R-P brass cut to 0.890"

Tula SPP

3.2gr Clay Dot averaged 775fps = 124 pf

3.5gr Clay Dot averaged 826fps - 132 pf

The 3.5 grain load feels good, didn't exhibit any pressure signs, is very clean burning, and extracted easy but it's not there yet as I have some significant issues which need to be worked.

-1st - About 1 out f 8 or 10 rounds didn't light off. I loaded with Tula SPP because I have a bunch and wanted to see if they would work...and they didn't. I cranked up the tension on the mainspring quite a bit, and still was getting some no-fires. I may try an extended firing pin, but probably just need to reconcile myself to using Federal SPPs.

-2nd - Didn't use nearly enough crimp. I had couple bullets that backed and separated from the case in the cylinder under recoil. I'm using a Lee 38 special FCD with a 9mm insert with the crimp set to 1/2 turn after contact with with case mouth. Obviously need a lot more crimp and will pull check some to make sure the crimp is strong so that doesn't happen again.

-3rd - Not really impressed with the accuracy yet. I need to resolve the first two issues before I really do accuracy checks, but at about 20 yards was getting approx. 4" groups. Just as a sanity check I shot some .38 special loads with the 160gr bullet/ww231 and was getting <2" groups (from sandbags).

So, the quest continues!

Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

[Guest]

Just an FYI - I was in our local Harbor Freight and thought I'd look at the mini chop saw RevolverJockey and others are using to cut down brass and found it has been discontinued by Harbor Freight. The HF guy said that some stores may have some old stock, but they didn't.

Mini Chop Saw Update - looks like Harbor Freight is selling them again for about 33 bucks before any coupons or discounts (Drill Master - item#61900).

BTW - Been playing with the 38 mid for a few months and am about to hang up the .38 mid concept and move towards 38 short colts. I think the 38 mid concept is sound and they were easy to load, but the juice just isn't worth the squeeze for me when it came to making the brass.

I got a few hundred short colts and have been tinkering with them lately. I like the way 160 LRN feels with Clay Dot and it is super clean burning, but it seems that powders like American Select, 700x (sooty, but shoots well), or solo1000 are not dancing on the edge of the pressure envelope like Clay Dot.

[Racinready300ex]

All the talk of people trying to find good loads for short colts, and cutting down brass for mid's seemed like a lot of work. I went with long colts and I'm happy.

[Ty Hamby]

My wife and I have been shooting 38 mediums for well over a year now in USPSA First L10 minor and now in revolver division as well as Limited in ICORE.

Our current 38medium (.900) pet load is 160gn Bayou's with 3.3gn of N310. 1.30"OAL 130PF

Short colts are faster but at USPSA minor power levels have caused sticky moons My sanity requires a smaller chance for failure, the short colts are at their limit in porous Ti cylinders. Too risky for me.

FYI I would not do it again. I would run Long Colts and be done. It took me and my son 10 hours to covert 2000 long colts into mediums using a drill on a Lyman trimmer.

[GOF]

I use Long Colt brass in ICORE Classic Division. The ejector stroke of my GP-100 completely clears them from the chamber. They load fast. 3.3 grains of Clays and a 158 plated bullet makes PF and has little recoil. A full cylinder six shot group shoots into 2.25 inches at 25 yards. l can buy Long Colt brass from Starline, and the 'Long Colt' headstamp makes it easy to get my brass back. Given all that, I can't see myself spending the time to shorten .38 Spl cases.

[NMhvactech]

I am new to competitive revolver shooting and I’ve been wanting to give it a try. I’ve had a S&W 627 PC sitting in the safe for several years, just waiting. So you know I have been shooting uspsa production and limited on and off for the last 7 years.The thing is I have been reading and studying as many posts as I can find on 38 shorts or mids, and the last 2 posts state what I’ve been thinking all along. Why not just use long colts.  I’m planning to run straight long colt brass at 1.20 and 158-160 gr Barry’s and Bayou Bullets, because that’s what I have. Does any one have a few recipes for long colts? I’m wanting to reach 825-840 FPS. What should the AOL be? 

Any suggestions on revolver gear, holster, moon clips, tools, moon clip holders?

Thank you

[alecmc]

Long Colt brass, 160 grain bullet, 1.37" oal

 

www.4wheelguns.com for moonclip holder rigs

 

www.tkcustom.com for moonclips

Edited February 22, 2018 by alecmc

[firewood]

I'm presently trying to get a mid colt load to work for me. I trimmed to .845 (an arbitrary length). my charge is 3.4g titegroup and 147g xtreme plated RN (no crimp groove). I used a 9mm size and taper crimp die. I want this load for the PSA shootout/occasional use or maybe ICORE using a 4" 686. The accuracy is off the charts awful.

 

Could it be that I'm breaking all the rules for using a 9mm size die and taper crimp and that would be a primary cause of terrible performance? I have to use Federal brass because I already have TK moons and they will not work with starline.  Thanks in advance for any guidance.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by firewood

[Steve RA]

Try it with .358 bullets, might improve accuracy.

[RevolverJockey]

I never had luck with TG but also was using a .358” lead 158 RN and a .357 roll crimp die cut down to 9mm length. 

[revoman]

The 9mm size die and taper crimp might be your problem. Use regular 38 dies or short colt dies try a roll crimp and .358 or .357 bullets.

[jhgtyre]

If you are shooting a 147gr 9mm bullet in a 686 that is the problem.  

[firewood]

11 minutes ago, jhgtyre said:

If you are shooting a 147gr 9mm bullet in a 686 that is the problem.  

 

I'm not trying to be stubborn. I'm going to try some 38 coated and see what that does. The plated 147 that I have are sold as .357 and measure that using a 1" micrometer and they work reasonably well in 38 special loads but truthfully I haven't experimented very much with this gun.  I'm open to any suggestions and appreciate the several responses. Thanks guys.

[firewood]

3 hours ago, RevolverJockey said:

I never had luck with TG but also was using a .358” lead 158 RN and a .357 roll crimp die cut down to 9mm length. 

 

May I ask what powder/charge you recommend? I have some 135g coated for sure and possibly some 160g coated .358 bullets out there somewhere.

[RevolverJockey]

For 9mm out of a Glock and a 5” SBR, a 627-4 Super and a 627 8 times I used a hand cast 158gr Lee TL bullet and between 3.2 and 3.6 grains of WST. 9mm at 1.150”, Super and mid Colt 1.250”.

[Dr. Phil]

FWIW I tried some coated .3565 dia. 9mm bullets in my 686 and my 327TRR8 and they shot great! I use the .38 resize die, 9mm flare die and 9mm bullet seat/taper crimp die. Accuracy is better with the .3565 than with the .358 blue bullets.

As an experiment today I tested those .358 Blue bullets in my 929. Best accuracy I have ever had with that gun! Shot on one spot on a 20 yd plate! Go figure.

Goofy guns!

Keep experimenting and you will find the answer...

[swordfish]

On 2/28/2018 at 7:43 PM, jhgtyre said:

If you are shooting a 147gr 9mm bullet in a 686 that is the problem.  

I've never ever had a problem, and neither has my buddy. They're not quite as accurate as the .358 bullets, but for every indoor match we've shot so far they've been more than accurate enough.

[swordfish]

On 2/28/2018 at 9:22 PM, Dr. Phil said:

FWIW I tried some coated .3565 dia. 9mm bullets in my 686 and my 327TRR8 and they shot great! I use the .38 resize die, 9mm flare die and 9mm bullet seat/taper crimp die. Accuracy is better with the .3565 than with the .358 blue bullets.

As an experiment today I tested those .358 Blue bullets in my 929. Best accuracy I have ever had with that gun! Shot on one spot on a 20 yd plate! Go figure.

Goofy guns!

Keep experimenting and you will find the answer...

Don't tell me that! I just ordered 10k .355 from them. Not much .358 left. Actually haven't done any load development on this gun at all yet, just took a good load we had worked up for our autos for 3gun and made it make power factor (+0.1gr powder, +.015OAL in my 929). I've heard things about the 929s liking bigger bullets and I had planned on slugging the bore and chambers and checking everything and doing load development, but I've been lazy and I haven't NEEDED to yet, so I've avoided it. I still might not ever do it, the load works pretty well. I just need different sights.

[firewood]

OK haven't given up on this yet. I'm going to try some 130g .358 LSWC coated that I dug up, ladder loads of WST and HP-38 (just for S&Gs) using 38 dies and light roll crimp into a crimp grove. I double checked the previous effort mentioned above and they do in-fact suck. Having given the matter quite a bit of thought I think the main problem is the 9mm sizing die puts excessive case mouth tension on the brass. That and the fast powder creating a lot of pressure although I see no signs of overpressure but this sounds like a good excuse. Thanks for the suggestions will report back in a week or so.

[firewood]

OK,, using a 38 resizing die, 130g coated .358 FN with grove, seated using a 9mm seating die and crimping with a 38 LC combo die with the seating stem backed way out to only roll crimp and using Clays I am relieved to find that the ammo is working much better. I do notice however that I get good results at 3.2 grains, it falls off at 3.4 and 3.6 then returns to good at 3.8 grains but that seems like a stiff charge to me. So, 3.2 may not have the pf I want but accuracy I need. Perhaps I should use a different powder?  I should shoot this over a chrony instead of speculating I suppose. Just thinking out loud.

[alecmc]

What's your oal ? Just from my experience with my own load, 3.2 is too light of a charge for a 130, I wouldn't be surprised if 3.6-3.8 is what was required (watch for pressures)

 

Personally I tried a heavier bullet like a 160 grain rn. 

 

3.2 doesn't sound like enough powder for a 130

[firewood]

 

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 4:51 PM, alecmc said:

What's your oal ? Just from my experience with my own load, 3.2 is too light of a charge for a 130, I wouldn't be surprised if 3.6-3.8 is what was required (watch for pressures)

 

Personally I tried a heavier bullet like a 160 grain rn. 

 

3.2 doesn't sound like enough powder for a 130

 

Sorry haven't been on this forum for a few days. I'm going to measure the oal when I get home but not sure it will be useful information because I've picked a case length out of thin air.

 

When shooting the clays 3.6 g loads in particular the primers are beginning to flatten out and the feeling I get in my gut is one of concern. I agree that in my head 3.2 grains clays doesn't seem enough. Trying to extrapolate a 135g 9mm load with TG 3.4g that meets pf thinking that "hopefully" the faster clays will make up the difference. Maybe a slower powder will work better? I have HP-38 in abundance.

 

Alec, may I ask what day are you shooting the PSA shootout? Since time is getting short I'm thinking about using a 8 shot for stock revo but if I can get this thing to work in another week I'm going to take the chance.

[alecmc]

4 hours ago, firewood said:

 

 

Sorry haven't been on this forum for a few days. I'm going to measure the oal when I get home but not sure it will be useful information because I've picked a case length out of thin air.

 

When shooting the clays 3.6 g loads in particular the primers are beginning to flatten out and the feeling I get in my gut is one of concern. I agree that in my head 3.2 grains clays doesn't seem enough. Trying to extrapolate a 135g 9mm load with TG 3.4g that meets pf thinking that "hopefully" the faster clays will make up the difference. Maybe a slower powder will work better? I have HP-38 in abundance.

 

Alec, may I ask what day are you shooting the PSA shootout? Since time is getting short I'm thinking about using a 8 shot for stock revo but if I can get this thing to work in another week I'm going to take the chance.

 

I'll be at the PSA on Thursday.

 

I also just use an 8 shot for the iron sight 6 shot division at the PSA. Just make sure you're good at counting and reloading after 6

 

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by alecmc