New Rules Posted for Member Comment

[EkuJustice]

I think avoiding an unconventional shooting position (ie, a hard lean) by stepping out and being able to be more upright could also be a significant advantage.

I can agree with that to a point. The gray area comes into defining what a "hard Lean" is. A "hard lean" to an over weight 50 year old shooter is probably not the same as a "hard lean" of an in shape 25 year old. I think in the end, its all about what an equitable penalty is for the faulting scenario. A single 10 point procedural penalty has a pretty big impact to a shooters hit factor. I usually look at it from a HF vs Time perspective. If the stage is a 10HF stage the shooter would need to gain a Time advantage of at least 1 second to make faulting and eating a procedural a wash. There are very few "Hard Lean" scenarios that I could see ANY skill level shooter gaining more than a second time advantage by avoiding the hard lean and shooting from a faulted position. In this type of scenario a single procedural penalty is more than enough to make it not worth doing. Why try to club the shooter over the head assessing excessive per shot fired procedurals when you already have a sufficient penalty by assessing a single procedural?

A good example of those would be the ones where you are more or less persuaded to shoot one handed due to a very extreme lean. Make it 3 -4 targets like that what you would have to shoot say week hand due to stage layout and make it one procedural to step out and fault and shoot basically freestyle and its probably well worth it

[EkuJustice]

3.3.1: In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity,

that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the

contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match

Director/Range Master before the start of the match.

New Rule to help with magazine capacity restrictions.

I think what this primarily deals with is places such as NY where there is no grandfathering and the max capacity in competition use is 10 rounds. It sounds like what they are trying to prevent is Mr Police officer from walking out to a match shooting open where everyone else is shooting Open 10 and slapping in his LEO exempt 30 round big stick and having a major advantage over everyone else in the match

[Sarge]

Mr Police officer having a major advantage over everyone else in the match

Not likely.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Thanks for the link. First thought (after looking at a different organization's presentation of rules for comment) is WOW, uspsa really has their act together. I love having the changes spelled out and I love having the notes that explain the reasoning or goals. Unless I misread 3.3.1, it looks like L10 is going to be a lot more popular in the future.

from rulebook3.3.1: In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match.

So does this apply in states with grandfather or pre-ban clauses?

This is a big deal!

Why in the hell would USPSA do this?

Isn't this why lim 10 came around? To allow for those who can't run standard mags?

So this means that if a state passes some retarded legislation but it has a grandfather clause, no matter....

You are forced to run "open 10"

WTF?!?!

Not to mention if there is a return of a Clinton type ban even with the provisions for pre ban equipment this means THOUSANDS of us

Are screwed?!?!

I understand the need to make this game fair and continue to attract new participants but there has to be a bit more pragmatic approach than stripping our entire membership down to the lowest common denominator!

I avoid politics here but stumbled across this and immediately set up a login on the USPSA forums to voice my concern!!

[DWFAN]

Thanks for the link. First thought (after looking at a different organization's presentation of rules for comment) is WOW, uspsa really has their act together. I love having the changes spelled out and I love having the notes that explain the reasoning or goals. Unless I misread 3.3.1, it looks like L10 is going to be a lot more popular in the future.

from rulebook3.3.1: In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match.

So does this apply in states with grandfather or pre-ban clauses?

This is a big deal!

Why in the hell would USPSA do this?

Isn't this why lim 10 came around? To allow for those who can't run standard mags?

So this means that if a state passes some retarded legislation but it has a grandfather clause, no matter....

You are forced to run "open 10"

WTF?!?!

Not to mention if there is a return of a Clinton type ban even with the provisions for pre ban equipment this means THOUSANDS of us

Are screwed?!?!

I understand the need to make this game fair and continue to attract new participants but there has to be a bit more pragmatic approach than stripping our entire membership down to the lowest common denominator!

I avoid politics here but stumbled across this and immediately set up a login on the USPSA forums to voice my concern!!

That's what I thought. Everyone else seems to be more concerned with 6ma/8mi.

Edited July 31, 2013 by DWFAN

[Poppa Bear]

I think the magazine limiting policy needs some explanation. My interpretation is that in places like NY that do not appear to have a grandfather clause the MD announces the max capacity of magazines to be used in the match just to keep everyone legal. If they have a grandfather clause then run what you brung. So maybe give us a little more info on what the rule means??

[mactiger]

I'm not speaking for the entire board here, but basically the mag capacity rule is there to level the playing field in states, such as NY, where they've passed a maximum magazine capacity law, and to keep everyone there legal. What it's essentially saying is: go by the letter of the law.

[kevin c]

I'm not speaking for the entire board here, but basically the mag capacity rule is there to level the playing field in states, such as NY, where they've passed a maximum magazine capacity law, and to keep everyone there legal. What it's essentially saying is: go by the letter of the law.

Thank you, Troy. That's clear in situations where any magazine greater than the capacity allowed by local legislation is prohibited without exception. But the question still remains - are grandfathered magazines with highter capacity allowable in a USPSA match where new competitors only have access to the lower capacity, or is the club/match admin required to use the lower capacity limit for all Divisions, regardless?

[EkuJustice]

it sounds to me like the only place it would apply is places where there are a max capacity period ie no grandfathered mags. I think it is worded very well as it doesn't simply state all laws must be followed as that leaves the area open for those who have special exemptions that don't apply to everyone else. Like was mentioned earlier, the prime example would be people with law enforcement exemptions would definately have an advantage in places where there were no grandfathered mags and it simply stated follow the law as they would be following the law by using full capacity mags. The only division it would really affect is Open as the limited shooters would simply shoot limited 10 as there would be no reason to shoot limited if the max was 10 rounds anyway. In open, full capacity mags would be a pretty big advantage when shooting open vs open 10.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

I'm not speaking for the entire board here, but basically the mag capacity rule is there to level the playing field in states, such as NY, where they've passed a maximum magazine capacity law, and to keep everyone there legal. What it's essentially saying is: go by the letter of the law.

Thank you, Troy. That's clear in situations where any magazine greater than the capacity allowed by local legislation is prohibited without exception. But the question still remains - are grandfathered magazines with highter capacity allowable in a USPSA match where new competitors only have access to the lower capacity, or is the club/match admin required to use the lower capacity limit for all Divisions, regardless?

This!!!

This question is not answered in fact I would argue that the proposed wording means no grandfather clause no pre existing equipment. Nothing.

If your state, or federal says 8 round mags from here out then sorry Charlie, you may lawfully possess standard capacity mags and shoot em all day long per applicable laws for pre ban equipment but once you shoot under USPSA sanctioning you be become day one neophyte as far as equipment goes.

Make allowances for level playing field amongst newcomeres.

But don't ban equipment which I legally can use outside of USPSA!

[mactiger]

I'm not speaking for the entire board here, but basically the mag capacity rule is there to level the playing field in states, such as NY, where they've passed a maximum magazine capacity law, and to keep everyone there legal. What it's essentially saying is: go by the letter of the law.

Thank you, Troy. That's clear in situations where any magazine greater than the capacity allowed by local legislation is prohibited without exception. But the question still remains - are grandfathered magazines with highter capacity allowable in a USPSA match where new competitors only have access to the lower capacity, or is the club/match admin required to use the lower capacity limit for all Divisions, regardless?

This!!!

This question is not answered in fact I would argue that the proposed wording means no grandfather clause no pre existing equipment. Nothing.

If your state, or federal says 8 round mags from here out then sorry Charlie, you may lawfully possess standard capacity mags and shoot em all day long per applicable laws for pre ban equipment but once you shoot under USPSA sanctioning you be become day one neophyte as far as equipment goes.

Make allowances for level playing field amongst newcomeres.

But don't ban equipment which I legally can use outside of USPSA!

Again, I'm speaking for myself and not the entire board, but I think I understand the rule. So, let's keep our collars on and think about what the rule actually says.

First off, this proposed rule does not ban anything. USPSA is not in the business of banning legal equipment. We are, however, concerned about the legal implications involved in not specifying that a match director, in a state or other location that does not allow standard capacity magazines, can limit the magazine capacity at his/her match to comply with the law. (And not get into legal trouble)

Secondly, if standard capacity magazines are grandfathered, i.e., legal to use if you already have them, then this rule doesn't prevent that.

Third, the comment, "Make allowances for level playing field amongst newcomeres." (sic), seems to imply that we should create some special division for new shooters who don't have standard capacity magazines, and let everyone else play with their existing magazines. Not exactly equitable. Although, I suspect that "grandfathered" magazines would not be hard to get.

In NY, I don't understand all the nuances of their law. I've heard that 10 round mags are allowed in competition, and I've heard all kind of other things. However, if you can't legally own more than a 10 round magazine, then this rule says that's what everyone shoots, because that's the letter of the law.

USPSA isn't banning anything. We are merely saying, "comply with the law in your area".

Troy

[kevin c]

Thank you, Troy.

So, in California, where currently the law allows grandfathered magazines, Open and Limited may be shot with such. A Production shooter who has a standard capacity mag can use it loaded to Division capacity. A new shooter who has no grandfathered magazines currently can shoot Open or Limited with the currently allowed 10 rounders, or participate in a Division where current USPSA rules limit capacity to 10 rounds. In Hawaii, where no mags greater than 10 rounds are allowed, period, Open and Limited are essentially shot as 10 round Divisions. In either state, scores are submitted in the Divisions declared by the competitor. In California that means that the 10 round Open or Limited shooter is going up against higher capacity magazine useers. In Hawaii everyone is in the same boat. Also in Hawaii, L10 and Limited are the same.

Under the proposed rules, if local law absolutely prohibits capacity "X", then USPSA will require the MD to officially limit magazine capacity to no more than what the law allows, applied to all divisions at the match. I assume that, since local law would prohibit possession, then competitors would not be allowed to download a magazine of higher than legal capacity. Use of higher capacity magazines at the match would consititute the use of equipment noncompliant for any Division and would result in no score (we here set aside the legal ramifications for the individual using them). For capacities of ten or less, L10 and Limited become the same. For mag capacities where the gun will not run dry on any given array, classifiers could still be considered equitable with HHF's done with standard capacity magazines and could be submitted, but might not be appropriate where a reload would be required because of reduced capacity. Declared Division would be the same, although Limited and L10 would be using the same equipment, and declaring one over the other would mostly matter for awarding slots to the national venues.

Does this sound right so far?

clarity edit

Edited August 2, 2013 by kevin c

[kmca]

That's not the way I read it:

"3.3.1: In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity,

that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the

contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match

Director/Range Master before the start of the match."

I read it as going to the lowest common denominator, i.e. 10 rounds max for a new shooter = 10 rounds for everybody.

[ac4wordplay]

... I assume that, since local law here would prohibit possession, then competitors would not be allowed to download a magazine of higher than legal capacity. Use of higher capacity magazines at the match would consititute the use of equipment noncompliant for any Division and would result in no score (we here set aside the legal ramifications for the individual using them). ...

Very interesting interpretation. Opinions?

[Ultimo-Hombre]

That's not the way I read it:

"3.3.1: In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity,

that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the

contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match

Director/Range Master before the start of the match."

I read it as going to the lowest common denominator, i.e. 10 rounds max for a new shooter = 10 rounds for everybody.

It would seem at the very least this rule warrants more specific wording.

[EkuJustice]

I am all for that option but only if it is applied where possession of the mags is totally prohibited.

Edited August 1, 2013 by EkuJustice

[kmca]

I am all for that option but only if it is applied where possession of the mags is totally prohibited.

It depends on why 3.3.1 is being put in. If it's to ensure compliance with the local law or it's to level the playing field for all competitors.

[StealthyBlagga]

If we have this new rule to "level the playing field" for folks behind enemy lines, can we PLEASE increase the mag capacity for Production Division to 15 for all the free states to align with the rest of the Free World???

[JAFO]

If we have this new rule to "level the playing field" for folks behind enemy lines, can we PLEASE increase the mag capacity for Production Division to 15 for all the free states to align with the rest of the Free World???

Shoot limited. Production shoots against Production. You've got 10, everyone else has 10.

Edited August 2, 2013 by JAFO

[MoNsTeR]

I, too, find 3.3.1 to be incomprehensibly worded (to which effect I posted on the official forums, where it counts).

If it really means what Troy says, there doesn't seem much point in having it. We don't need a rule in the book that says "don't break the law". The only time I can think it would be relevant would be to prohibit LE and military shooters from taking advantage of their special status to gain a capacity advantage. I would prefer we just prohibit that.

[Bunchies95]

Now that the 90 day comment period is up, when is the BoD expected to make the suggested changes and vote on the rulebook?

[Chuck Anderson]

Last night. Should be announced today or tomorrow.

[sperman]

I haven't had time to read it yet, but the BOD minutes are posted (less than 24 hours after the meeting. That has to be a record.)

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20131009.pdf

[bdpaz]

I haven't had time to read it yet, but the BOD minutes are posted (less than 24 hours after the meeting. That has to be a record.

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20131009.pdf

Looks like it passed ???

Revolver Division

Motion: To approve the proposed rule change to amend the Revolver

Division to allow 8-shot revolvers provided they are scored as minor power

factor

Moved: Pres Seconded A7 Passed

Roll Call requested

YES – A1, A2, A3, A4, A7, Pres

NO – A5, A6, A8

Edited October 9, 2013 by bdpaz

[BritinUSA]

Next year's Revolver Nationals will be interesting to watch.. I wonder if any Top Shooters will switch to 8-Minor ?