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[Grim]

The reason many people have had little interest in the division is because of the low participation on all levels.

I made a suggestion I think has a chance of increasing participation in Revolver Division:

8 shooters scored minor with a >120PF

6 & 7 shooters, moonclip fed, scored major with a >160 PF, scored minor with a >120 to 160 PF

6 & 7 shooters, speedloader fed, scored major with a >120 PF

No change is going to be perfect for everyone but maybe we should be asking: "Would it be good for the Division"?

Do you have anything to offer that might help increase participation?

I'm stubborn and only shoot 6-shot, speedloader fed revolvers so I guess that makes me a little dense as well. Case in point, I'm stuck with a 6-shot revolver until Ruger produces an 8 shot revolver. If, IF, Ruger were to come out with an 8-shot I would still only use speedloaders so go figure.

Tom E, I like your idea as it has some merit, but I'm having a difficult time wrapping my head around a sticking point. Can you or anyone else out there help?

Eight-shot revolvers are scored minor. Got it.

Six shot, both moonclip and speedloader, are scored major. Got it.

How is this really any different, in essence, from the current situation, that being that a 6-shot speedloader is competing directly against a 6-shot moonclip? Moonclip revolvers will a majority of the time clean the clock of a speedloader revolver as moonclip reloads are just so much faster and easier due to not only the moonclip but also the size of the .45acp round.

[Tom E]

The reason many people have had little interest in the division is because of the low participation on all levels.

I made a suggestion I think has a chance of increasing participation in Revolver Division:

8 shooters scored minor with a >120PF

6 & 7 shooters, moonclip fed, scored major with a >160 PF, scored minor with a >120 to 160 PF

6 & 7 shooters, speedloader fed, scored major with a >120 PF

No change is going to be perfect for everyone but maybe we should be asking: "Would it be good for the Division"?

Do you have anything to offer that might help increase participation?

I'm stubborn and only shoot 6-shot, speedloader fed revolvers so I guess that makes me a little dense as well. Case in point, I'm stuck with a 6-shot revolver until Ruger produces an 8 shot revolver. If, IF, Ruger were to come out with an 8-shot I would still only use speedloaders so go figure.

Tom E, I like your idea as it has some merit, but I'm having a difficult time wrapping my head around a sticking point. Can you or anyone else out there help?

Eight-shot revolvers are scored minor. Got it.

Six shot, both moonclip and speedloader, are scored major. Got it.

How is this really any different, in essence, from the current situation, that being that a 6-shot speedloader is competing directly against a 6-shot moonclip? Moonclip revolvers will a majority of the time clean the clock of a speedloader revolver as moonclip reloads are just so much faster and easier due to not only the moonclip but also the size of the .45acp round.

My proposal would change your (most likely) minor scored speedloader fed 6 shooter to major scoring. I can't see the change making it the "gun of choice" but it would make it more competitive than under the current division rules. I don't see any reasonable way to do more, but if anyone has suggestions...

Edited August 15, 2013 by Tom E

[dcloudy777]

Moonclip conversions run like $200-300 bucks total, and if done correctly still allow speedloaders to be used for IDPA, ICORE Classic, whatever. I don't think we need to chase the speedloader gun crowd... it's already really easy for them to be competitive in current Revo division. Of course, if 8 Minor passes, 6 Minor is history....

Edited August 16, 2013 by dcloudy777

[Tom E]

Moonclip conversions run like $200-300 bucks total, and if done correctly still allow speedloaders to be used for IDPA, ICORE Classic, whatever. I don't think we need to chase the speedloader gun crowd... it's already really easy for them to be competitive in current Revo division. Of course, if 8 Minor passes, 6 Minor is history....

Ok, so if you were in charge what would you do? Share with us what you think should be done.

[dcloudy777]

I have said it before. Go ahead and allow 8 shot minor. Adopt "X2" scoring for revolver division. Revolver hits score at twice the appropriate points. The number of points is capped, however, to the same maximum as the other divisions. (That is to say, a revolver shooter can only score a max of 15 points on a target requiring three hits for non-revo, and so forth).

What this does is allow for revolver shooters to get a "possible" score on a target with one well placed shot. This potentially eliminates a ton of standing reloads, while freeing up course designers. It also is applicable to the practical application of revolvers, as ammo conservation is a heck of a lot more important with a wheel gun.

IMHO, the biggest thing keeping revolver shooters from USPSA is the tremendous disadvantage they're at versus every other division. My crazy scheme narrows the gap significantly, not only between 8 and 6 shot revolvers, but between revolvers and the autos.

DanO

[JohnRodriguez]

Id allow 8 major if I had my choice.

I shot the High Desert Classic this last weekend in Lim 10 with my 627. Here are the results if you are interested in how 8 minor vs. 6 major faired out. I had one real miss in the match and the other misses were on hard cover for a total of 8 for the match. I'd also change the rules to not allow hard cover on targets past 3 yards.

http://uspsa2.org/ma...130811&club=RGP

[lora]

I've added about as much as I can over the several post on this issue. I think it's time for a trial period for this venture. Lets say a trial of a minimum of 2 years. Funny how that coincides with the minimum time for the permanent change to be in place before another correction could be made if it doesn't play out.

[Tom E]

So much for shooting USPSA revolver when I return from deployment. You guys are going to kill the revolver division, maybe that is what you want? I just don't understand it, there is only ONE manufacturer producing only ONE model of revolver that carries 8 rounds. It would be different if say, Ruger or another manufacturer, would also produce an 8 shot model but that is not the case. Maybe a certain manufacturer has bought off the BOD?

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=250&category=Revolver&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=lf2

Are ported guns permitted in revolver division ?

oops, flaw in the plan

"flaw in the plan" Easy fix. Make any OE barrel legal, even factory ported/comped. With minor loads none of the factory ported/comped barrels do diddle and it would make more guns Division legal.

[scottyinAZ]

I AGREE with Tom E above. if someone has an issue with a factory Taurus barrel giving them a competitive advantage they are in the wrong game.....

[Tom E]

Sent to my Area Director:

Revolver: 8 minor / 6 major

I'm in favor plus:

8 shooters scored minor with a >120PF

6 & 7 shooters, moonclip fed, scored major with a >160 PF, scored minor with a >120 to 160 PF

6 & 7 shooters, speedloader fed, scored major with a >120 PF

Minor 8: Make any OE barrel legal, including factory ported/comped.

With minor loads none of the factory ported/comped barrels do diddle and it would make more guns Division legal, like the Taurus 8 shooter and the V comp S&W's. Lets do our best to get away from the "one gun" Revolver Division that's contributed to the sorry position we're in now.

[Northern Xtreme]

Why dont you just say if it has a cylinder anything goes?

It seems like you want a place to be able to play with your open class revolvers. So since there arent enough current revolver division shooters in the USPSA, just throw out that divsion and start a new one, Open revolver.

Maybe you will have better participation, maybe there are more ICORE guys out there than there are USPSA revolver shooters.

I think many of your USPSA revolver shooters play in both sports and perhaps many would rather use their ICORE guns for USPSA, that is what it sounds like to me.

Maybe the gain in new ICORE guys coming over to play will offset the number of die hard USPSA 6 shot guys you will lose.

I think it is transforming revolver division from a fairly stock gun division like production to a more specialized equipment divison like open.

But if the current revolver division is DOA, then I guess something needs to be done.

RIP revolver division, it was fun.

I am going to have to keep my eyes out for a good deal on an 8 shooter now, I'm glad I didnt just buy another 625.

[Forrest Halley]

How about we let six shooters have one gun in each hand like SASS? That way they start with twelve and it'll be fair again in the eyes of some and not others because they'll have less reloads....

[mcb]

At this late date I am not sure this info will change any minds but I had too much fun doing it so I am going to share it.

Since last Sunday I have shot 14 stages with both 6-shot and 8-shot revolvers. My setups gun wise is as identical as I could make it. 6-shot is a 5-inch 625, 8-shot is a 5-inch 627. Both have the same fiber optic front sight, same modified Hogue Grips and same California Competition cylinder release. The same Bladetech holster was used as well as the same 4 post Northern Mountain Moon clip holder. I was shooting ~168 PF 230gr RN in the 625, and ~130 PF 158gr RN in 627.

The fourteen stages ranged from 10rds to 31rds, averaging 21.4rds/stage, total round count of 300rds.

I scored it as if it was two person match, using the high HF for each stage as usual for match points. The Minor 8-shot won but only by a narrow margin.

8-shot had 1381.8 match pts

6-shot had 1350.3 match pts

6-shot had 97.77% of 8-shot match points <-Corrected was 99.7% I Fat fingered the keyboard guys

Total points possible was 1500.

8-shot raw points was 1331

6-shot raw points was 1388

both had 40 pts in penalties

8-shot had a total trigger time of 322.6 sec

6-shot had a total trigger time of 353.12 sec

6-shot won 8 of 14 stages despite losing in the total match points.

If it make any difference I am a B-class shooter and have been shooting revolver in USPSA competition since 2006.

Finally I hope you all realize the great sacrifice I have made to bring you this data. Now I am off to put ice on the blister on my strong hand thumb!

ETA made a minor correction I notice on the percentage of match points

Edited September 3, 2013 by mcb

[ed_henry]

Mcb guns smoke too much

. If you switch to jacketed bullets you will shoot faster with the 8 round gun.

[Carmoney]

At this late date I am not sure this info will change any minds but I had too much fun doing it so I am going to share it.

Since last Sunday I have shot 14 stages with both 6-shot and 8-shot revolvers. My setups gun wise is as identical as I could make it. 6-shot is a 5-inch 625, 8-shot is a 5-inch 627. Both have the same fiber optic front sight, same modified Hogue Grips and same California Competition cylinder release. The same Bladetech holster was used as well as the same 4 post Northern Mountain Moon clip holder. I was shooting ~168 PF 230gr RN in the 625, and ~130 PF 158gr RN in 627.

The fourteen stages ranged from 10rds to 31rds, averaging 21.4rds/stage, total round count of 300rds.

I scored it as if it was two person match, using the high HF for each stage as usual for match points. The Minor 8-shot won but only by a narrow margin.

8-shot had 1381.8 match pts

6-shot had 1350.3 match pts

6-shot had 99.7% of 8-shot match points

Total points possible was 1500.

8-shot raw points was 1331

6-shot raw points was 1388

both had 40 pts in penalties

8-shot had a total trigger time of 322.6 sec

6-shot had a total trigger time of 353.12 sec

6-shot won 8 of 14 stages despite losing in the total match points.

If it make any difference I am a B-class shooter and have been shooting revolver in USPSA competition since 2006.

Finally I hope you all realize the great sacrifice I have made to bring you this data. Now I am off to put ice on the blister on my strong hand thumb!

Great post! I have always maintained that 6-major and 8-minor revolvers are much closer to parity than most people realize. Looks like in this instance, in your hands and on these particular stages, the two platforms were a virtual wash.

[Bubber]

I would not call it a wash. You scored approx 4% less points than major but shaved almost 9% time off of your score. The 8 shot lets you be close all match and then comes down hard on the 8 shot friendly stages. It only verifies what Chris C. Stated "the 8 shot will always be equal to the 6 shot but not conversly so for the 6 shot" Roger Davis

[mcb]

I would not call it a wash. You scored approx 4% less points than major but shaved almost 9% time off of your score. The 8 shot lets you be close all match and then comes down hard on the 8 shot friendly stages. It only verifies what Chris C. Stated "the 8 shot will always be equal to the 6 shot but not conversly so for the 6 shot" Roger Davis

Not sure I follow? The round count for each of the fourteen stages resulted in eight stages giving 8-shot a one-reload advantage and one stage giving 8-shot a two-reload advantage and yet we have only a 2.23% win? Of the 9 stages that gave 8-shot a reload advantage 8-shot only won 5 of them. I am not seeing any huge advantage 8-shot has over Major scoring.

Any number of factors could swing the results back the other way. I made mental errors, bad shots etc with both guns, any of which had I avoided could have easily swung this match several percentage points either direction.

For example. The biggest points difference on a stage was on the one 31rd stage. I mentally fell down with 6-shot and got a double mike and FTE penalty. I was so messed in the brain, even skipping that target, that it still took me 16 seconds longer (Texas Star got me) than 8-shot to finish the stage. If I had simply not skipped that target (replaced the 2-Mike-FTE with 2 alpha and not change the glacially long time most of which was spent on the Star) it makes this almost a dead even match (<1 point spread!).

Looking back at the data I could easily come up with a few other mental/marksmanship mistakes that could move this virtual match several percentage points either direction for either gun.

If it would be at all helpful I can post the data.

[pbosik]

Does it factor at all that shooting minor instead of major should be a more pleasant experience ? I'm not recoil sensitive, but the 625 does feel different..like comparing my G34 production pistol to my 35 limited pistol, one minor, the other major.

[Tom E]

If it would be at all helpful I can post the data.

Not sure it matters. Those who think the sky will fall will still think the sky will fall.

What might be more important is "which was more fun? Shooting 6 major or 8 minor?"

[Bubber]

mcb. you are correct in the theory that you can loose more points by mistakes than can be gained or lost in the 8 Minor vs 6 Major. But the point I am trying to make is that the lower the number is for the divisior (time) the more difference it will make on hit factors If it was an equal difference in time and points, Say a 6 percent difference, then the hitfactor will be the same. And then you have to factor in what the best on the stage did to determine your score. In a standard 8 shot array a six shot will have to eat as much as 2 seconds to the 8 shot, and that is a lot to make up for the point difference and everytime this happens in a stage it imcreases the differences. It can be all negated with good stage design. Where a distinct advantage major scoring has is on the upper AB zone. One would have to accept B hits for speed, A 1 point deduction for Major and a 2 point deduction for Minor. Minor has it all over Major on Steel arrays as there are no difference in points. And Tom E. It is more fun to shoot 8 minor, although it does take a little of the skill set needed for Revo. As I shoot minor anyway it is a no brainer for me which I will shoot if available. Later rdd

[mcb]

Thanks for the clarification Bubber.

As I have said before I support 8-shot Minor in Revolver but a small part of me is apprehensive. At present I shoot 8-shot in Production and 6-shot in Revolver. If they make 8-shot Revolver legal I will have to choose which to declare in Revolver... And if I declare 8-shot Revolver I have to really shoot with my foot in a bucket declaring 6-shot in L-10.

For me both are equally fun to shoot. At a club level match where I frequently get to shoot the match twice I love to break the stages down for each and see how it falls out. I have run into more than one stage that was easy to break down for one gun and a total pain in the arse to break down for the other. Odd number array sizes are the bane of the Revolver shooter 6 or 8 shot!

[Northern Xtreme]

Its not a matter of the sky falling. Because it will not. The game will change and it will go on.

Maybe participation will increase, to what degree is yet to be seen. Hopefully alot.

It just seems rediculous to me that some of you maintain that the eight shot revolver will not be an advantage.

If it changes to eight shot legal, tell me what gun is used by the top shooters at the nationals.

I understand there are many guys enthusiastic about using their 8 shooters in USPSA revovler division, thats great, maybe its the birth of a new revolver craze.

But for you to say there is not going to be any equipment advantage does not pas the straight face test to me.

[Northern Xtreme]

If you all went to the revolver nats with your six shooters and one master class shooter showed up with an eight shooter and they said, we are going to allow him to use this.

Tell me how many of you guys would be crying foul play?

If you say you wouldnt then you are full of crap!

[ChrisC]

i wouldn't show up to nationals with less than an 8 shot.

[Bosshoss]

I don't see any 6 shot guns finishing in the top 20 maybe top 40 at nationals.