Vanniek71 Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) Was kind of an odd DQ and still trying to figure out how/what happened.I shot the stage, and at the finish waited for the RO's command, unloaded showed clear and holstered. When I was done RO says "I'm going to DQ you"At first I thought it was a joke because I couldn't think of why, wasn't told to stop at any point, I was always pointed down range etc....He said I muzzled myself twice during the unload and show clear,I still can't figure out how I did it, and he couldn't fully explain what he saw, other than he saw me do it twice.I have worked through my reloads, and have gone through the unload and show clear and can't figure out how I got my hand in the way.It happens to us all I guess, just wish I "knew" what happened so I could fix it! Edited June 17, 2013 by Vanniek71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaGunner Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 How could he not explain and why didn't he stop you as soon as it happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 can't figure out how I got my hand in the way. wish I "knew" what happened so I could fix it! Sounds like you might want to start filming yourself (helmet cam?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Was kind of an odd DQ and still trying to figure out how/what happened. I shot the stage, and at the finish waited for the RO's command, unloaded showed clear and holstered. When I was done RO says "I'm going to DQ you" At first I thought it was a joke because I couldn't think of why, wasn't told to stop at any point, I was always pointed down range etc.... He said I muzzled myself twice. I still can't figure out how I did it, and he couldn't fully explain what he saw, other than he saw me do it twice. I have worked through my reloads, and have gone through the unload and show clear and can't figure out how I got my hand in the way. It happens to us all I guess, just wish I "knew" what happened so I could fix it! If he could not explain it to you then he would also be unable to explain it to the CRO/RM or the arbitration committee. I have not DQ'ed someone for it yet, but I have counseled a few new shooters to watch their hands, feet and muzzles. They would bring the gun close to their chest followed by the hand with the mag so that they needed to look down to see the magwell. The gun should not be closer to your body than the magazine that is in the other hand as you start your reload. Our biggest one for newer shooters is teaching them to not swing the muzzle down towards the ground as they come around a wall. Sweep their feet or discharge a round within 10' and their day is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanniek71 Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 I wish i was a new shooter and would just take someones word for what I did wrong, but I am not. It was a major match and there was a lot of hustle and bustle, when the MD came over they went and chatted and came back, and it was determined I was done. I wasn't going to raise a stink about it, I just took it on the chin and chalked it up to a learning moment, but after I got home and ran through my reloads, and even just an unload, I CANNOT see how I would have muzzled my off hand, unless I TRIED to put it in front of my muzzle. its the hand I am catching the mag as it drops with.....then stowing the mag, and then I go right from the mag stow to my slide to rack it...... Thats why I said I wish I could have seen what happened so I can fix it. (and to who said you should film yourself.....I had a buddy filming, but he stopped as I got finished with the stage.....didn't figure he needed to film more lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanniek71 Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 How could he not explain and why didn't he stop you as soon as it happened? He said it was during my unload and show clear, NOT during the stage run. Thats what has me so baffled! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) Where are you putting your hand on your slide to rack it for ULSC? would be nice if the RO could have verbalized what he saw. Do you keep the gun pointed straight downrange while dropping the mag and racking slide, or do you point it to the side (and potentially at your weak arm?) Edited June 17, 2013 by sfinney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.roberts Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 I would have a HUGE problem taking a trip to the Dairy Queen if the RO couldn't articulate exactly what I did, before he talked to the RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 I can think of two scenarios. Thumb and forefinger under the frame pinching the front serrations on the slide to ULASC. Hand passes in front of the muzzle as you move fingers into place. Hand grasping the slide with the palm resting on top of the slide. Shooter muzzles their elbow/forearm by swinging the muzzle inside the weak arm as they apply the necessary force to open the slide. If you do not use either of these techniques I do not see how you can muzzle yourself. I, like most shooters I see, grasp the rear of the slide between my thumb and forefinger and pull it to the rear leaving the port and chamber very visible for the RO to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProGunGuy Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 what i do on both the make ready and ulsc is i push the gun forward as much as i can, and then put my weak hand on my chest and then holster. gets the weak hand out of the way quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 This may or may not apply in your case, to be a valid call - The RO must be able to say, 'I saw', 'I know', the RO saying 'I think' or 'I am not sure' doesn't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanniek71 Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) Where are you putting your hand on your slide to rack it for ULSC? would be nice if the RO could have verbalized what he saw. Do you keep the gun pointed straight downrange while dropping the mag and racking slide, or do you point it to the side (and potentially at your weak arm?) I roll my gun 90 degrees towards my left arm and keep it pointed straight down range, then I grasp the slide right in front of the chamber and rack it back to hold it open for the RO. To get to that position I come from my stow point (left pocket) directly to the slide...hence why I am not sure how I could muzzle myself. I would have a HUGE problem taking a trip to the Dairy Queen if the RO couldn't articulate exactly what I did, before he talked to the RM. I wasn't happy by any means, but I also could only go off the RO's word since I still have no idea what happened lol. I am a MD myself and know sometimes the pressure those guys are under, and I didn't want to make the dude's day any harder. After feedback on here maybe I should have. I told him you "saw what you saw, but I have no idea how it's possible." He just repeated I definately saw you do it twice. I can think of two scenarios. Thumb and forefinger under the frame pinching the front serrations on the slide to ULASC. Hand passes in front of the muzzle as you move fingers into place. Hand grasping the slide with the palm resting on top of the slide. Shooter muzzles their elbow/forearm by swinging the muzzle inside the weak arm as they apply the necessary force to open the slide. If you do not use either of these techniques I do not see how you can muzzle yourself. I, like most shooters I see, grasp the rear of the slide between my thumb and forefinger and pull it to the rear leaving the port and chamber very visible for the RO to see. I dont use either, I do grasp the slide right in front of the chamber so the RO can see past my hand, but in putting my hand there, I at no point would have to reach in front of the muzzle, which is why I even started this thread, I am still not sure how I managed to get my hand in front of my muzzle with the way I unload and show clear. I will shoot a video for you guys and show you what exactly I do (I even practice it lol) and see if you guys can see I am doing something wrong.... Edited June 17, 2013 by Vanniek71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanniek71 Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 This may or may not apply in your case, to be a valid call - The RO must be able to say, 'I saw', 'I know', the RO saying 'I think' or 'I am not sure' doesn't get it. He said he "saw" me do it twice, but could not explain how I did it, he kind of showed me by waving his hand in front of an imaginary gun.. which looks nothing like my unload procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanniek71 Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) I have not DQ'ed someone for it yet, but I have counseled a few new shooters to watch their hands, feet and muzzles. I wish I would have gotten a warning or something like that for a few reasons #1 it couldn't be explained or demonstrated properly #2 It was a major match #3 I got to shoot 31 rounds and I was done for the day #4 I had a pretty good stage run, and after seeing the scores I likely would have won my class Ahh well safety is #1, and like I have been told many times there are shooters that haven't been DQ'd yet, and shooters that have been DQ'd. Edited June 17, 2013 by Vanniek71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanniek71 Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 (edited) Ok here is a link to my unload and show clear. Only thing I can see is my hand is close to the end of the muzzle when I rack the slide back...but it never crosses it. Guess I'm just going to switch to using the back of the slide so there is no mistakes Edited June 18, 2013 by Vanniek71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillChunn Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Guess I'm just going to switch to using the back of the slide so there is no mistakes The RO will be viewing your hand movement from a different angle. As you stated, if you don't go anywhere near the muzzle and just use the rear serrations on the back of the slide, it will be impossible for the RO to say you swept yourself. Just my 2 cents.... BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike l m Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 If the RO can not explain and or show you what you did to be DQed, then it can not happen. I know if I have to tell some shooter he or she is done for the day, I explain what I saw and so forth. Most folks do not like it but they usually agree when it is fully brought to their attention. I hope you handled it well, sounds like you did. Sorry to hear about it. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdawgbeav Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Ok here is a link to my unload and show clear. Only thing I can see is my hand is close to the end of the muzzle when I rack the slide back...but it never crosses it. Guess I'm just going to switch to using the back of the slide so there is no mistakes I guess I can see where the RO might have construed that as unsafe. But if he's really paying attention then you can clearly see you didn't muzzle yourself. Then again we weren't there and maybe he saw something different. Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 PM sent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanniek71 Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 .I hope you handled it well, sounds like you did. Sorry to hear about it.Mike I stayed until the end of the match (13 stages) brassing, pasting and helping. I understand he was just doing his job, even if I didn't like it. Gonna coin this one a learner, and switch to back of the slide unloads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 (edited) I agree that safety is important, but I don't see how an RO can be *certain* something happened if he can't explain it or demonstrate it properly. I think I would have (politely) made that point to the RM and asked for more explanation. I have been unfortunate enough to make the call when a couple people dq'd themselves, and I was darn sure of the call, and could clearly articulate it and demonstrate exactly where they were facing when the gun came out while still facing uprange. If I couldn't explain it and demonstrate it, I don't think I could make the call. Lots of very experienced competitors use the forward cocking serrations when loading and unloading. Shouldn't really be a problem imho. Edited June 18, 2013 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpygravy Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Ok here is a link to my unload and show clear. Only thing I can see is my hand is close to the end of the muzzle when I rack the slide back...but it never crosses it. Guess I'm just going to switch to using the back of the slide so there is no mistakes Based on your video, the only way I can see that you could possibly sweep yourself is when reaching for the front of the slide to unload the chambered round. You clearly didn't sweep yourself in the video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkm Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Lesson for next time.. Call the RM, if the RO couldn't articulate what you did it would be awful hard to reference a rule number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoyellowlabs Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 I still remember one of my first matches. It was a heels touching marks and spin and draw. I drew and did a Michael Jackson. I could hear everyone do the Holy Crap sigh. Needless to say, I was DQ'd but still hung around to tape. I felt so bad. But, I learned a valuable lesson that day and thank God nobody got hurt. I was watched very closely the next couple of matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 If I am not 100 % sure the shooter did something to warrant a DQ I am not going to DQ them. If I could not explain what they did and then show them I would tell them to be careful during ULSC because it looked like it was close to sweeping from my perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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