Questionable Power Factor at a local match

[juan]

If it's a level 1 match, who cares? The most you can win around here at a L1 is a free match entry. If he's serious about shooting, and he shows up with those loads at a larger match, he'll find out he's shooting for no score. If he's willing to trade his integrity for $20, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

There is also the possibility that his rounds make major, and you just assume they don't. The only way to know is to shoot them over a chrono.

year end awards could be a couple hundred bucks.

fighting for the national slot ?

[sperman]

If it's a level 1 match, who cares? The most you can win around here at a L1 is a free match entry. If he's serious about shooting, and he shows up with those loads at a larger match, he'll find out he's shooting for no score. If he's willing to trade his integrity for $20, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

There is also the possibility that his rounds make major, and you just assume they don't. The only way to know is to shoot them over a chrono.

year end awards could be a couple hundred bucks.

fighting for the national slot ?

We don't have year end awards around here. I don't think our SC looks at match results when awarding slots.

It's interesting to learn how things are done in other regions. I just assumed that how it is done locally is the same way things are done everywhere.

[bthoefer]

At this point it's not about awards or money, just about trying to contain a potential issue before it becomes one.

If it was just me I'd just shoot and let him deal with the fallout from other shooters, I just don't want it to interfere with the match getting better (new club and really starting to get better local shooters coming out).

[Tuflehundon]

Again, you can get 200 grain jacketed bullets in 40. With the right powder, almost no sound and no recoil. It's a lot of fun if you can find the load. I have a 357 that I loaded to major with 158 grainers. Almost no recoil.

But, I'd just ignore it. I'm assuming that, if he's doing this, he's not in any danger of winning the match.

Could be this. I don't reload yet, but by ammo from a local reloader. I shoot a Glock 22 in Limited. The reloads I buy shoot much softer and are much quieter than factory loads. Depends on which powder is used, I have been testing a few out. I have borrowed a chrono to test my loads and I do make PF, just barely, but I do.

At a local match with no prizes other than pride, I wouldn't worry about it to much.

[Sudden Death]

Before you say anything, the next time he shoots a stage, just be nice and pick up his mags for him, swipe 3 or 4 rounds, shoot three in a glock and pull the other , then you will know if you need to say something or not .........

[Sarge]

If it's a level 1 match, who cares? The most you can win around here at a L1 is a free match entry. If he's serious about shooting, and he shows up with those loads at a larger match, he'll find out he's shooting for no score. If he's willing to trade his integrity for $20, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

There is also the possibility that his rounds make major, and you just assume they don't. The only way to know is to shoot them over a chrono.

year end awards could be a couple hundred bucks.

fighting for the national slot ?

We don't have year end awards around here. I don't think our SC looks at match results when awarding slots.

It's interesting to learn how things are done in other regions. I just assumed that how it is done locally is the same way things are done everywhere.

Bad assumptions for sure. The SC should be giving slots as allocated to the MD's to award as he sees fit. I awarded some of mine based on year end performance. Also, we have club champions in each division. They get a discount on annual club dues.

Still, not enough for me to start worrying about somebody making power factor. If they are competitive enough to finish high in the results they are probably shooting the occasional level II or higher. I hope they get caught there if they are not making PF.

[kevin c]

Bring a chrono and announce that it is availble to match attendees to test their loads. As pointed out, the honest will largely be keen to take advantage of the opportunity. If your suspect hangs back, casually mention in front of the crowd that you love the way his load shoots and ask if you could shoot a few rounds through your own gun to see if it makes major through your barrel. If it does, you can ask him for his magic load. If it doesn't, or he refuses, then you have put him on notice, and that's probably as good as you're going to get, under the circumstances.

[Jay870]

He is shooting a Limited Glock in .40 cal.

There are other competitors shooting limited with various similar guns and ammo. I would not be surprised if the ammo in question didn't make minor (based purely on my and other shooter's observations). There is at least one other competitor shooting .40 minor in production and the questionable ammo is a lot softer that that.

There is zero question in my mind that the ammo is NOT Major (and might not make minor).

I shoot a Glock 24. I load Solo powder with 180gr bullets and have had lots of people tell me how mild it sounds. It has never gone less than 170 PF at any chrono'd match.

Maybe the guy is a cheater and a liar, maybe he has a quiet load and good recoil control.

[Team Amish 1]

You can get a chrono for less than $100.

Normally, I'd say, 'Who cares?', but if there is money in it at the end of the year, I'd get a little more interested in fairness.

Then again, who has the time to run everyone's ammo over a chrono at a local match??

BTW, I've received strange looks before, too, shooting Clays in .40. They do sound and feel like bunnyfarts. Juuuust sayin'....

[bthoefer]

There is another shooter at the match who shoots .40 Minor using 200 or 180 grain jacketed bullets and n320 out of an XDm. The questionable shooter's load is noticeable quieter and softer recoiling than this by comparison. If it were even close I would just tell people to let it go.

[pskys2]

I got a nickel that says he declares minor once a chrono appears.

:-) I do not know which is harder to teach;

how to think or how to be honorable.

borrow a chrono?

miranda

No doubt, how to be honorable (actually don't think it can be taught). Teaching one to think may actually encourage subverting the other.

Or it could be the guy doesn't have a clue.

Take the high road, your rep as an organizer is more important to your new club than someone playing loose with the rules.

Edited June 2, 2013 by pskys2

[Ronnie j]

He is shooting a Limited Glock in .40 cal.

There are other competitors shooting limited with various similar guns and ammo. I would not be surprised if the ammo in question didn't make minor (based purely on my and other shooter's observations). There is at least one other competitor shooting .40 minor in production and the questionable ammo is a lot softer that that.

There is zero question in my mind that the ammo is NOT Major (and might not make minor).

Names dammit

[Nik Habicht]

Before you say anything, the next time he shoots a stage, just be nice and pick up his mags for him, swipe 3 or 4 rounds, shoot three in a glock and pull the other , then you will know if you need to say something or not .........

I'm pretty sure I'd impose a 10.6.1 DQ on a competitor stealing another competitor's ammo.....

Either there's a chrono, or there's not. Setting up a chrono correctly, isn't as easy as it sounds -- but there's a whole appendix to guide anyone wanting to do it...

[Nik Habicht]

Bring a chrono and announce that it is availble to match attendees to test their loads. As pointed out, the honest will largely be keen to take advantage of the opportunity. If your suspect hangs back, casually mention in front of the crowd that you love the way his load shoots and ask if you could shoot a few rounds through your own gun to see if it makes major through your barrel. If it does, you can ask him for his magic load. If it doesn't, or he refuses, then you have put him on notice, and that's probably as good as you're going to get, under the circumstances.

I like that plan, or setting the chrono stage...

[Nik Habicht]

He is shooting a Limited Glock in .40 cal.

There are other competitors shooting limited with various similar guns and ammo. I would not be surprised if the ammo in question didn't make minor (based purely on my and other shooter's observations). There is at least one other competitor shooting .40 minor in production and the questionable ammo is a lot softer that that.

There is zero question in my mind that the ammo is NOT Major (and might not make minor).

Names dammit

No -- we don't do that here.

[bthoefer]

Ronnie,

I'll hit you up on Facebook with details.

[blaster113]

The unannounced chrono is the best fix for the guy intentionally shooting minor or sub-minor. I think every club should have access to a chrono, even if the club is small a few shooters can throw a few bucks in a pot then everyone can use it. My cheapy sub $100 Pro Chrono Digital is simple and works well. It has always been pretty much on the money when I have my chronoed at majors. If someone is unintentionally shooting minor or sub-minor then they can adjust their loads.

Edited June 2, 2013 by blaster113

[Miranda]

I got a nickel that says he declares minor once a chrono appears.

:-) I do not know which is harder to teach;

how to think or how to be honorable.

borrow a chrono?

miranda

No doubt, how to be honorable (actually don't think it can be taught). Teaching one to think may actually encourage subverting the other.

Or it could be the guy doesn't have a clue.

Take the high road, your rep as an organizer is more important to your new club than someone playing loose with the rules.

I often wonder who reads my posts...

hi pskys2,

I agree that of the two, getting honorable actions (thus proof of learning it) is harder.

just keep in mind, I don't know any way to teach how to think...

In the interests of staying close to topic, the (proverbial) fellow shooting under-powered ammo

is not thinking at all, expecting Honorable action is difficult to imagine.

There is little to gain from deciding to use out of spec ammo.

there may be a few in this sport who get some cash.

As it is now, most will never get more than the Honors contained in a Trophy.

so Honor is all we have to give or take.

To take the honors, you have to bring some to the sport.

miranda

[JKSNIPER]

Try and get the club to subsidize the purchase of the chrono but if its that important to to you then buy it on your own.

Then announce waaay prior to the match that all competitors will have to chrono their ammo.

This way the guy in question does not feel singled out and you will accomplish your goal of having everyone correctly declare major or minor.

[ben b.]

I recently shot with a buddy out of state who has been doing USPSA for ~ 2 years. He shoots a 9mm M&P in with factory ammo declared as LTD Major PF, and had no idea that he was doing wrong.

Edited June 4, 2013 by ben b.

[BillChunn]

We have one gentleman at the club who is a past NRA National Rifle Champion. He's in his 80's. His eyesight isn't as good as it was so he doesn't shoot rifle any longer, he has transitioned to pistol. He has an Open Glock in 9mm with a C-More sight. This past Saturday he asked if I would sight it in because at the last match, it was hitting high.

It's possible that the ammunition would make the 125 power factor, but probably not.

The MD and other club members don't really make a big deal out of this situation. In 20 years, there has never been a chrono stage at this club's local matches. I doubt that there ever will.

We are just delighted that this guy gets out and shoots. His draw times are consistent between 1.2 and 1.5 seconds.

Hopefully when I'm in my 80's, I'll be able to do what he is doing today.

BC

[Babaganoosh]

Can you bump the match fee 5 bucks one month and use the proceeds to buy a chrono? As others have said the pro chrono digital is a great chrono for the money. Then set the chrono up on the classifier stage. As a bonus it slows down the back up you get caused by the chrono stage moving so quickly.

[Sin-ster]

If you all have a website or newsletter or some way of contacting your club members prior to a match, announce that there will be a chrono at the next one-- mandatory.

If he doesn't show up, suspect.

If he shows up with obviously different loads declaring Major, suspect.

If he shows up and declares Minor, suspect.

If he shows up with what looks/sounds like the same load and he makes Major, buy him a beer and feel like a jackwagon... (LOL.)

You don't have to set up the chrono, or even have one, to pull this little subterfuge. And though not entirely truthful, it's far less dishonest than running sub-Minor loads and declaring them Major.

[Spray_N_Prey]

Two options only:

Option 1: Use a chrono

Option 2: Use shooters declared power factor

Option 3: take away from your shooting experience by worrying about what other shooters are or aren't doing, wait I said only 2 options, so I guess this just isn't an option.

Get a chrono or let it go..

[DRichardson]

If you all have a website or newsletter or some way of contacting your club members prior to a match, announce that there will be a chrono at the next one-- mandatory.

If he doesn't show up, suspect.

If he shows up with obviously different loads declaring Major, suspect.

If he shows up and declares Minor, suspect.

If he shows up with what looks/sounds like the same load and he makes Major, buy him a beer and feel like a jackwagon... (LOL.)

You don't have to set up the chrono, or even have one, to pull this little subterfuge. And though not entirely truthful, it's far less dishonest than running sub-Minor loads and declaring them Major.

I like this one.