Questionable Power Factor at a local match

[bthoefer]

How should you handle a competitor who is claiming Major PF but shooting ammo that is clearly Minor? The club doesn't have access to a chrono and it is a small weekly match. The report and recoil of the ammo in question appears to be far too soft for major, comparable or even softer to other competitors shooting minor.

How would you handle the issue?

Edited May 31, 2013 by bthoefer

[jbc98c]

5.6.1

In the absence of official match chronograph(s), the power factor declared by

a competitor cannot be challenged.

[Ssanders224]

5.6.1

In the absence of official match chronograph(s), the power factor declared by

a competitor cannot be challenged.

Yep.

Have a match chrono or take his word for it.

Pretty much the only options.

[Miranda]

I got a nickel that says he declares minor once a chrono appears.

:-) I do not know which is harder to teach;

how to think or how to be honorable.

borrow a chrono?

miranda

[CHA-LEE]

NOBODY that shoots the match has a chrono that could be "Borrowed" for a club match to validate competitors declared power factor? I find that hard to believe. That and how much is a cheap chrono? $100. If a club can't swing that expense then there are other major issues to worry about.

If I was the Match Director facing this issue I would use my own chrono to setup an unannounced chrono at the next club match. Doing this once or twice a year goes a long way in keeping the shooters above board.

[bthoefer]

It's a new club, still getting things set up. I'm sure we can borrow a chrono eventually. I was more wondering how you would approach the issue. It's kinda a bummer to have to set up a chrono and sacrifice the time from a stage, since we already run tight on time.

Once we can come up with a chrono, how would you run the chrono? Try and build it into a stage, or set up a dedicated chrono stage?

[Steve RA]

Don't put a chrono in a stage or it won't last thru the first squad !!!

[bikerburgess]

If I was a shooter at a match with no chrono and one of my squad mates was running obviously under powered ammo the verbal abuse would be pretty thick until they were able to convince me I was wrong. I would say that if the shooter has been asked about it to verify that they are aware of the rules and how power factor is calculated and they say they are in compliance then I would add a chrono stage to a match, or if I was short on time I would announce that there would be a chrono stage at the next match and see if ammo or PF declaration changed.

Mike

[jbc98c]

Chrono generally doesn't take too long. But it does take people. Pull a bullet and weigh it. The rule book has the exact way to do it per the rules. Just out of curiosity, what is he shooting? You can get some real bunny fart loads that make major with a heavy enough bullet.

[thegunnerd]

For me , my local matches don't chrono. Not so anal about it I guess. Personally if i'm shooting locally i don't much care if someone is making PF. It's only to their detriment when they shoot a real match and now have trouble controlling their snappier gun.

[EkuJustice]

Heck you could always bring one and then not use it because the batteries were dead etc and watch him squirm at registration

[bikerburgess]

It's a new club, still getting things set up. I'm sure we can borrow a chrono eventually. I was more wondering how you would approach the issue. It's kinda a bummer to have to set up a chrono and sacrifice the time from a stage, since we already run tight on time.

Once we can come up with a chrono, how would you run the chrono? Try and build it into a stage, or set up a dedicated chrono stage?

it would have to be its own stage run per the rule book, that said it can be run next to one of the shorter stages or a classifier.

Chrono officer tests ammo then give gun back to competitor, then competitor makes ready and shoots a short stage

the worst part is pulling and weighing the bullets.

Mike

[bikerburgess]

Heck you could always bring one and then not use it because the batteries were dead etc and watch him squirm at registration

this is easiest

[jbc98c]

Just for some thoughts, I've seen people load 45acp 250 grain bullets. You only need 660 fps to make major. With a 230, you're only at 717. It doesn't take a whole lot for the heavy bullets. If he's shooting a 200 grainer, which a lot of people do in 40's, it's only 825. You're looking like 3.5 grains of titegroup to make major. So, they sound and look soft, but they make major.

[GrumpyOne]

I'm betting he wouldn't pass even if you didn't weigh the bullets. But, if you do the chrono stage, it needs to be a complete suprise, to everyone...can't test one without testing them all....and I've been beat, in production, by people declaring minor, and when their ammo was chronoed, it went 105 pf. I had kidded the person before, saying I found one of their bullets stuck in the cardboard target.

[Poppa Bear]

What is he shooting? Who is shooting a similar gun? I can load 3 shells into my STI. One is a Clays load, one is a Universal load, and the third is a Longshot load. All three will be close in PF but the gallery would all think I was shooting Minor or Sub-Minor with the Clays load it sounds that soft. The Longshot load people would be thinking I was shooting 190 to 200+ PF it is that loud.

Ask him what he is shooting and see if you can try a couple in someone else's gun. You might be surprised at how it recoils.

[StraightUp_OG]

The rules are the rules but if I could be master of the world and I did not have a chrono available I would do the following.

Set up a popper, adjust the popper so that a minor load will not knock it over then confirm that a major round of the same caliber will knock it over then have him shoot it. If it falls he is telling the truth if it stands he is making up stories.

Edited May 31, 2013 by StraightUp_OG

[sperman]

If it's a level 1 match, who cares? The most you can win around here at a L1 is a free match entry. If he's serious about shooting, and he shows up with those loads at a larger match, he'll find out he's shooting for no score. If he's willing to trade his integrity for $20, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

There is also the possibility that his rounds make major, and you just assume they don't. The only way to know is to shoot them over a chrono.

[bthoefer]

He is shooting a Limited Glock in .40 cal.

There are other competitors shooting limited with various similar guns and ammo. I would not be surprised if the ammo in question didn't make minor (based purely on my and other shooter's observations). There is at least one other competitor shooting .40 minor in production and the questionable ammo is a lot softer that that.

There is zero question in my mind that the ammo is NOT Major (and might not make minor).

Edited May 31, 2013 by bthoefer

[bthoefer]

Also poppers are out due to the ricochet issues on the indoor range we use.

Edited May 31, 2013 by bthoefer

[StraightUp_OG]

Looks like you will have to take his word until a chrono arrives ...

[my00wrx1]

If I was a shooter at a match with no chrono and one of my squad mates was running obviously under powered ammo the verbal abuse would be pretty thick until they were able to convince me I was wrong. I would say that if the shooter has been asked about it to verify that they are aware of the rules and how power factor is calculated and they say they are in compliance then I would add a chrono stage to a match, or if I was short on time I would announce that there would be a chrono stage at the next match and see if ammo or PF declaration changed.

Mike

Take the high road and skip the abuse, you would look pretty bad if it made PF.

[jbc98c]

Again, you can get 200 grain jacketed bullets in 40. With the right powder, almost no sound and no recoil. It's a lot of fun if you can find the load. I have a 357 that I loaded to major with 158 grainers. Almost no recoil.

But, I'd just ignore it. I'm assuming that, if he's doing this, he's not in any danger of winning the match.

[Poppa Bear]

We have several personally owned Chronos at our club. Every so often we set one or two of them up and run our loads across them. We have had several shooters who are fairly new to reloading find out they were a bit light on their PF. We have had several established reloaders who were close but needed another tenth of a grain to get that extra buffer for when they shot a major match. We have had some who made major by a ways and found they could now back the loads off a bit..

The point in all of this is that everyone who was not shooting factory ammo WANTED to know how their loads were performing. They all wanted to be legal, wanted to have enough cushion to stay legal at a major match, wanted to make sure they were not shooting well above the required PF. No one had an interest in trying to cheat by claiming Major while shooting Minor, and anyone that slipped to the Minor side upped their loads during their next reloading session. They were not concerned about their performance during a local practice match. They were concerned about their performance at a larger match with a chrono stage.

[Shootersteve2011]

Shoot your gun and don't worry about the rest