Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[B_Seehawer]

I take exception to the statement:

I don't think that other guys are gonna quit shooting another division just because they can throw a dot and comp on a gun that is "on it's way out" in USPSA .

I shoot with a group that has a pistol for EVERY USPSA division! One more division is a reason to buy another pistol.

I shoot ICORE Open division with a S&W R8 and USPSA with a S&W 625, Open Revolver would give me another division to shoot in USPSA matches.

Why not try it?

Ok, so you shoot with a tiny minority. Terrible reason to start up a new division.

+1 for buying new guns though.

[cliffwalsh]

Thanks Rich. I understand your view. I never cared how many shooters there were. When I started, I was the only one locally, period. It took me a long time to figure out the equipment and loads and simple stuff like that. I always tell new shooters, give me 20 minutes and I'll save you 3 years of pain. I go to the local match and shoot with my buddies. Most don't shoot revo and that is fine. I am there to shoot and get better. To me a local match is for practice. Why not shoot your 627 in L-10 to practice for ICORE??? Does it matter if you win revo or come in last in L-10?? You shot the same stages and you win the same prize.

Why not show up shoot what you want and have fun??

[sperman]

My suggestion would be to hold some local matches where the revolver division is "run what you brung" and promote the hell out of it with the local revolver community. The MD will need to keep track of what shows up. That should give you an idea of the revolver guys who are staying away because USPSA doesn't have a place for their gun. My guess is the guys who want to shoot USPSA are already shooting USPSA; a few with revolvers, and the majority with semi-autos. Before we make bunch of changes to try and entice new shooters, wouldn't it be a good idea to know if those shooters exist, and what it is that is keeping them away?

[cliffwalsh]

Could not have said it better. thank you

[toothguy]

I think there should be an Open Revolver divison.

Would be just like regular open just with revolvers. That would mean you could use a 6,8, or 10 shot.

I personally would be willing to try it.

I think Open Revolver would be a terrible idea.

I don't that other guys are gonna quit shooting another division just because they can throw a dot and comp on a gun that is "on it's way out" in USPSA .

Almost sounds like some people are hunting for wood by wanting to make changes that suits them better by switching divisions.

Adding an open revolver division would be a way to tryout these ideas without hurting anyone. Kind of a stand alone experimental division.

The way to try it out is a revolver category in open. Creating a new division is not hoe you experiment.

That would be fine, either a subdivision of open or it's own. It could be changed and tweaked without effecting anyone else.

[Matt Griffin]

All I know is that I want this as my shirt:

This is awesome. Jerry the Merciless!! I guess I really didn't see him as evil, but I like the idea??

Oh wait, I get it now. That's supposed to be me, not Jerry! I'm the one with the hat, and I'm the one "vs. the fierce Mikulakk." For all your retro poster making fun, go here:

http://thrilling-tales.webomator.com/derange-o-lab/pulp-o-mizer/pulp-o-mizer.html

[ChrisC]

My suggestion would be to hold some local matches where the revolver division is "run what you brung" and promote the hell out of it with the local revolver community. The MD will need to keep track of what shows up. That should give you an idea of the revolver guys who are staying away because USPSA doesn't have a place for their gun. My guess is the guys who want to shoot USPSA are already shooting USPSA; a few with revolvers, and the majority with semi-autos. Before we make bunch of changes to try and entice new shooters, wouldn't it be a good idea to know if those shooters exist, and what it is that is keeping them away?

we have done that in Oklahoma City..... most people just shot their 625's....

[The Antichrome]

If there were a bunch of 8-shot revo owners out there just dying to shoot USPSA, they'd be shooting them in Production already.

The fact that they do not is because it would be virtually impossible to be competitive in USPSA or IDPA. Which is why if they want to shoot Production, they enter with a more suitable, division legal gun. Only Miculek should consider doing that, and even he would choose something else. Apples and oranges. It's not steel challenge or Bianchi we are talking about. Revo shooters like to do things the hard way but they aren't crazy!! Are you Mike?

A 10 shot semi auto with trigger moving .250 in. or less and a pull weight as little as 2 lbs that is twice as fast and easy to reload is just easier to shoot. We are trying to help the division, how it stacks up against others is less important.

BTW, it's pretty awesome that there so much interest in this issue. Makes me feel there will be a long future for the children of the wheel. Thanks for everyones input, regardless of which side you may be on. I hope Strader gets to read some of this.

My point was too subtle, please let me expand.

If a bunch of icore guys started showing up with 8 shot revos to shoot Production, they would get noticed.

Eventually, the BOD might start to think "Hey we gotta find a better place for these 8 shot revos to play"

Overall / unofficial results would show how they stack up against 6 shot 'major' revos.

Maybe they make revo-8 a 'category' or a sub-Division, or put them in with the 6-guns.

Its a chicken and egg issue, they are going to have to show up first, in significant numbers, to get anything changed.

I doubt USPSA is going to make changes to see if they show up.

BTW, didnt JM shoot Production Natl's with an 8 shooter a couple of years ago?

[Neomet]

Here is the only problem with running outlaw matchs that I can see. You will certainly test the waters to see how many folks who already own a 627 will come out and play. What you won't get however are guys like me who would consider shooting revo with a minor/8 shot but have no inclination to buy an entire setup for what could well turn out to be a nobel experiment and nothing more, leaving me with equipment that is not competitive in any USPSA division.

[B_Seehawer]

Here is the only problem with running outlaw matchs that I can see. You will certainly test the waters to see how many folks who already own a 627 will come out and play. What you won't get however are guys like me who would consider shooting revo with a minor/8 shot but have no inclination to buy an entire setup for what could well turn out to be a nobel experiment and nothing more, leaving me with equipment that is not competitive in any USPSA division.

And we still get their match fees:rolleyes:

[cliffwalsh]

Here is the only problem with running outlaw matchs that I can see. You will certainly test the waters to see how many folks who already own a 627 will come out and play. What you won't get however are guys like me who would consider shooting revo with a minor/8 shot but have no inclination to buy an entire setup for what could well turn out to be a nobel experiment and nothing more, leaving me with equipment that is not competitive in any USPSA division.

I think the point Mike is making is to attract the guys who already have a setup, ie ICORE.

[sperman]

Here is the only problem with running outlaw matchs that I can see. You will certainly test the waters to see how many folks who already own a 627 will come out and play. What you won't get however are guys like me who would consider shooting revo with a minor/8 shot but have no inclination to buy an entire setup for what could well turn out to be a nobel experiment and nothing more, leaving me with equipment that is not competitive in any USPSA division.

I thought the point was to attract new shooters to USPSA, not just move shooters from one division to another.

[Matt Griffin]

Here is the only problem with running outlaw matchs that I can see. You will certainly test the waters to see how many folks who already own a 627 will come out and play. What you won't get however are guys like me who would consider shooting revo with a minor/8 shot but have no inclination to buy an entire setup for what could well turn out to be a nobel experiment and nothing more, leaving me with equipment that is not competitive in any USPSA division.

For you, what about a simple 6-shot, minor-only, speedloader-only category with prizes?

[cliffwalsh]

If there were a bunch of 8-shot revo owners out there just dying to shoot USPSA, they'd be shooting them in Production already.

The fact that they do not is because it would be virtually impossible to be competitive in USPSA or IDPA. Which is why if they want to shoot Production, they enter with a more suitable, division legal gun. Only Miculek should consider doing that, and even he would choose something else. Apples and oranges. It's not steel challenge or Bianchi we are talking about. Revo shooters like to do things the hard way but they aren't crazy!! Are you Mike?

A 10 shot semi auto with trigger moving .250 in. or less and a pull weight as little as 2 lbs that is twice as fast and easy to reload is just easier to shoot. We are trying to help the division, how it stacks up against others is less important.

BTW, it's pretty awesome that there so much interest in this issue. Makes me feel there will be a long future for the children of the wheel. Thanks for everyones input, regardless of which side you may be on. I hope Strader gets to read some of this.

My point was too subtle, please let me expand.

If a bunch of icore guys started showing up with 8 shot revos to shoot Production, they would get noticed.

Eventually, the BOD might start to think "Hey we gotta find a better place for these 8 shot revos to play"

Overall / unofficial results would show how they stack up against 6 shot 'major' revos.

Maybe they make revo-8 a 'category' or a sub-Division, or put them in with the 6-guns.

Its a chicken and egg issue, they are going to have to show up first, in significant numbers, to get anything changed.

I doubt USPSA is going to make changes to see if they show up.

BTW, didnt JM shoot Production Natl's with an 8 shooter a couple of years ago?

That has been my point for the last 5 years this conversation has been going on. If you want to make a change, show up and shoot and if there are numbers the powers that be will address it. The only effort I have seen so far is guys posting from behind their computers. If you want a change, show up and be counted.. "Talk is cheap and it takes money to buy whiskey," to quote Dave Moss.

Jerry did shoot production nats a few years back. He thought it would be good practice for the Revo match the second half of the week. They don't change the stages much from match to match.

[Matt Griffin]

He came in about 75%, as I recall.

[Ty Hamby]

Ty, I have to call BS on most of that. You don't like shooting 8 shot arrays with 6 shots and you like minor. IDPA with a 625 in Major and there is no 6 round array rule. They have 8 and 7 shot arrays too and every reload is standing. The reasons you give for flying 3000 miles to shoot IDPA there and not USPSA doesn't make since. What is the difference between two revolver games???

IDPA is shooting and I enjoy it. Their courses are smaller, the shots are easier, and there are few options as to how to shoot a stage. I do not find it as much fun as USPSA.

Indoor Nationals is a bucket list match. This will be my first and possibly only time.

I shoot major revolver in IDPA due to the fact that after a match bump to expert in ESP last July, I decided to park all pistols in all sports (IDPA, USPSA, Ruger Rimfire) and take up a one year, personal commitment to shoot revolver only in every sport. I have not shot a pistol since. I bought a 617 to keep my promise in rimfire. I dont own an SSR legal gun or I might shoot that in IDPA if given the option.

Your right, Major is Major. With IDPA it is typically 12 rounds or less and the COF's typically tell everyone where to stand and where to reload. The freestyle nature of USPSA lends itself better to shooting 8 shots or more on 8 shot arrays. I cant bring myself to give up 2 rounds, to shoot revolver major only to watch my name further down the overall list. I know I know we are only competing with the others in our division.

You, Mike, Matt, and others bring a lot to revolver games. I am hopeful that the outcome of all this discussion is a USPSA division that is healthy for everyone for decades to come.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Ty Hamby

[TGO]

If there were a bunch of 8-shot revo owners out there just dying to shoot USPSA, they'd be shooting them in Production already.

The fact that they do not is because it would be virtually impossible to be competitive in USPSA or IDPA. Which is why if they want to shoot Production, they enter with a more suitable, division legal gun. Only Miculek should consider doing that, and even he would choose something else. Apples and oranges. It's not steel challenge or Bianchi we are talking about. Revo shooters like to do things the hard way but they aren't crazy!! Are you Mike?

A 10 shot semi auto with trigger moving .250 in. or less and a pull weight as little as 2 lbs that is twice as fast and easy to reload is just easier to shoot. We are trying to help the division, how it stacks up against others is less important.

BTW, it's pretty awesome that there so much interest in this issue. Makes me feel there will be a long future for the children of the wheel. Thanks for everyones input, regardless of which side you may be on. I hope Strader gets to read some of this.

My point was too subtle, please let me expand.

If a bunch of icore guys started showing up with 8 shot revos to shoot Production, they would get noticed.

Eventually, the BOD might start to think "Hey we gotta find a better place for these 8 shot revos to play"

Overall / unofficial results would show how they stack up against 6 shot 'major' revos.

Maybe they make revo-8 a 'category' or a sub-Division, or put them in with the 6-guns.

Its a chicken and egg issue, they are going to have to show up first, in significant numbers, to get anything changed.

I doubt USPSA is going to make changes to see if they show up.

BTW, didnt JM shoot Production Natl's with an 8 shooter a couple of years ago?

That has been my point for the last 5 years this conversation has been going on. If you want to make a change, show up and shoot and if there are numbers the powers that be will address it. The only effort I have seen so far is guys posting from behind their computers. If you want a change, show up and be counted.. "Talk is cheap and it takes money to buy whiskey," to quote Dave Moss.

Jerry did shoot production nats a few years back. He thought it would be good practice for the Revo match the second half of the week. They don't change the stages much from match to match.

I think many do show up and shoot the revolvers. Some shoot 625's as do I and are counted. Others shoot L10 with the 8 shooters and go completely unnoticed as being a revolver shooter. I feel those guys oughta be counted as revolver shooters and those I spoke to said they would, and more often, shoot uspsa revolver division if the gun they want to shoot were legal and competitive.

They are willing to shoot uncompetitively in L10 just to shoot the 8 shooter. There are many more of them that might also. I'm just saying we oughta find out by giving them the chance.

[B_Seehawer]

So why are we trying to revive a dead division? Revolver made sense 20 years ago, not so much now......

Why else would the undisputed champion of our sport switch from one of the most popular and visible divisions to the least popular and visible division.

To the naked eye, it almost sounds like 3-4 guys in this convo here are trying to save an entire division....

Just playing "Devils advocate" here. I really don't give a hoot what division you guys "wanna" shoot....

[cliffwalsh]

Right. Give them a chance in a provisional category in L-10 or production. They will be recognized as high revo in the division and be counted. If there are enough, there will be a production or L-10 revo national champion.

We are now able to count participation, we haven't completely killed a division as we know it , and if the number warrant it, we can make changes. We will have actual data; not just talk.

This seems like the obvious choice to me.

[Cd662]

For the people that keep suggesting Open Revolver, we see this all the time. We can suggest random splinter divisions that have 1 person in them until the cows come home. Since this isn't IDPA, it's not a new source for plaque collecting, so it does nothing. There's always going to be a rift between social shooters and "competitive" shooters and similarly between "fun" gear and "serious" gear. I was planning on asking my friend if I can use his 8 inch Smith and Wesson something whatever chambered in 44 magnum with an 8 inch barrel some time for ICORE. I know it's not competitive and I don't care, because I accept the "fun" portion. I've been shooting USPSA with either a 4 or 6 inch K-Frame, shooting minor with speedloaders. I accept that it's not competitive gear. It's my choice, USPSA isn't my main focus and I don't want to buy a 625 or 610 right this instance. I also don't want to destroy K frames with a steady diet of magnum loads and even if the gun could take infinite magnum loads, I don't feel like abusing my hands that much. This whole discussion is leaning towards the "competitive" nature of where things can go. I think we need to acknowledge that. Some people are talking about how this could affect people at the top, and some people are talking about how to draw in people on the entry level. We have two arguments:

1. The change will draw in more revolver shooters (part of the larger: How to increase Rev participation?)

2. The change will change the competitive nature of the division and allow individuals who currently are not interested in shooting the Rev division (from other USPSA divisions or other action pistol disciplines) to be competitive. The assumption is they will migrate.

Maybe I'm a purist and I'm used to revolvers being round guns that shoot six bullets. Are we barking up the right tree here though? Could poor participation in USPSA Rev be because of general perceptions of revolvers in general and, dare I say, because it's EXTREMELY DIFFICULT? I don't want to take anything away from shooters in other divisions. I am a mediocre Production shooter and I never tried shooting anything else. That having been said, if you give an average shooter a Production setup and a Revolver setup, I'm putting my money on the fact that he or she will do better with the Production setup. There is so much planning and such high risk values in revolver that it's frustrating. A few people mention that reloading in 8 shot arrays is annoying. You're right, it is, to some degree it takes the mind off actually shooting. That's why ICORE has the Limited Division. On the other hand, its part of the game.

I just feel like the people shooting revolver are already shooting revolvers. If they really want the trigger time, they shoot that 8 shot gun in Production and they aren't competitive but they don't care because it's training for something else. I'm willing to try it, but I just don't see this opening up the window of opportunity for people crowded at the games to shoot USPSA Revolver. At best, there will be some ICORE trickle down effect (I made the argument earlier why I don't think there will be significant IDPA migration). At worse, this will make a lot of people's expensive setups obsolete.

[cliffwalsh]

Well said.

[TGO]

Right. Give them a chance in a provisional category in L-10 or production. They will be recognized as high revo in the division and be counted. If there are enough, there will be a production or L-10 revo national champion.

We are now able to count participation, we haven't completely killed a division as we know it , and if the number warrant it, we can make changes. We will have actual data; not just talk.

This seems like the obvious choice to me.

I think the point is they don't wanna shoot them in another division they are not competitive in. They wanna shoot it in revolver. I agree we should try it as a provisional, but it should be in revolver division.

We are working on a match to do just this in a couple weeks. Be interesting how many show up to shoot the 6 major compared to those that show up to shoot 8 minor. There will be more in minor for sure as most shooting major will shoot both, but many have already stated they are only gonna show up and shoot the minor portion.

This was originally devised just to test out the Major6 v minor 8 thing. Will let all know the results.

[cliffwalsh]

There will not ever be an open revo division. That is a fact. We do not need more divisions.

I would be for putting in a revo category in open and if there were enough shooters at an Area, Sectional, or Nationals they would be recognized.

If not, then it didn't cost anything to the match.

I think Area 2 would have a big turnout.

[Neomet]

Here is the only problem with running outlaw matchs that I can see. You will certainly test the waters to see how many folks who already own a 627 will come out and play. What you won't get however are guys like me who would consider shooting revo with a minor/8 shot but have no inclination to buy an entire setup for what could well turn out to be a nobel experiment and nothing more, leaving me with equipment that is not competitive in any USPSA division.

For you, what about a simple 6-shot, minor-only, speedloader-only category with prizes?

Funny you should use that as an option. When I have shot revo, including Mike's inaugural Revo/SS match in Iowa quite a few years ago (Had a ton of fun Mike), I shot minor with my 686 with speedloaders. Prizes are not a real motivation for me. Just never have been. The allure of the 8 shot to me is to reduce the standing reloads which I do not like, and to be able to shoot minor competitively. Last time I shot a 625 it just was not a pleasant experience for my old hands.

[cliffwalsh]

Right. Give them a chance in a provisional category in L-10 or production. They will be recognized as high revo in the division and be counted. If there are enough, there will be a production or L-10 revo national champion.

We are now able to count participation, we haven't completely killed a division as we know it , and if the number warrant it, we can make changes. We will have actual data; not just talk.

This seems like the obvious choice to me.

I think the point is they don't wanna shoot them in another division they are not competitive in. They wanna shoot it in revolver. I agree we should try it as a provisional, but it should be in revolver division.

The would be competitive amongst themselves. If there are enough to warrant changing Revolver division into something new, there should be enough competition in the category. They would be shooting to be Production or L-10 revolver champion. If there is not enough competition, shouldn't that tell us something.