Kaboom with tight group

[Reshoot]

I have not shot lead with TG but I have shot 4.8 loads in a G35 with KKM barrel with no issues BUT I did find TG to be a bit fiddly to get set up the first time. It flows very freely and is small volume (compared to N320) so it requires a lot of checking on the scale when switching from a different powder.

A few questions:

1. Did you scale the throws before the first load?

2. Had you used that lead bullet with another powder?

3. If yes to #2 then how did your OAL get changed?

4. 1.118 is a bit short. Heck even 1.120 is a bit short. I load to 1.135.

5. Have you pulled the bullets from any other rounds you loaded in the same batch? If so what was the scaled charge? What did the crimp look like?

From what I can see from the posts it looks to me like too many things changed at one time and more checks needed at each step. As I am new to reloading I take care to triple check and only make 1 change at a time.

I'll add one more to that

6. Firing higher pressure rounds out of guns with unsupported chambers.

To the OP. Welcome to the world of unsupported chambers. If you want to shoot major loads, you need to look at slower powders, especially since you cannot load long.

I personally find WST to be more of a go-to than TG. Works in 9, 40, or 45 with lead or jacketed rounds, major or minor.

WST is definately a popular 40 caliber propellent. I have tested several, myself, and settled on WSF.

I believe we sometimes fail to recognize the fact that what works well in one particular firearm may preform quite differently in another. For example; the same load shot in my two XDm's will result in an average muzzle velocity of 948 fps in one and 995 fps in the other. What happens if I swap the 4.5" factory barrel out for a 5" stainless barrel? In my case a drop of 5 fps. Boy, that was not what I was expecting! Now, what effect does all this have on C.U.P.? We layman have no way of measuring that.

What I am trying to say here , in my humble opinion, one must carefully develop a load for each individual firearm. Just because someone posts a recipe for the same gun you have does not mean you will get the same results.

[GForceLizard]

Very true. My Glock 24 likes Berry's bullets. My STI 40 shoots crappy with Berry's bullets. And the same thing happens with powders. I tested several powders and Titegroup with 180gr Zeros works best for me in my STI. YMMV

[pjb45]

When I changed powder setting I measure my powder in groups of 10.

1. Fill three - five pieces of brass and dump the powder back into the hopper

2. Load a case ten times and dump the powder each time into my scale powder holder

3. Move the decimal point over to get an average weight

4. Repeat process #2 and 3 again.

5. If there is a variation of more than a .02=/- I repeat again.

[FightFireJay]

Here's something for everyone to think about: I searched the Brian Enos archives using only the word kaboom. Now, that search turned up more than just guns (or bullets) blowing up, like primers going kaboom in a press and so on. But, between 2007 and today I found 7 references to the subject at hand.

5 of those "kabooms" involved Tightgroup powder

1 happened with Clays

1 occurred using N320

From your extensive research... what gun were they using?

I don't this shows ANYTHING that we can take away... In .40S&W TiteGroup is much more popular than Clays or n320. Therefore we will see more kaBooms with TG. Likewise, there are many more Glock .40 S&W than probably any other brand, so of course we will see more Glocks kaBoom.

It's like saying a Hyosung motorcycle less likely to have an accident because I have never seen one in an accident. I've seen Harley's, Suzukis, Hondas, etc crash... But never a Hyosung crash. But I've only seen 2 Hyosungs EVER! Lol

[Carmoney]

These stories nearly always have the phrase "Dillon 550" in the first sentence. I am not a believer in using progressive machines that do not auto-index.

[Cy Soto]

These stories nearly always have the phrase "Dillon 550" in the first sentence. I am not a believer in using progressive machines that do not auto-index.

I hate to admit it (since I have a couple of 550's) but I can certainly see how forgetting to index the shellplate can produce some undesirable results.

[Reshoot]

Here's something for everyone to think about: I searched the Brian Enos archives using only the word kaboom. Now, that search turned up more than just guns (or bullets) blowing up, like primers going kaboom in a press and so on. But, between 2007 and today I found 7 references to the subject at hand.

5 of those "kabooms" involved Tightgroup powder

1 happened with Clays

1 occurred using N320

From your extensive research... what gun were they using?

I don't this shows ANYTHING that we can take away... In .40S&W TiteGroup is much more popular than Clays or n320. Therefore we will see more kaBooms with TG. Likewise, there are many more Glock .40 S&W than probably any other brand, so of course we will see more Glocks kaBoom.

It's like saying a Hyosung motorcycle less likely to have an accident because I have never seen one in an accident. I've seen Harley's, Suzukis, Hondas, etc crash... But never a Hyosung crash. But I've only seen 2 Hyosungs EVER! Lol

You are absoutely right . . . now everyone is happy

Wait a minute! Shot a match on Sunday with not a single Glock shooter in my squad, and only 1 out of the 10 using Tightgroup. Oh wait, all Glock's squad together and "most" Tightgroup shooters as well . . . that has to be it!

You can draw more than one conclusion from most data. However, my conclusion is the only correct one

[jmorris]

The conclusion that I draw from it, is that anyone using a powder that does not completely fill the case at a max charge can blow up a gun if they don't pay attention (or have a device to pay attention for them) to what charge has been dropped.

I guess that isn't fool proof. If you pay as little attention to shooting as you do loading, you could load a squib, lodge the bullet in the barrel then fire a properly loaded round. Guess its better to pay attention or buy factory ammo.

Edited September 18, 2012 by jmorris

[RePete]

Things that go boom:

- OAL too long for the chamber. Bullet touches rifling. Pressure goes up.

- OAL too short. Pressure goes up.

- OAL fine, but bullet gets set back in case...OAL ends up too short, pressure goes up.

- Double charge (generic term, doesn't have to truly mean x2)

- Gun fires out of battery. (go back to stock springs)

- Weak brass (yes, some factory brass is weak)

- After market barrel that still needs the chamber properly cut, but the owner is unaware of this fact.

- ...

Yes, it is soooo easy to exceed safe pressures, in 40 caliber guns, with fast powders like Tightgroup. I have never understood why shooters use the stuff?? There are so many excellent (and slower) powders available.

It works

Its cheap

Its accurate

It meters well

Its easy found

I like the feel

It works

Its cheap

Its accurate

It meters well

Its easy found

I like the feel

Need we say more?! :Thumbs_Up:

What they said.

My major load is 4.6gr and my minor load is 3.6gr. Never had an oops with this powder.

TG has become my powder for .40, 45 ACP, 38 Special, but for 9mm I like Unique.

[Glockman1000]

TBH, we don't know too much about the OP's gun, or it's condition prior to the kaboom. For all we know there could have been an obstruction in the barrel that caused a dangerous condition. Leaded bore, etc. I think there's more speculation that information.

The OP mentioned a wolf barrel which I assume to be a Lone Wolf barrel. I had one that didn't like lead bullets since the chamber was really tight. Jacketed was really snug & would drop in but lead would just not plunk in the chamber without being pushed in there even with a heavy crimp. I was concerned about an out of battery fire so I had it reamed out with a Clymer reamer & it would chamber fine after that. There was quite a bit of material removed from the barrel.

[Merlin Orr]

Nothing is idiot proof. Not a powder or a press or any combination thereof....(it's all on you)

Pay attention to what you are doing and you minimize the chance of accidents and mistakes but there is nothing foolproof.

My thoughts - If/When you make a mistake - analyze what went wrong and try to figure out where your plan/actions can be rethought/revised to help prevent a repeat of the mistake.

[eric nielsen]

Titegroup is probably the #1 powder used in Limited division in the US, I don't think 4.8 grains by itself is a problem. I've shot many 1000s of rounds thru my Glock 35 using Titegroup.

The lead bullet seated to 1.180" has a number of possible problems. If you chamber-check those you'd likely find the lead is digging into the barrel rifling & the round needs a shove to get all the way chambered. That raises chamber pressure by a big margin. I normally seat every 40cal bullet to 1.125 (and recheck w/a full shell-plate) but you can go to 1.135 with most jacketed bullets in a Glock if you like.

Another possibility is bullet seats on rifling, case never headspaces, slide never closes all the way, and gun fires out of battery. 8-10 years ago in many posts this was considered the most common event in KB's (search "glock kaboom" and "glock KB").

I've been trying out 2 different coated bullets - Black Bullet International which is molybdenum (I think) sized .401 to .4015, and Bayou Bullets which is heat-treated green paint coating sized .400. The Bayou Bullets drop in & out of the chamber with ease, the Black Bullets almost never drop in cleanly, even when seated 1.150. One of those is much more accurate and much less violent to shoot, you can probably guess which. Both of them smoke too much with Titegroup, a separate issue from the original post, so I'm using N320.

Edited September 18, 2012 by eric nielsen

[FightFireJay]

You are absoutely right . . . now everyone is happy

Wait a minute! Shot a match on Sunday with not a single Glock shooter in my squad, and only 1 out of the 10 using Tightgroup. Oh wait, all Glock's squad together and "most" Tightgroup shooters as well . . . that has to be it!

You can draw more than one conclusion from most data. However, my conclusion is the only correct one

Touché, my friend. But MY anecdotal data is better than your anecdotal data, lol

Upon a more serious note, ALL of this is anecdotal (as life tends to be) and we are forced to extrapolate, to "draw our own conclusions. If this were scientific data, with all variables controlled, then conclusions would be obvious and correct.

[steel1212]

These stories nearly always have the phrase "Dillon 550" in the first sentence. I am not a believer in using progressive machines that do not auto-index.

I hate to admit it (since I have a couple of 550's) but I can certainly see how forgetting to index the shellplate can produce some undesirable results.

I've used 550 for years. I've had one squib, granted it cost me a zero stage at Ohio sectional but I don't blame the machine I blame my lack of focus. Like others have said its all on the user....PERIOD. The machine just does what you tell it to do.

[ben b.]

Solo100 fills the case pretty well. Have to put up with the lot variance, which is the only real problem.

[Flexmoney]

These stories nearly always have the phrase "Dillon 550" in the first sentence. I am not a believer in using progressive machines that do not auto-index.

True.

[Religious Shooter]

The OP used tight group. Not Titegroup or tightgroup. Tight group.

[EkuJustice]

If your paying attention the auto index is not needed. I look in every case before I insert a bullet to make sure there is Powder in the case and that the powder charge is to the appropriate level in the case. I then place my bullet and start over again.

[GrumpyOne]

I think everyone might be missing the point a bit. It really doesn't matter what powder he was using, or what press he was using.... It comes down to poor reloading practices, and unless those are changed, it will happen again. TG is no more dangerous than any other powder,if its given its due respect.

[ben b.]

Heck, if you're paying attention most safety procedures and features are not needed. Ask meat cutters or carpenters.

I've seen more than a few squibs from folks who load on turrets or single stages who are claiming "I look at each case with my own eyes to verify blah blah blah". I believe them but...Oopsies happen.

[Sarge]

The OP used tight group. Not Titegroup or tightgroup. Tight group.

[FightFireJay]

The OP used tight group. Not Titegroup or tightgroup. Tight group.

Sometimes I use a little Titegroup...

Sometimes I use a lot of Titegroup...

But I always use "Titegroup"!

[Solvability]

I bet a nickel you had more than 4.8g of TG in there.

[Powder Finger]

I bet a nickel you had more than 4.8g of TG in there.

+1 but..........

I raise you .1 cents

[PC Geek Shooter]

Heck, if you're paying attention most safety procedures and features are not needed. Ask meat cutters or carpenters.

I've seen more than a few squibs from folks who load on turrets or single stages who are claiming "I look at each case with my own eyes to verify blah blah blah". I believe them but...Oopsies happen.

Since I wanted a bullet feeder and I know I really, really wanted that RCBS Lock-Out Die, my only option was a 5 station press. Glad I got the 650, since the Lock-Out Die was my main consideration. I'm still planning on looking at the case each time, but I know there's going to be a time when I don't and then at least the Lock-Out Die will be there to hopefully save me. Of course to do that it has to work correctly and I had to set it up correctly.

However with using Titegroup or other fast powders you still run a risk of using x more grains and still could get a KB if you are already in the high end of the spectrum to begin with. Luckily I won't be in the high end ever, however I plan on going very low (under minor PF), so a squib would be my main concern if I miss a case and the Lock-Out Die fails. Would be nice if they could eventually come out with a micrometered type Lock-Out Die, like within .2 or .3 grains under and above. Haven't fully tested or read how low or high the Lock-Out Die is set to.