Electronic scoring

[ktm300]

To me, the palms and nooks are more work for the shooters but a lot less work for that one guy that has to take all the hand written score sheets and decifer the chicken scratch after the match.

They also try to solve the issues of not scoring a target or not recording a time that somehow get resolved a day later when the person keying in the scores has to make a choice of guessing about hits or time. Do you zero the guy out for the stage when a time is missing? Do you just count the missed targets as NPM or add hits that are not written down.

They will bring their own issues along for the ride but it sure is nice to have the match scored 15 minutes after the last shot fired. For the guy that keyed in the scores it is sure nice not to spend several hours trying to get it keyed in.

What do you think about it?

[Nik Habicht]

If there are missing times, and the match is already over, the stage or stages will be scored a zero -- in practical terms that means flipping the flag to "did not fire" in EZW.

As far as missing targets or steel goes, hits/misses/penalties recorded are deemed as definite -- so any missing hits would need to be entered as NPM. See 9.7.4 to 9.7.6 in the rule book. 9.7.6 has most of these answers, the other two sections provide some background/remedies if the match is ongoing.....

[euxx]

Nik, you also forgot to say that it is responsibility of the shooter to make sure his time and all scores recorded completely. But neither of the rules you mentioned really help competitor scored zero on some stage who trusted an RO and didn't check the scores himself... and neither that actually answers the question OP asked.

[MoNsTeR]

They are MUCH less work for EVERYONE.

When a few clubs in ECO started using Palm scoring, I was a skeptic. I resisted learning how to do the Palm scoring for a long time. But when I finally broke down and learned it I was an instant convert. Today zero clubs in the section (AFAIK) run paper scoring.

Pros:

• impossible to enter the wrong number of hits
  
• impossible to save a score with no time
  
• no problems arising from illegible handwriting
  
• re-shoots don't require scrounging a fresh score sheet
  
• match scoring is often done before the props are even put away
  

Cons:

• people need to spend a little time (<1hr) learning how to run the gizmo
  
• possible for someone's score to not be saved due to user error (this happened to me last month)
  
• not rain-friendly (but what is?)
  
• requires a computer at the range for sign-up and someone who knows how everything works
  
• Palms need some maintenance, and do eventually wear out
  

On net, electronic scoring is a huge win.

[mike l m]

There are some clubs that use the palm and nooks for scoring, which is fine, but the scorcekeeper is in a rush. Scores the targets as the shooter is still shooting the cof. Then as Range is Clear is called the targets are taped before the shooter can see all the hits. I know when you get 10-12 people in a squad, and you want to run thru quickly (South Texas Summers are HOT). But I feel that the shooter needs to see the targets and hits or misses, penatlies, before it is taped. At least let the shooter say, go ahead and tape or I would like to see the hits.

Thanks,

Mike

[h4444]

The club I've been shooting at uses Practiscore, it seems to work great and you get the results almost instantly.

[Thomas H]

There are some clubs that use the palm and nooks for scoring, which is fine, but the scorcekeeper is in a rush. Scores the targets as the shooter is still shooting the cof. Then as Range is Clear is called the targets are taped before the shooter can see all the hits. I know when you get 10-12 people in a squad, and you want to run thru quickly (South Texas Summers are HOT). But I feel that the shooter needs to see the targets and hits or misses, penatlies, before it is taped. At least let the shooter say, go ahead and tape or I would like to see the hits.

Thanks,

Mike

That really is a separate issue, though. Our club, for example, uses Palm scoring, and we love it---and we DON'T score in a rush. We score just like everyone else does, after the course of fire is finished, and when the shooter can observe the scoring process.

We've used electronic scoring at our Sectional and Area matches for the last several years, and think it is great. One plus for it that people haven't mentioned yet how easy it is to upload in-progress results each day during big matches. Yes, paper scoresheet matches can do the same---but it is certainly easier to do it with electronic scoring.

Electronic scoring takes more prep work---extra batteries, screen protectors, extra Palms for the occasional electronic death, heating pads for winter scoring ---but we love 'em. Always good to post the match scores immediately after tear-down is complete, withOUT making any of the match staff shoot through (or even worse, not shoot at all).

[AzYooper]

I used Practiscore at Area 1 and I was the RO that did most of the electronic entry. It was fast and would catch me if I had a bad entry so I was really happy with the system. Sometimes the shooters in a squad were competing against each other and would ask to see the stage hit factors after they had shot a stage to see how they were doing against each other.

We did have one time in the afternoon when a battery was getting below 25% or so and the iPod froze during scoring. since the shooters follow behind taping we we could not determine the first couple of target scores and had to issue a reshoot. This was our only problem during a very large match. I learned to add the backup battery earlier and we had no problems after that.

[EEH]

OK--you score a match on practi score,shooter leaves the match,not DQ,just quit,,got sick,,ran out of ammo,,for whatever reason. can you enter DNF ?? I can't find it.how do you score him for rest of the match ??

[mjohn]

With the Palm, don't forget about the heat factor. The battery drains much faster as the heat increases. Also, in the cold the Palm is very slow.

[bbbean]

OK--you score a match on practi score,shooter leaves the match,not DQ,just quit,,got sick,,ran out of ammo,,for whatever reason. can you enter DNF ?? I can't find it.how do you score him for rest of the match ??

The same way you'd score him on paper if he left mid-match.

[Alan Meek]

OK--you score a match on practi score,shooter leaves the match,not DQ,just quit,,got sick,,ran out of ammo,,for whatever reason. can you enter DNF ?? I can't find it.how do you score him for rest of the match ??

Latest version of Practiscore has a DNF button

[EEH]

Thank you,,

[sperman]

I think electronic scoring for a L1 match is a no brainer. Scores are done as soon as the match is over, and no one has to spend the day sitting in a stats shack typing in scores.

I'm not sold that it is a good idea at L2 or higher matches. The shooter doesn't get a carbon duplicate of his score sheet. Instead of having a few guys in the stats shack entering scores all day long, you've transferred that load to the RO's on the stage. (This may or may not be an issue, depending on how well the match is staffed.) Yes, the updates get put out a little quicker, but is that really a big deal for a match that lasts 2 or more days?

[ROY NEAL]

Practiscore using Nooks is the only way to go for our club. We were the first club in Michigan to start using them and everyone is starting to switch over to them after seeing ours in action. We run a large level I match (over 80 shooters)j with 8-9 stages and 200+ rounds. The scoresheets used to be a mess as half the scoresheets had stage 1 on the front of the score sheet and stage 2 was on the back, the totals were never added up or if they did, it wasn't added up correctly. Don't even ask about trying to read some people's handwriting......the problems went on and on.Then you add in the time factor for 1 or 2 people doing all the paperwork and keying it in to EZWinscore. It was a nightmare. Scoring for last month's match took 4 minutes from the last shot fired and competitors were told the results as they were tearing down the last stages as we put equipment away.

Now this was after we had a 50 minute delay at the start of the match as we found a bug in version 1.6 as we upgraded two days before the match. Our scorekeepers (good thing they are IT tech guys) and one of our competitors (who is Indian and works as a contractor for HP....talk about stereotypes....but we still love Simar!!) figured out a solution and got us back up and running. Problem has now been resolved and we will continue to use this program and the nooks. Yes, there has been a little hesitation with some of the competitors about using electronic scoring (the typical "I don't know how to use it".....that should be called " I am too lazy to learn how and I don't want to" syndrome)but most of our shooters have seen the benefits and jumped in with both feet. Many of the competitors with Iphones/tabs/pads have also started to use the wireless capabilities and keep a running app on thier phone tracking themselves and other competitors during the match. If I could somehow convince the club that we "needed" a new big scoreboard, I would post the scores as they come in via the wireless route and rotate the stages and divisions as they were shot so everyone would know. Not really practical but something cool to think about. Especially for a big match.

So if your home club has not switched over to Practicscore and you have been thinking about it, feel free to get a hold of my two Guru's (Woof & Too Slow). They will walk you through the purchasing process/costs and benefits and set up. Once you start using it, you will wonder how you did without it.

[SLM]

I shoot Roy's match every month and really like the electronic scoring. It's awesome knowing where you finished before leaving.

With that said I saw something over the summer that turned me off of them for major match scoring. At Area 5 a competitor had to reshoot a hideous memory stage when the batteries died in whatever device they were using right as they finished scoring the stage. Pens may run out of ink but you don't lose the score.

If they constantly synced so that never happens I'd be more in favor of using them at a major but until then I think they are for local matchs only.

Had it been my score that was lost due to a dead battery on that stage I'd have been... um, irritated to put it mildly.

[bbbean]

I shoot Roy's match every month and really like the electronic scoring. It's awesome knowing where you finished before leaving.

With that said I saw something over the summer that turned me off of them for major match scoring. At Area 5 a competitor had to reshoot a hideous memory stage when the batteries died in whatever device they were using right as they finished scoring the stage. Pens may run out of ink but you don't lose the score.

If they constantly synced so that never happens I'd be more in favor of using them at a major but until then I think they are for local matchs only.

Had it been my score that was lost due to a dead battery on that stage I'd have been... um, irritated to put it mildly.

That is a problem, but it's one that easily avoidable if the match staff takes the time to monitor battery condition and backup/sync regularly.

Of course, there are lots of things that can go wrong and require a reshoot. At Area 5 the year before, someone from another squad decided to "help" and pasted a target of mine before it was scored. The reshoot took me from a 20 second run with 90% alphas to a 30 second run with a mike and 4 deltas. No scoring system is perfect.

BB

[aztecdriver]

I shoot Roy's match every month and really like the electronic scoring. It's awesome knowing where you finished before leaving.

With that said I saw something over the summer that turned me off of them for major match scoring. At Area 5 a competitor had to reshoot a hideous memory stage when the batteries died in whatever device they were using right as they finished scoring the stage. Pens may run out of ink but you don't lose the score.

If they constantly synced so that never happens I'd be more in favor of using them at a major but until then I think they are for local matchs only.

Had it been my score that was lost due to a dead battery on that stage I'd have been... um, irritated to put it mildly.

(in bold) this isn't going to happen. If you lose a stage in the middle of scoring, it's gone. It will be an impossibility for a sync to happen every hit entered. Every handheld electronic device is going to have this issue. Dead Batteries on electronic devices for scoring is like running out of fuel in an airplane in flight.

There's a simple solution - and actually quite effective. Don't paste until "all scored". On a 32 round course, reset the steel and put 6 people out there ready to paste the target when all scores are entered. It's not going to slow anything down, and makes everyone work.

Electronic scoring is one of the critical parts to getting the sport more "followable". Being able to understand what a run on a particular course means for the neophyte will really help understanding - ever try to explain hit factor scoring to someone new?? Show them the stage results page and all of the sudden the lights go on.

Edited September 5, 2012 by aztecdriver

[CHA-LEE]

The only issue I have seen with the use of Practiscore at big matches is the use of iPhones or iPod's. Those things have very poor battery life when you are using them all day and every major match I have seen them used at battled the "Keeping them charged" issue.

This is where the use of an e-ink type of device like a Nook is WAY better than using an iPhone or iPod. The Nook batteries last about a MONTH on one charge and their screens are very easy to see in the day light. Not to mention that the Nook's are way cheaper than an iPhone or iPod. The only challenges you have with using a Nook is that you need a wireless network setup at the range to sync all of the scores to one device. That and getting them rooted so you can load Practiscore on them isn't for the faint of heart. You need some tech savvy shooters to be able to properly administer that stuff.

In the Eastern Colorado Section every single USPSA club uses Stagescore along with Palm Pilots. We got outdoor optimized screens for them and this helps maximize the battery life during the match. Since replacing the screens with outdoor ones we have not had any issues with palms running out of battery in the middle of the match. These palms have worked great for a few years now but the Palm Pilots are starting to get long in the tooth. Since Palm does not make palm pilots any more its a dead end technology.

My club is pioneering the switch over to Practiscore with the Nook Simple Touch. So far this new setup is looking like a solid replacement for our current Stagescore/Palm setup. Once we work out the process and details around making it work I am sure the rest of the Eastern Colorado Section clubs will follow our lead in making the switch.

[CHA-LEE]

I also want to add that the decision for a club to use electronic scoring should be made on the total quantity of shooters you get on a regular basis. If your club is only getting 20 - 30 shooters a match, you are probably better off using paper scoring. If your club gets 50+ shooters on a regular basis then using an electronic scoring solution makes sense.

[theycallmeingot]

i have been shooting at bbbean's club lately. It's the only club I've been to that uses electronic scoring, and I like it. I get the results while I'm eating, after the match. It sure beats waiting until Sunday or Monday to get results for a Saturday morning match.

After seeing the electronic scoring they use, me and my shooting buddies downloaded practiscore on our phones so we can track our own scores against each other throughout the course of a match. It was especially neat to use it at the Indiana Sectional, and Illinois Sectional. We all shoot differently, and it is instant feedback as to whether or not you had a "good" hit factor on that stage. Because simply being told your HF after you shoot is of no value, if you don't hear everyone else's.

[SLM]

I shoot Roy's match every month and really like the electronic scoring. It's awesome knowing where you finished before leaving.

With that said I saw something over the summer that turned me off of them for major match scoring. At Area 5 a competitor had to reshoot a hideous memory stage when the batteries died in whatever device they were using right as they finished scoring the stage. Pens may run out of ink but you don't lose the score.

If they constantly synced so that never happens I'd be more in favor of using them at a major but until then I think they are for local matches only.

Had it been my score that was lost due to a dead battery on that stage I'd have been... um, irritated to put it mildly.

(in bold) this isn't going to happen. If you lose a stage in the middle of scoring, it's gone. It will be an impossibility for a sync to happen every hit entered. Every handheld electronic device is going to have this issue. Dead Batteries on electronic devices for scoring is like running out of fuel in an airplane in flight.

There's a simple solution - and actually quite effective. Don't paste until "all scored". On a 32 round course, reset the steel and put 6 people out there ready to paste the target when all scores are entered. It's not going to slow anything down, and makes everyone work.

Electronic scoring is one of the critical parts to getting the sport more "followable". Being able to understand what a run on a particular course means for the neophyte will really help understanding - ever try to explain hit factor scoring to someone new?? Show them the stage results page and all of the sudden the lights go on.

That's my point, it was scored, the RO called scoring complete and the 8+ guys on the stage had it pasted in seconds. Was the scoring really complete? No. It wasn't saved yet. Believe me, I understand snot happens. A "helpful" shooter cost a good friend of mine a smoking run at nationals last year. The reshoot went worse than yours, way worse. I also know that constant sync is an impossibility. I guess I should have pointed out that that was a sarcastic comment. I 100% agree that batteries going dead just shouldn't happen but they do. Things get missed. It's just my opinion that this is one of those things that should not happen at a major match. Scores can get recorded wrong on paper, etc etc etc can go wrong but I think this is one thing that just shouldn't even be given a chance to go wrong at a major match. My .02

[Jim Norman]

The only item missing from the electronic scoring system is a cheap printer. We need a fast cheap printer. Then we can hand the shooter a copy of his scores. As it currently stands, we can make a hand written summary sheet for the competitor. I understand that this may be one of those "wish list items". Perhaps there is a way to instantly text the scores as entered to anyone on the range that is pre-registered? Enter hte score, accept the score, transmit and the shooter being scored gets an instant text to his smart phone of his score???

Not an IT guy, I just found the on-off switch on my computer recently, but this seems like it should be achievable.

[euxx]

That's my point, it was scored, the RO called scoring complete and the 8+ guys on the stage had it pasted in seconds. Was the scoring really complete? No. It wasn't saved yet.

I was standing next to RO when that happen and even RM said that ROs should have monitored the battery status and don't allow it run low. They had plenty of spare devices at the match... So, it is just a learning curve.

[Thomas H]

That's my point, it was scored, the RO called scoring complete and the 8+ guys on the stage had it pasted in seconds. Was the scoring really complete? No. It wasn't saved yet. Believe me, I understand snot happens. A "helpful" shooter cost a good friend of mine a smoking run at nationals last year. The reshoot went worse than yours, way worse. I also know that constant sync is an impossibility. I guess I should have pointed out that that was a sarcastic comment. I 100% agree that batteries going dead just shouldn't happen but they do. Things get missed. It's just my opinion that this is one of those things that should not happen at a major match. Scores can get recorded wrong on paper, etc etc etc can go wrong but I think this is one thing that just shouldn't even be given a chance to go wrong at a major match. My .02

Considering the number of issues with paper scoring (remember the comments about "can't read the writing" "not all targets scored" "time not entered" etc) I'm thinking that any scoring method is going to have issues.

I have yet to see anyone come up with an argument that electronic scoring has MORE issues than paper scoring. And there seem to be considerably less.

Plenty of paper scores give issues, most of which aren't noticed until they are at the stat shack. This makes it much more difficult to fix, if a fix includes a reshoot requirement.