Electronic scoring

[Skydiver]

I think that electronic scoring has two issues that I believe is wonderful way of winning arbitrations, one is there is no time stamp shown, and second is the reason for procedurals are not recorded.

Let's say I get dinged for a foot fault procedural. I go to appeal the procedural. All that is recorded on the electronic score sheet was 1 procedural. The rule states:

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing. The Range Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed, on the competitor's score sheet.

During my RO class it was mentioned that shooters have successfully won arbs simply because the RO failed to put in the time of day on the score sheet, what more if the reason for a procedural was not even written.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Skydiver

[Thomas H]

I think that electronic scoring has two issues that I believe is wonderful way of winning arbitrations, one is there is no time stamp shown, and second is the reason for procedurals are not recorded.

Let's say I get dinged for a foot fault procedural. I go to appeal the procedural. All that is recorded on the electronic score sheet was 1 procedural. The rule states:

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing. The Range Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed, on the competitor's score sheet.

During my RO class it was mentioned that shooters have successfully won arbs simply because the RO failed to put in the time of day on the score sheet, what more if the reason for a procedural was not even written.

Hm. Other people must run electronic scoring differently than what I've seen. Every time I've seen electronic scoring used, the competitor gets a paper copy of the summary of the hits/time/etc. As such, there is both a time stamp and a place for explaining procedurals on it. And since the RO keeps a copy of it...

...don't see the issue.

[MoNsTeR]

The only item missing from the electronic scoring system is a cheap printer. We need a fast cheap printer. Then we can hand the shooter a copy of his scores. As it currently stands, we can make a hand written summary sheet for the competitor. I understand that this may be one of those "wish list items". Perhaps there is a way to instantly text the scores as entered to anyone on the range that is pre-registered? Enter hte score, accept the score, transmit and the shooter being scored gets an instant text to his smart phone of his score???

Not an IT guy, I just found the on-off switch on my computer recently, but this seems like it should be achievable.

It's... tricky.

I would give up hope on ever seeing a printer the size and efficiency we would want for this, there's just not much market for it. If someone were really motivated though, you could design and build one! Think ribbons, not inkjets.

As for texting... The (relatively) inexpensive devices best suited to Practiscore do not have cell radios and can't send SMS messages directly. It would be possible to send an SMS via Google Voice, or via SMTP gateway, or just send an email, if you can get internet access at the range somehow. My job issued me a Verizon portable hotspot which works at most of the ranges around here, but not all of them. Plus you've got to pay for the service, they have a short wifi range, and it's another thing to keep charged.

If you had power at every berm you could have wifi access points at each one. You would need some kind of companion app for Practiscore that you would load on your phone to receive scores. Technically very doable, but logistically very challenging.

The best hope is probably NFC (Near-Field Communication). With NFC you can communicate between devices just by touching them together. Then you would just need a companion app as above and you could tap your phone together with the scorer's tablet, press a button and you get your score. NFC is only on a tiny handful of devices currently, but if it takes off it'll be on everything within a couple of years.

[defragster]

On stage electronic scoring is in large part devoid of paper - this is what SkyDiver is referring too.

We've all used EzWinScore the default electronic scoring at matches - but that is a paper based system with one sheet or duplicates on stage for major matches.

SkyDiver points out that a stage scored on a handheld electronic device doesn't offer the space and even the explicit hand written timestamp you get with paper.

On major matches there should be a shorthand summary sheet that could recreate a score - if the device lost one - but that would be a line or two per shooter on a sheet - not a full score sheet.

This is where the on stage printer could come in - but having used PractiScore - it still would not have a way to note 'foot fault' versus say 'FTE' for a procedural. Without that decalaration the arbitration would seem to go to the shooter on any question.

Edited September 7, 2012 by defragster

[Skydiver]

I think that electronic scoring has two issues that I believe is wonderful way of winning arbitrations, one is there is no time stamp shown, and second is the reason for procedurals are not recorded.

Let's say I get dinged for a foot fault procedural. I go to appeal the procedural. All that is recorded on the electronic score sheet was 1 procedural. The rule states:

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing. The Range Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed, on the competitor's score sheet.

During my RO class it was mentioned that shooters have successfully won arbs simply because the RO failed to put in the time of day on the score sheet, what more if the reason for a procedural was not even written.

Hm. Other people must run electronic scoring differently than what I've seen. Every time I've seen electronic scoring used, the competitor gets a paper copy of the summary of the hits/time/etc. As such, there is both a time stamp and a place for explaining procedurals on it. And since the RO keeps a copy of it...

...don't see the issue.

Rule 9.11.2 requires the paper hard copy for Level II and above. For level I, unless a club makes a conscious decision to do paper backups, will be pretty much hosed should an arb issue come up.

Since Feb, I've been getting my home club to do electronic scoring using volunteer devices. It's been well accepted, so much so that when we went with paper last month, people were clamoring for the electronic scoring. We're getting ready to by club owned devices. Ironically, the people who were the most skeptical are now the big proponents, while I, the proponent, still see holes like I listed above. Don't get me wrong. Electronic scoring has made my life much easier. I can actually enjoy the matches at my home club now.

One thing we learned early on was that people were fascinated by the devices and loved the instant feedback of seeing how the stand against other shooters. The other thing we learned was that unless you had a squad mom that was on the ball, people tended to skip the paper backups. They've grown to trust the system that much -- much to my chagrin. So far I've been lucky that the few times there was a missing score, there was a paper backup to look at, but it's also amazing that less than 25% were doing paper backups. So it's not only been luck, but amazing luck if you consider the odds!

[wgnoyes]

I think electronic scoring for a L1 match is a no brainer. Scores are done as soon as the match is over, and no one has to spend the day sitting in a stats shack typing in scores.

I'm not sold that it is a good idea at L2 or higher matches. The shooter doesn't get a carbon duplicate of his score sheet. Instead of having a few guys in the stats shack entering scores all day long, you've transferred that load to the RO's on the stage. (This may or may not be an issue, depending on how well the match is staffed.) Yes, the updates get put out a little quicker, but is that really a big deal for a match that lasts 2 or more days?

Actually, we're getting ready to run the GA State Championships today on PS, and the competitor DOES get a duplicate of his scoresheet. We printed 2-part NCR paper scoresheet "receipts" specifically for that purpose.

And if you get everybody used to the idea and presence of electronic scoring at lvl1 matches, and then at big matches you're back-leveling to paper ("I am attempting to construct a mnemonic circuit, using stone knives and bearskins!"), your shooters are all going to wonder "what the frak"?

But we'll see. Depending on how it goes, I may change my mind after the state match is over.

Edited September 7, 2012 by wgnoyes

[MoNsTeR]

Rule 9.11.2 requires the paper hard copy for Level II and above. For level I, unless a club makes a conscious decision to do paper backups, will be pretty much hosed should an arb issue come up.

...arbitrations at level 1 matches?

[Skydiver]

I've heard it happen before. The RM/MD wearing the RM's hat didn't agree with the shooter's appeal. I think that RM/MD, now wearing the MD's hat, did the right thing by following the rules and set up an arb committee. I didn't hear whether the shooter's appeal was upheld or denied, though.

I know that most people would go, "It's just a club match. Why ruin 3 other shooter's day by pulling them away from the match? Just let it be (and whine about it on BEnos for some Tuesday morning quarterbacking)." To me though, it showed amazing integrity on the part of the RM/MD to keep the two hats separate.

[theycallmeingot]

I've heard it happen before. The RM/MD wearing the RM's hat didn't agree with the shooter's appeal. I think that RM/MD, now wearing the MD's hat, did the right thing by following the rules and set up an arb committee. I didn't hear whether the shooter's appeal was upheld or denied, though.

I know that most people would go, "It's just a club match. Why ruin 3 other shooter's day by pulling them away from the match? Just let it be (and whine about it on BEnos for some Tuesday morning quarterbacking)." To me though, it showed amazing integrity on the part of the RM/MD to keep the two hats separate.

kudos to them.

i've been to club matches where it's like pulling teeth to call for a popper calibration. (i've never called for one, but have seen it done.)

some things are not strictly necessary for club matches. But there are plenty of people who shoot only club matches for a year or more before going to their first major, and they don't spend time on benos reading rules threads. Those people deserve to see how the rules SHOULD be followed in club matches, so they're not surprised and dumbfounded when they get to a major match, and wonder wtf a reshoot is.

[Sarge]

For those that don't see the disadvantages of going paperless.

This has all been said here:

You have to have IT savvy guys to run it.

You need wireless connectivity at the range.

You need a way to get results to shooters.

We don't even have cell phone service at our range.

I have seen a practiscore demo but I'm still of the paper generation I guess.

[CocoBolo]

For those that don't see the disadvantages of going paperless.

This has all been said here:

You have to have IT savvy guys to run it.

You need wireless connectivity at the range.

You need a way to get results to shooters.

We don't even have cell phone service at our range.

I have seen a practiscore demo but I'm still of the paper generation I guess.

Find a 5th grader they can do it. We have been using PractiScore at several local clubs. You can do all the scores at the range with nooks and a lap top then when some one gets back to civilizataion they can upload the scores to the club web site and if they don't have one then the Practiscore web site. It eliminates a lot of incomplete scores lost score sheets. Sores are ready 10 min after the last shot is fired. Paper is so 80's went out with Disco.

[Sarge]

I loves me some Disco!

[EkuJustice]

Practiscore is extremely easy to use and you dont really need an IT savy guy to run it. BGSL is using it and its much easier and faster than paper

[Skydiver]

Last month's PractiScore issues which required IT guys may have been partly my fault. I'd reported the issue where the iOS devices couldn't talk to the Android devices and was in near panic because we had our monthly match coming up in 3 days. Since we depended on volunteers with a mix of Android and iOS devices for our matches, it was imperative that they could talk to each other. I may have rushed Josh into coming up with a fix, that unfortunately was not fully test. It was that version that had the EZWS import issues which unfortunately didn't get any regression testing. Please grant the Nifty Bytes folk some leeway though. The intended use case of Practiscore is to do registration directly on the devices. It's only some of us hard headed clubs that insist on doing registration in EZWS and then exporting to the device.

It's Nook rooting that requires some IT savvy. If your club goes with other Android based devices with the Play store or iOS device with iTunes, all you need to know is enough to operate the device as well as get files into into it and out of it. Getting the files in and out can be as simple as email it to yourself or using Dropbox, or a bit more complicated using SD cards or File Manager type programs.

[wgnoyes]

For those that don't see the disadvantages of going paperless.

This has all been said here:

You have to have IT savvy guys to run it.

To run it on the stage? No, anyone with 5 minutes training can operating a ps tablet on a stage to score shooters. You need your IT folks in the stats office. (Yes, there's still a stats offfice in practiscore.) You also need them to run a multi-system lvl2 or higher paper match.

You need wireless connectivity at the range.

Agreed, you do. Get a wireless router.

You need a way to get results to shooters.

Same thing with a paper match. Either way, you upload to uspsa.org. You still print stage results for the 1 hour bitch and gripe at the end of the match. With practiscore, you have the added option of uploading to practiscore.com. We're doing this at the GA State Championship this weekend with our lead stats officer's cell phone hot spot, and results are getting updated several times a day.

We don't even have cell phone service at our range.

Understood. Then you do what everyone else does and wait until you get somewhere where you do have service. Then its a 1 minute exercise to upload to practiscore, and just upload to uspsa.org later at home.

I have seen a practiscore demo but I'm still of the paper generation I guess.

That's fine, too. Ezwinscore isn't going away any time soon!

[wgnoyes]

I think that electronic scoring has two issues that I believe is wonderful way of winning arbitrations, one is there is no time stamp shown, and second is the reason for procedurals are not recorded.

Let's say I get dinged for a foot fault procedural. I go to appeal the procedural. All that is recorded on the electronic score sheet was 1 procedural. The rule states:

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing. The Range Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed, on the competitor's score sheet.

During my RO class it was mentioned that shooters have successfully won arbs simply because the RO failed to put in the time of day on the score sheet, what more if the reason for a procedural was not even written.

Hm. Other people must run electronic scoring differently than what I've seen. Every time I've seen electronic scoring used, the competitor gets a paper copy of the summary of the hits/time/etc. As such, there is both a time stamp and a place for explaining procedurals on it. And since the RO keeps a copy of it...

...don't see the issue.

Well I will say now, having seen it in "action" at a lvl2 match yesterday and today (leaving for the range in a few minutes), the little fortune cookie paper receipts are a fuster cluck! I know you're trying to get away from paper, but my opinion you still need a 5x8 "scoresheet"-sized 2-part form for each shooter for each stage, identifiable by stage number. (Ieven if it's as simple as a place on the form that says "Stage _____" and the guy with the "clipboard" writes in the stage number. The form needs to mirror exactly the layout of the summary screen on PS to eliminate all confusion in transcribing, and you need a place to write penalty comments and have the shooter and the RO sign off on it with timestamp like a paper match.

[wgnoyes]

I think that electronic scoring has two issues that I believe is wonderful way of winning arbitrations, one is there is no time stamp shown, and second is the reason for procedurals are not recorded.

Let's say I get dinged for a foot fault procedural. I go to appeal the procedural. All that is recorded on the electronic score sheet was 1 procedural. The rule states:

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing. The Range Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed, on the competitor's score sheet.

During my RO class it was mentioned that shooters have successfully won arbs simply because the RO failed to put in the time of day on the score sheet, what more if the reason for a procedural was not even written.

Hm. Other people must run electronic scoring differently than what I've seen. Every time I've seen electronic scoring used, the competitor gets a paper copy of the summary of the hits/time/etc. As such, there is both a time stamp and a place for explaining procedurals on it. And since the RO keeps a copy of it...

...don't see the issue.

Well I will say now, having seen it in "action" at a lvl2 match yesterday and today (leaving for the range in a few minutes), the little fortune cookie paper receipts are a fuster cluck! I know you're trying to get away from paper, but my opinion you still need a 5x8 "scoresheet"-sized 2-part form for each shooter for each stage, identifiable by stage number. (Ieven if it's as simple as a place on the form that says "Stage _____" and the guy with the "clipboard" writes in the stage number. The form needs to mirror exactly the layout of the summary screen on PS to eliminate all confusion in transcribing, and you need a place to write penalty comments and have the shooter and the RO sign off on it with timestamp like a paper match.

(And yes, I know we all want small portable printers that can just print out the scoresheets on the stage. It just doesn't exist right now.)

Edited September 8, 2012 by wgnoyes

[Thomas H]

I think that electronic scoring has two issues that I believe is wonderful way of winning arbitrations, one is there is no time stamp shown, and second is the reason for procedurals are not recorded.

Hm. Other people must run electronic scoring differently than what I've seen. Every time I've seen electronic scoring used, the competitor gets a paper copy of the summary of the hits/time/etc. As such, there is both a time stamp and a place for explaining procedurals on it. And since the RO keeps a copy of it...

...don't see the issue.

Rule 9.11.2 requires the paper hard copy for Level II and above. For level I, unless a club makes a conscious decision to do paper backups, will be pretty much hosed should an arb issue come up.

Yep. But this really isn't hard to do. I started shooting at my home club in 2006, and they were using Palm scoring at that time---with paper summary backup for the shooter. We've been doing it the entire time I've been shooting there. We've used it for Sectional matches and Area matches, without issue.

I guess I'm still not understanding the issue.

[Thomas H]

Well I will say now, having seen it in "action" at a lvl2 match yesterday and today (leaving for the range in a few minutes), the little fortune cookie paper receipts are a fuster cluck! I know you're trying to get away from paper, but my opinion you still need a 5x8 "scoresheet"-sized 2-part form for each shooter for each stage, identifiable by stage number. (Ieven if it's as simple as a place on the form that says "Stage _____" and the guy with the "clipboard" writes in the stage number. The form needs to mirror exactly the layout of the summary screen on PS to eliminate all confusion in transcribing, and you need a place to write penalty comments and have the shooter and the RO sign off on it with timestamp like a paper match.

(And yes, I know we all want small portable printers that can just print out the scoresheets on the stage. It just doesn't exist right now.)

Hm. Our summary sheets are indeed more like summary "ribbons" (roughly 8.5" wide, 2" tall) but the layout IS exactly like the summary on our Palms. And it includes a "stage ___" section, along with room at the bottom and top for comments. Plus boxes for Shooter/RO/timestamp signoff.

Long ago we made a form for this, and each year have a couple of thousand made. (With carbon copy, too.) People saw this at Area 3---any problems with scores?

[Skydiver]

I think that electronic scoring has two issues that I believe is wonderful way of winning arbitrations, one is there is no time stamp shown, and second is the reason for procedurals are not recorded.

Hm. Other people must run electronic scoring differently than what I've seen. Every time I've seen electronic scoring used, the competitor gets a paper copy of the summary of the hits/time/etc. As such, there is both a time stamp and a place for explaining procedurals on it. And since the RO keeps a copy of it...

...don't see the issue.

Rule 9.11.2 requires the paper hard copy for Level II and above. For level I, unless a club makes a conscious decision to do paper backups, will be pretty much hosed should an arb issue come up.

Yep. But this really isn't hard to do. I started shooting at my home club in 2006, and they were using Palm scoring at that time---with paper summary backup for the shooter. We've been doing it the entire time I've been shooting there. We've used it for Sectional matches and Area matches, without issue.

I guess I'm still not understanding the issue.

Try going to a club that runs naked... eg. no paper backup. If you have to arb a procedural (or a DQ) the only "evidence" that needs to be preserved (as per 11.1.5) will be the electronic copy that says X number of procedurals (or a DQ flag). The "evidence" will lack the other pre-requisites required by the rulebook.

[MoNsTeR]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1953425088/mprinter-an-analog-printer-for-a-digital-world?ref=category

Maybe I was wrong about never seeing a palm-sized printer! Pricey, though.

[ktm300]

Well I will say now, having seen it in "action" at a lvl2 match yesterday and today (leaving for the range in a few minutes),

I worked the match and shot the match.

I loved using the system to score as I know the correct information was in the system totaled, all hits recorded, all columns added.

I loved having the results to see how I did on a stage 15 minutes after I shot it on my phone. Amazing!

the little fortune cookie paper receipts are a fuster cluck!

I could not agree more. The sheet was very nice for doing the shooting order but as a way to had the paper record of the scores it kind of sucks. I saw stages where they were not getting the shooter to sign the sheet.

I like your idea of a scoresheet set up the way the practiscore screen is set up. Just put a sticker on it, write down the stage #, time of day, and the scores etc. Then have the shooter initial the paper and give them a copy. Very clean way to do it.

(And yes, I know we all want small portable printers that can just print out the scoresheets on the stage. It just doesn't exist right now.)

All it takes is time and money. There are small wireless thermal printers like they use at Hertz when they check in your car, they just cost a lot and the paper is expensive. It is also another device to maintain and make sure you have supplies for.

[Thomas H]

Yep. But this really isn't hard to do. I started shooting at my home club in 2006, and they were using Palm scoring at that time---with paper summary backup for the shooter. We've been doing it the entire time I've been shooting there. We've used it for Sectional matches and Area matches, without issue.

I guess I'm still not understanding the issue.

Try going to a club that runs naked... eg. no paper backup. If you have to arb a procedural (or a DQ) the only "evidence" that needs to be preserved (as per 11.1.5) will be the electronic copy that says X number of procedurals (or a DQ flag). The "evidence" will lack the other pre-requisites required by the rulebook.

Okay, yeah, that would suck.

That seems to be to be a match director issue, not an electronic scoring issue, though---meaning that the MD should be running the match correctly with all needed items, instead of electronic scoring being the problem.

It would be interesting to have an electronic scoring program that had checkboxes for "type of procedural penalty" choices that would open up when a procedural was assessed...

[ktm300]

I know that on a couple of DQs the match director put the reason on the backup scoresheet and had the RO and competitor sign it. If there were a backup scoresheet like Bill suggested it would give a place to write down the reasons for the proceduals.

[wgnoyes]

I slammed this together in about 10 minutes yesterday morning while waiting for the master ipad to come back with more scores to sync. The order of boxes exactly matches the summary display in practiscore, which is important as you don't have to match box to box, which takes time. Also it became apparent with fortune cookie scoresheets that the shooters tended to believe they didn't have to wait around for their copy (which had to be manually cut apart with scissors), so the "clipboard" operator had to chase the guy down for his signature. Lot of people walked off without their receipts. With a more traditional "scoresheet" as shown here, that perception would be gone. Plus if it all went to hell and I really had to, I COULD score the match the old way in ezws with these.

practiscore stage summary scoresheet.pdf