Electronic scoring

[ktm300]

That would be simpler than using the sheets we had this weekend.

[glefos]

I would like to see the competitor click 'submit' on the scoring device and have the stage results immediately emailed to him/her. No paper to carry around and time stamped for arbitration purposes. Then have complete results sent after each squad rotatation.

[Skydiver]

I slammed this together in about 10 minutes yesterday morning while waiting for the master ipad to come back with more scores to sync. The order of boxes exactly matches the summary display in practiscore, which is important as you don't have to match box to box, which takes time. Also it became apparent with fortune cookie scoresheets that the shooters tended to believe they didn't have to wait around for their copy (which had to be manually cut apart with scissors), so the "clipboard" operator had to chase the guy down for his signature. Lot of people walked off without their receipts. With a more traditional "scoresheet" as shown here, that perception would be gone. Plus if it all went to hell and I really had to, I COULD score the match the old way in ezws with these.

practiscore stage summary scoresheet.pdf

Thanks! That look so much better than https://practiscore.com/images/4x5summaryscoresheet.pdf

[Skydiver]

I would like to see the competitor click 'submit' on the scoring device and have the stage results immediately emailed to him/her. No paper to carry around and time stamped for arbitration purposes. Then have complete results sent after each squad rotatation.

Some bits of your idea have merit!

Yes, it would be nice for ranges with WiFi and Internet access. I think that it will also put a serious battery drain on the devices as well with it constantly running the radio. But that battery drain has to be paid whether sending email via WiFi or printing WiFi.

For ranges without WiFi access, but have cellphone data service coverage, then that would force the device choices towards devices that require a data plan. I don't think this is a long term cost that a club wants to incur: N number of devices times $X per month data plan for devices that only get used once or twice a month.

Maybe Internet access is not required if a local WiFi hotspot is setup, and a local mail server is configured. Shooters for the match have their email address as USPSANUMBER@hightechmatch.net, and no password is required. Of course, the shooter now has to be tech savvy enough to know how to add such an account to their mobile device. For shooters without a USPSA number, it could be ShooterXX where XX is their shooter number, but they'll have to update their email account every time they go to new match.

Keep posting ideas about what you'd like the experience or result to be. I'm quite sure that Ken and others are monitoring threads like this and gathering ideas. The final implementation may not be exactly what you described, but it may have the same effect. Consider how in some ways Captain Kirk's communicator has become the flip open cellphone.

[sperman]

I took a snapsot of the "summary" page with my cellphone. To me, that was more accurate information than what was hand copied to the piece of paper. IMO, the only negative to using electronic scoring is the hand written paper backup.

[wgnoyes]

Some bits of your idea have merit!

Yes, it would be nice for ranges with WiFi and Internet access. I think that it will also put a serious battery drain on the devices as well with it constantly running the radio. But that battery drain has to be paid whether sending email via WiFi or printing WiFi.

It doesn't put a serious battery drain on nooks. They ran all day with wireless on all the time and at the end of the day, you still have 60% available.

For ranges without WiFi access, but have cellphone---

Stop right there. You don't need cellular if you don't have wifi; instead just get wifi. It's not asking much to just get a wireless router and a battery to plug it into and roam that stage to stage to pick up scores. You don't even have to stop the stage in progress, as we demonstrated at the Ga State. The master sync device can just wander around and pull scores from the stages without interrupting anything. Or run a wireless access point/repeater/whateveritscalled up the flagpole so that it overlooks everything and sync from anywhere.

Maybe Internet access is not required if a local WiFi hotspot is setup, and a local mail server is configured. Shooters for the match have their email address as USPSANUMBER@hightechmatch.net, and no password is required. Of course, the shooter now has to be tech savvy enough to know how to add such an account to their mobile device. For shooters without a USPSA number, it could be ShooterXX where XX is their shooter number, but they'll have to update their email account every time they go to new match.

Mail server? uspsa#@match.net?? Huh?!?? What do you need any of that for? You lost me there.

Keep posting ideas about what you'd like the experience or result to be. I'm quite sure that Ken and others are monitoring threads like this and gathering ideas. The final implementation may not be exactly what you described, but it may have the same effect. Consider how in some ways Captain Kirk's communicator has become the flip open cellphone.

Hehe. There's a story of William Shatner using a Motorola Razr flip phone in an airport and people recognized him and stopped to stare, and when he was done with his call, he closed the phone in the EXACT same way he would snap close a communicator prop in star trek, glanced around and saw everyone looking, recognized the irony, and laughed.

People, we've done this now. It works. You have to have your head screwed on straight, but it works. GA State Championship: 220 shooters, 9 stages, scoring finished 20 minutes after last shot fired, no issues that we didn't cause ourselves. You can do this if you want to. You just have to want to.

[wgnoyes]

I took a snapsot of the "summary" page with my cellphone. To me, that was more accurate information than what was hand copied to the piece of paper. IMO, the only negative to using electronic scoring is the hand written paper backup.

You know, with all of us running around with our own phones, why not?

[Skydiver]

RE: data service, mail serversglefos' idea was clicking "Submit" on Practiscore would automatically email that person's stage score to the person directly. This was in response to the need for paper backups. For the email idea to work, I was saying that either there has to be a way to actually get the email sent out to the Internet and to that person's email server, or the range would have to host its own email server. The with the appropriate tweaks to Practiscore, the app can sure email individual stage results the way it can email match data exports. The problem is that email will have to go somewhere. If the device is on a WiFi network and the network has Internet access, then yes no problem. But if the network has no Internet access, but there is a mail server running within the network, then it is like having the old late 80's early 90's LAN based email where everything was just local to the mail server.

RE: battery life

Yes, the new Nook NST's are amazing with battery and WiFi going. I have the first generation Nook. It lasts only a quarter as long with WiFi going, and the manual specifically recommends turning off WiFi. With my personal Nook NST, over the same number of hours reading each night, I've noticed less battery drain with WiFi off vs. WiFi on. With WiFi on, I needed to recharge about a week sooner than my usual 4 week run. But that is neither here nor there since PractiScore won't run on the first generation Nook, and for range use during my experiments, the difference in battery use for the NST was 70% vs 60% with the WiFi on vs. WiFi off.

On the other hand, over the past months while we've had various volunteer devices like iPhones, Droid X's, iPads, etc. Just as an informal survey, we'd asked folks about their battery levels at the end of the day as compared to their normal usage. Common response was that more battery drain, but that is nowhere close to a scientific study. We did manage to help things a little bit by getting a stronger WiFi access point/router that had better range coverage and the battery drain reports didn't seem to be as bad. e.g. We didn't have any reports of people having to swap devices because their battery was running low like we did in the previous months. We were ready to hoist the AP on mast if needed, but discovered we had good coverage from within the stats shack as long as we stuck it right beside the window facing the bays.

RE: Shatner

LOL! That's a great story!

[Skydiver]

People, we've done this now. It works. You have to have your head screwed on straight, but it works. GA State Championship: 220 shooters, 9 stages, scoring finished 20 minutes after last shot fired, no issues that we didn't cause ourselves. You can do this if you want to. You just have to want to.

This! I completely agree.

As I'd previously posted, some of the old skeptics when I first floated the idea at my club have become the biggest proponents for going electronic, and now I'm the one who sounds like a skeptic. I know that it's made my life doing stats infinitely easier. If feel like your club doesn't have expertise, ask around here. It's looking like there is a growing community here that wants to share the benefits of going electronic, as well a what are emerging "best practices" for getting the easiest use of the various components of the system.

[bthoefer]

I shot and RO'd at the GA state match. I have used the nooks before this at Cherokee and use Practiscore for 2 other matches weekly.

I was the RO when someone broke the 180, so I know how the DQ was recorded on the backup paper score sheets. This was not an issue nor was it an issue for proceduralls.

I don't see any issues other than batteries that don't have equivalent issues with paper scoring.

[BillChunn]

My wife and I were the scorekeepers for a club in Northwest Ohio when the only way to do it was on paper and EZ-WinScore. My bride spent the day sitting at the range, reviewing hundreds of scoresheets, adding totals and verifying that all the data was there. When something was missing, she would trudge out to the stage and raise hell with the RO. We then went home and spent several hours keying, printing, verifying and finally posting results. Needless to say, after one season she was tired of that job and notified me that "someone else" will be taking over the score checking duties.

Practiscore using Nooks is the only way to go for our club. We were the first club in Michigan to start using them and everyone is starting to switch over to them after seeing ours in action.

Roy and the guys from Raccoon Hunters were kind enough to loan their equipment to Detroit Sportsmens Congress (DSC) to score a match this summer as we wanted to verify that the Nooks would be a good replacement for the Palms we had been using for years. Several members were skeptical saying the screen washed out in the sun or turned black when it overheated or the equipment is too fragile or a multitude of other "don't want to learn anything new" excuses. At the match, the loaned equipment worked very well. Some members had downloaded PractiScore onto their phones or Ipads and the navigation on the Nook was a little bit different. All that was overcome by asking the guys from Raccoon a question or two. With their help and patient assistance (thanks Rob!!!) the match scoring was smooth as silk.

The DSC Board of Directors approved the Nook purchase and a wireless access point was donated so synchronization can be accomplished from every bay. We have used them for several matches and they work great! Any scoring errors are immediately caught and corrected when the information is available, right there on the stage.

Larger matches require the shooter sign a copy of their results. At the Michigan Sectional the scoring data had to be transferred from the Nook to 2-part paper. The shooter receiving their copy on a narrow strip. It worked but seemed to slow down the match as the scorekeeper was busy writing when the RO already had the next shooter on the line.

On longer stages such as the one at Raccoon Hunters on September 23rd that was a 25-30 second stage (for mortals, Roy ran it in 20-something) the scorekeeper started scoring targets while the competitor was still shooting! This sped up the time it took for a shooter to clear the stage but the drawback was that they didn't get to see their hits (unless there was a mike or No-Shoot). That was a good way to address what became a bottleneck in the match flow.

Overall, electronic scoring using PractiScore is a huge help to accurately score a match and prevent scorekeeper burnout.

Edited September 27, 2012 by BillChunn

[MarkCO]

I definatly think that electronic scoring is doable and beneficial. Every aspect of it is better than paper scoresheets except one.

On the local level, E-scoring only is the bomb as it saves a lot of work, and IMHO, reduces the amount of errors.

For USPSA majors, LII and above, a back-up paperscore is required, so that is the fly in the ointment. Now, we have to get an extra RO to transfer scores over the hardcopy or have competitors do it. If there is a discrepancy, the paper scoresheet (which has MORE potential for error) takes precedence. Having run 3 majors this year with this PITA, this needs to be addressed with the BOD to remove the requirement of back-up paper scores.

A method of system and device back-up could be crafted to eliminate the need for paper scoresheet use completely, then, IMHO, E-scoring will have arrived. Until then...great for local, extra burden for majors.

[Chris iliff]

Yep, until there is a way to do away with paper I'm still not a fan of electronic scoring. Last major I shot used palms and it was a slow tedious process on almost every stage.

I actually started thinking of Ohio State and all paper scoring and it was posted in like 30 minutes after last shot. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. So...... My reasoning was why burden every shooter with a system that's slower just to save one or two people paperwork? Are we out to please the "many" or just one or two? IMHO

The match, by the way, and all staff, we're excellent. I just thought it was very slow and probably went an extra hour or so.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Chris iliff

[wgnoyes]

I slammed this together in about 10 minutes yesterday morning while waiting for the master ipad to come back with more scores to sync. The order of boxes exactly matches the summary display in practiscore, which is important as you don't have to match box to box, which takes time. Also it became apparent with fortune cookie scoresheets that the shooters tended to believe they didn't have to wait around for their copy (which had to be manually cut apart with scissors), so the "clipboard" operator had to chase the guy down for his signature. Lot of people walked off without their receipts. With a more traditional "scoresheet" as shown here, that perception would be gone. Plus if it all went to hell and I really had to, I COULD score the match the old way in ezws with these.

practiscore stage summary scoresheet.pdf

I'm telling you; the fortune cookie slip of paper receipts are NOT the way to go for major matches, and I will STRONGLY recommend our own GA State Ch not use them next year. Rather, you need a traditional-sized "scoresheet" printed on NCR 2-part carbonless (just like we're all used to now) and laid out EXACTLY the same way as the score summary window in practiscore. Then it's a simple "no thought required" matter to record the shooter's performance, get him to sign it, give him his copy, and go on to the next guy.

[bbbean]

Yep, until there is a way to do away with paper I'm still not a fan of electronic scoring. Last major I shot used palms and it was a slow tedious process on almost every stage.

I actually started thinking of Ohio State and all paper scoring and it was posted in like 30 minutes after last shot. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. So...... My reasoning was why burden every shooter with a system that's slower just to save one or two people paperwork? Are we out to please the "many" or just one or two? IMHO

The match, by the way, and all staff, we're excellent. I just thought it was very slow and probably went an extra hour or so.

I've run stages at two level II matches this year. One used paper, one used palms. Our club transitioned from paper to electronic this year. From a shooter's perspective, the primary difference is that using Practiscore or Palm, the shooter walks away from the stage with a calculated HF, giving him a better idea where he stacks up against other shooters on the same stage.

From an administrative POV, there is no comparison. Electronic scoring may only make it easier for "one or two people", but those are a couple of pretty important people. I'm not aware of any matches that have a surplus of competent and experienced volunteers willing to do stats, and I sure haven't heard of any matches offering to pay scorekeepers. There's also the fact that with electronic scoring, errors are typically caught at the stage while the shooter, RO, and a squad full of witnesses are available to fix it. Errors on paper often aren't caught until after the match is over, shooters may or may not be available, and RO memories are less accurate (just try remembering the details of one run out of the 150 shooters you ran over 2 or 3 days).

Crux of the matter: In a few years, paper scoring will seem as antiquated as sending in classifiers by snail mail. It'll be something younger shooters get tired of hearing the geezers talk about.

BB

[a matt]

The LII matches that I have shot using nook and palms. I'm not sold . no copy of the stage hits,times nothing to do acomparison with. I like the way universal shooting academy does it. Copy go to me after I sign for it, and original go to the shack! Nooks are tons faster but when im shooting or right after I can't remember if I had two alphas or two Charlie. So I walk with them and I can see/ hear what is called out. With a nook they are done scoring when I unload and show clear. WTF. 1/2 day formats suck too. Rush rush. F rushing. If the match is in that much of a rush F them. I want to know I scored what I shot! That why we have an hour after posting but if I don't have anything to compair things to that's a waste too. We pay $100 plus on the match, spend more on motel and travel and get RUSHED. Ga. Fortune cookie crap sucked. They waited till the last stage to cut them up and pass em out. I got 5 of my 8 stages , who knows what my score was. I trust the state shack, it would be a mistake if something was mucked. But we all make mistakes. PERIOD.

Oh yea it only takes me 10 seconds to make ready. Rushing again.

Edited October 1, 2012 by a matt

[wgnoyes]

...

Crux of the matter: In a few years, paper scoring will seem as antiquated as sending in classifiers by snail mail. It'll be something younger shooters get tired of hearing the geezers talk about.

You'd be surprised: there are still a few clubs that mail it in!

[bbbean]

... So I walk with them and I can see/ hear what is called out. With a nook they are done scoring when I unload and show clear. WTF....

That has nothing to do with paper vs electronic. Personally, I prefer to score with the shooter by my side, but there's a reason the rules allow you to name a delegate to watch scoring in your absence. Note that that rule existed long before electronic scoring was an issue.

BB

[MarkCO]

I have heard back from the BOD that they are working on a solution to the duplication issue, and a few others. Anyway, they are on it, so I'll sit tight til remedied.

[a matt]

My delegate is on deck or in the hole. I don't show up with a grew I keep up with my scores. That's my job and I can't do it the way the matches that I have attended have run, scoring with the nook.

[Jim Norman]

Actually if I am correct, the standard is that the electronic score is the correct score and that if the handwritten courtesy sheet differs, that is the error, the score on the device stands.

The way I see it, soon we will have your scores online as they are entered. you will make your mark on the device and if you have bothered to download and install the competitor app on your device, you will have a copy of your scores instantly. No need to for a hand written copy. I say this becasue who thought a few short years ago that we'd have Nooks, let alone Nook Scoring or Palms or...

And just like paper, you, the shooter need to verify that you have your hits and that your score is entered under YOUR NAME. The good about the electronics is that there are no unscored targets and no zero time stages, no extra hits, no too few hits. As for the back ground people, i.e., Stats Dudes and Dudettes this relieves a heck of a lot of work. Yes there is work in advance, but with online registration and the new import feature on EzWin, that is reduced. And there is some after match work, but in total is is far less work than it was on paper. One ohter thing, no more trying to decide if that was a number and just what number it supposedly was.

I am just about ready to spring for Nooks out of my own pocket and pay them off over a year just becasue they will be better for us. Now if only someone would come up with a cheap printer that works quickly, we could have that paper slip directly printed out for each shooter while we await the next level.

[bbbean]

My delegate is on deck or in the hole. I don't show up with a grew I keep up with my scores. That's my job and I can't do it the way the matches that I have attended have run, scoring with the nook.

Again, that's not an electronic scoring issue. That's an issue with ROs scoring as you go. The issue plays the same with paper scoring. I don't run a stage that way, and wish other ROs wouldn't, but if they are scoring as you shoot, you're just going to have to recruit someone from your squad if you want to know what your hits were on individual targets.

BB

[a matt]

Damn it what's it take to get the last word? Your right I just had a thorn in my side and was venting. I'm sure it going to work out with the electric scoring and when does it will be mucho faster. Any time something new is coming out, its going to have growing pains. Imsure all the issues will be addressed. Heck we sign up for matches with out paper scoring the matches seems like a natural progression. But I still hate being rushed, by an RO.

Edited October 1, 2012 by a matt

[Babaganoosh]

You don't ever have to be rushed by a RO. Just take your time if need be. If you need an extra minute to ready up just let it be known. Find someone to walk with the score keeper. Then do the same for them. A lot of times in the matches I shoot we won't tape any targets that have miss so that you can see them.

Ro's aren't trying to rush you personally in my opinion. I think they just get caught up in moving the match along and sometimes lose sight of the small picture (shooters) sometimes. To them moving the match along is the big picture.

[a matt]

Good point.