Rule Info on Flawed Stage at Recent Match

[wreckshooter]

At a recent USPSA match we had a sort of questionable stage and I am not sure how scoring and the rules should have applied. Basically the stage was divided between a left and right lane of targets. In the right lane was a Classic Target behind a plastic barrel. From the starting area only the D zone was visible, but you could see the entire target if you proceeded down range in the shooting area. The barrel was not designated as a no-shoot and as the match progressed it was not taped. Some shooters, especially Open Shooters, began to 'game' the barrel by saving time by shooting the center of the barrel multiple times from the starting position hoping that some of their rounds would penetrate the barrel and hit the A-zone of the target behind the barrel. This allowed them to avoid the expenditure of time required to move downrange to where the A-zone was visible.

As I said before, the precedent had already been established that the barrel was not taped. The RO could sometimes determine when the barrel was hit based on sound and possibly the barrel moving when it was hit, but this is pretty difficult when a shooter fires four or more rounds rapidly.

1. Should the RO have considered the barrel to be hard cover like any other stage prop?

2. Should the barrel have been taped?

3. Since 1 and 2 did were not applied, could the RO have called 'mikes' on any shots the RO estimated had hit the barrel, either based on the sound of a round hitting the barrel, barrel movement due to individual shots, or even determining based on trajectory a target hit had to have passed through the barrel, based on hit location and where the shots were taken from?

Hindsight being 20/20, I would have added a no-shoot in front of the barrel, still leaving the D-zone visible from the starting area. Is this an appropriate adjustment, if done prior to the match?

[Poppa Bear]

Did the course design require the shooter to advance past that target to engage other targets? Or, could you take the target from there and not have to move down that lane at all?

1. Should the RO have considered the barrel to be hard cover like any other stage prop? ]YES, if it was not declared soft cover in the WSB

2. Should the barrel have been taped? YES, if it was not declared soft cover in the WSB

3. Since 1 and 2 did were not applied, could the RO have called 'mikes' on any shots the RO estimated had hit the barrel, either based on the sound of a round hitting the barrel, barrel movement due to individual shots, or even determining based on trajectory a target hit had to have passed through the barrel, based on hit location and where the shots were taken from? Cannot make the call on ESTIMATED hits. It is either there or it is not, no guessing allowed. Much depends on the answer to the above question.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Poppa Bear

[GrumpyOne]

Look at the rules. 4.1.4.1, 9.1.6, and since it was hardcover, it wasn't a legal stage anyway... See 4.2.5

Edited July 26, 2012 by GrumpyOne

[Poppa Bear]

Grumpy the target was fully visible if you advanced into the shooting area: From the starting area only the D zone was visible, but you could see the entire target if you proceeded down range in the shooting area.

The question becomes did you need to advance? Or, was this the only target hidden on that side, hence the gaming through the barrel? As the OP noted a NS in front of the barrel would have solved the problem if it was meant to be HC. If the barrel was meant to be SC and the designers intent was to see how many would try to take the target through the barrel rather than go around it, then it should have been declared in the WSB.

[bbbean]

Look at the rules. 4.1.4.1, 9.1.6, and since it was hardcover, it wasn't a legal stage anyway... See 4.2.5

The OP said the A zone was available further downrange. 4.2.5 only specifies the highest scoring area has to be available, it doesn't have to be available from the most convenient point.

Sounds like this could have been avoided had the barrels been properly taped, and shooters reminded that barrels were hard cover.

I have a couple of shooters who would game a 100 yard dash, so I've gotten in the habit of specifying hard cover barrels in the walk through any time this sort of situation presents itself.

BB

[Sarge]

Barrels should be illegal! Our match has always used a bunch on one stage and they are a PITA. Once a barrel is not taped it is no longer hard cover. You can not tell if a shooter shoots through it or just nicks it if it already has holes in it.

I plan to ween our match off of barrels.

[juan]

why not just call them soft cover? problem solved

you got to be 1 lucky fool to get a bullet to pass through bolth sides of a barrel.

[wreckshooter]

Thanks for the quick replies. I am fairly new to USPSA so I am basically keeping my mouth shut but trying to learn, and I did from your replies.

[walter hornby]

Ok i am an IPSC guy not USPSA but i am willing to bet on this the rules are the same but the numbering may differ:

4.1.4.1 Cover provided to hide all or a portion of a target will be considered hard cover. When possible hard cover should not be simulated but constructed using impenetrable materials (see Rule 2.1.3).

Whole paper targets must not be used solely as hard cover.

Therefore the barrel was hard cover unless the WSB declared it softcover.

[jester121]

Wouldn't nice white no-shoot target stapled to the front of the barrel solve the problem nicely?

The rules (and practices in the real world) on walls and such are very confusing for new guys like me. I'd be pretty disgusted to see a fellow competitor blow holes through one of our club's barrels or plastic walls just to "game" the stage when he knows where the target is underneath.

[Graham Smith]

why not just call them soft cover? problem solved you got to be 1 lucky fool to get a bullet to pass through bolth sides of a barrel.

With very few exceptions, you don't want to declare a barrel as soft cover. For one thing, you end up destroying the barrel. But more importantly, bullets hitting plastic barrels can do strange things. Sometimes they go through, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they just wiz around inside like an angry bee, sometimes they come out the top. Sometimes they slide off the side and go who knows where.

[juan]

why not just call them soft cover? problem solved you got to be 1 lucky fool to get a bullet to pass through bolth sides of a barrel.

With very few exceptions, you don't want to declare a barrel as soft cover. For one thing, you end up destroying the barrel. But more importantly, bullets hitting plastic barrels can do strange things. Sometimes they go through, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they just wiz around inside like an angry bee, sometimes they come out the top. Sometimes they slide off the side and go who knows where.

all valid points

trying to learn myself.

[sperman]

If you declare barrels to be hard cover, you have to maintain them. If the barrels already have 10 or 20 holes in them from the last match, it is nearly impossible to determine if a competitors shot went through the barrel or not.

[kevin c]

Just to be sure I have this down - if a round passes through any kind of soft cover and strikes a target, must the hit show the characteristics of a bullet hole (grease ring or a partial diameter hole) to count? Asking just in case the bullet gets mashed up passing through the barrel (of the stage, not of the gun ).

[HoMiE]

Just to be sure I have this down - if a round passes through any kind of soft cover and strikes a target, must the hit show the characteristics of a bullet hole (grease ring or a partial diameter hole) to count? Asking just in case the bullet gets mashed up passing through the barrel (of the stage, not of the gun ).

9.5.5 Enlarged holes in paper targets which exceed the competitor’s bullet diameter will not count for score or penalty unless there is visible evi- dence within the remnants of the hole (e.g. a grease mark or a “crown” etc.), to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet or splatter.

[9x45]

Well if only the D zone was visible from the starting position, then A zone hits are impossible without passing thru the barrel, holes or no holes. I would have scored anything outside of the D zone as a mike.

[sperman]

Barrels should be illegal! Our match has always used a bunch on one stage and they are a PITA.

I agree, Sarge. Plastic barrels are just a problem waiting to happen, no matter how hard you try to maintain them.

[JFlowers]

For anything above a local match, I like to put a no-shoot in front of the barrel. Pretty much puts a stop to all the nonsense.

At a local shoot some years ago, a set of barrels were declared in the WSB as soft cover. I was the first shooter on the stage, shooting a 45 in L10 with 230 jacketed. After reviewing the targets the WSB got changed! Between the rounds (3 each just to be safe) and the explosion of plastic, the targets were pretty shredded.

[MarkCO]

Barrels should be illegal! Our match has always used a bunch on one stage and they are a PITA.

I agree, Sarge. Plastic barrels are just a problem waiting to happen, no matter how hard you try to maintain them.

Concur! I use pallets with (2) pieces of plywood and 2x4 for supports and then cover with no shoots. The SC 18x24 steel plates also make good hardcover with no need to tape them.

[bagdad45]

Our club has declared barrels as soft cover. A shooter takes the chance that a hit on the target can be scored or that the bullet goes through at all. If I have targets partially hidden behind barrels I paint the portion hidden as hard cover. If a shooter gets lucky and a bullet goes through doesn't matter hole is in hard cover.