Help me to not DQ again!

[Vincerama]

I was DQ'ed at a match yesterday, but more disturbingly I was almost DQ'ed for something else.

My DQ was for a ND on the make ready command, I was manually decocking my SP-01 and either through lack of concentration or just poor technique, the hammer slipped out of my fingers and the gun fired downrange. A rightly deserved DQ. Well, I will not make that mistake again. I went home and practiced 30 times or so without a problem. The hammer was a touch oily from me over-oiling it, but the fault was all mine, not the oils. The hammer was in my fingers and my poor technique fired the gun. Did I pull the trigger simultaneously?

My correction for that is (aside using another gun) to run through the steps in my head, since time is NOT of the essense when making ready. 1) Pinch the hammer with weak hand. 2) pull it back a bit to ENSURE I have a good grip, and to take it off the sear so I'm sure I'm holding it, and it's not the sear holding it in position. 3) Pull trigger 4) ease down hammer. I was NOT doing step 2 (I hunted the net for good manual decocking techniques, this seems reasonable) and I think that I was assuming that I had the hammer held firmly when I pulled the trigger.

Well, lesson learned to be more careful, improve technique and focus on the task at hand.

OK, what was actually more disturbing to me, because I didn't realize I was doing it was, that on one course that required moving back up range, I ALMOST broke 180. I think this one, I can certainly watch for with any stage that requires moving back up range.

Also, I didn't realize I was doing this, nor do I recall doing it, but if I moved between arrays without reloading, the RO said I had my finger in the gaurd. I don't think I did, I tend to curl my finger out of the guard and it looks like it's in the guard, but I must learn to lay my finger along the frame so that I am definitely not in the guard. I don't know if I am or not, which is the problem. How can I train myself to make sure I do this? Lay my finger along the slide with every reload and move?

I think maybe as a newbie (5 matches) there is still hope for me, as the habits are not set in stone. I was trying to be a bit competitive, but I think I might be better served to going back to just trying not to DQ and shooting A's and completely forget about any speed.

I am quite willing to stop and think between arrays. Stop. Make sure finger is out of guard and along the gun. Briskly walk (not run) with gun definitely down range, exaggerate if necessary. Reloading? OK, nice and smooth, ensure finger is visibly (to the RO) out of the guard, don't break 180 on reload.

I understand these things and I believe I can be a safe competitor. I'm not in it to be the best, just to have fun, but getting a taste of DQing is quite bitter. A good slap in the face that I have other things to work on before getting a high score. I was defintely discouraged, but rather than being angry, I think it's best to get back on the horse after a reset on my priorities (safety, then accuracy (since accuracy doesn't compromise safety), then speed will come later).

So what can I do at home and at the range to practice good safe techniques? I can certainly dry-practice decocking the gun safely. I can definitely practice a drawing and reloading safely. Breaking 180 I can do by deciding not to run from box to box but to move at a quick walk. But how can I drill in good trigger discipline?

I've been shooting for over a decade, so my gun handling skills are good and safe. The decocking is something I would never ever do in real life, and so have not practiced much. I only have one DA/SA gun (the SP-01) and even outside of USPSA, I would never consider decocking it (it has a safety, why would I purposely pull the trigger on a loaded gun to decock? It violates the third basic firearms safety rule! Oh yeah, because USPSA says I have to if I want to use that gun in production). Sure I can switch to a Glock, or a decocker, but I think I'll just practice this one with better technique. Usual range shooting does not require you to move between targets. I would shoot up a magazine, then reload. And obviously my finger is out of the trigger guard when I reload. Only at a USPSA match have I encountered moving between targets and I think that if I'm not doing a reload in between, I don't think enough about where my finger is.

So for a guy who is not stupid, but IS a newbie at USPSA and it's necessary skills, what can I do to make myself an upstanding respected and safe competitor? Should I buy an airsoft and run around my basement/backyard to drill in the trigger and muzzle discipline?

OK, I know I mostly wrote this because I'm feeling bad about the DQ, but I do want genuine tips on how I can break my bad habits, and better manual decocking tips would be nice too. And no, I won't give up and I won't switch guns to avoid the situation UNLESS you guys think that I should just to take the decocking out of the DQ equation. (I can run in Limited 10 with my CZ75 SA which has a safety, I won't get much points with 9mm, but like I said, maybe that would be helpful while I figure out the rest of my issues?)

Thanks guys! I'm glad there is such a great resource as BE forums!

[EkuJustice]

ON the trigger issue, pick a point on the gun to place the finger when not engaging targets. Practic dryfire and either moving or reloading and putting that finger there every time. On the retreat stages, you can try just backing up. It is slower but safer if your new to it. In your dryfire, you can practice the turn and run method where the gun is basically pointing behind you. Its not that hard but the getting in and out of the run can be a little tricky if you dont practice. I pretty much keep the gun down range then roll the other shoulder around and go.

For hammer slippage try using the progrip on your hands if they are sweaty or give the hammer a quick wipe down in the holster before you step to the line

[twodownzero]

There is no such thing as almost breaking the 180.

If the RO saw your finger on the trigger when moving/not aiming at targets, you got a pass. If it was me, you would have got sent home.

Edited May 8, 2012 by twodownzero

[lumpygravy]

OK - long post so here's a few pointers:

I was DQ'ed at a match yesterday, but more disturbingly I was almost DQ'ed for something else.

My DQ was for a ND on the make ready command, I was manually decocking my SP-01 and either through lack of concentration or just poor technique, the hammer slipped out of my fingers and the gun fired downrange.

I don't know the manual of arms for that gun, but I'm sure someone else does and will chime in here....

OK, what was actually more disturbing to me, because I didn't realize I was doing it was, that on one course that required moving back up range, I ALMOST broke 180. I think this one, I can certainly watch for with any stage that requires moving back up range.

Are you sure you did/did not? Did the RO call you on this? Sometimes 180 can be context sensitive depending on the range configuration. If you are unsure, you should ask the RO next time to be clear.

Also, I didn't realize I was doing this, nor do I recall doing it, but if I moved between arrays without reloading, the RO said I had my finger in the gaurd. I don't think I did, I tend to curl my finger out of the guard and it looks like it's in the guard, but I must learn to lay my finger along the frame so that I am definitely not in the guard. I don't know if I am or not, which is the problem. How can I train myself to make sure I do this? Lay my finger along the slide with every reload and move?

Again, are you sure you did/did not? Did the RO call you on this? If the RO did not see clearly then s/he cannot make the call. If you recieved the comment as a warning, it is one you should take seriously.

Some folks like to put a small piece of grip tape or something else along the frame so there is a tactile (not tactical ) indicator they can feel that leaves no question that the finger is out side of the trigger guard.

I think maybe as a newbie (5 matches) there is still hope for me, as the habits are not set in stone. I was trying to be a bit competitive, but I think I might be better served to going back to just trying not to DQ and shooting A's and completely forget about any speed.

I am quite willing to stop and think between arrays. Stop. Make sure finger is out of guard and along the gun. Briskly walk (not run) with gun definitely down range, exaggerate if necessary. Reloading? OK, nice and smooth, ensure finger is visibly (to the RO) out of the guard, don't break 180 on reload.

There's definitely hope. The fact that you took the time to post this indicates that you are concerned about your safety and that of your fellow shooters. If it means walking between firing points for a while, do it so that you ingrain the safety into your subconsciousnes. I've heard some guys yell to themselves "FINGER OUT" before they reload or move.

I understand these things and I believe I can be a safe competitor. I'm not in it to be the best, just to have fun, but getting a taste of DQing is quite bitter. A good slap in the face that I have other things to work on before getting a high score. I was defintely discouraged, but rather than being angry, I think it's best to get back on the horse after a reset on my priorities (safety, then accuracy (since accuracy doesn't compromise safety), then speed will come later).

I'd say youre priorities are in the right order.

So what can I do at home and at the range to practice good safe techniques? I can certainly dry-practice decocking the gun safely. I can definitely practice a drawing and reloading safely. Breaking 180 I can do by deciding not to run from box to box but to move at a quick walk. But how can I drill in good trigger discipline?

On the muzzle control thing, I always used to tell newbs to imagine a rubberband extending from the muzzle to the berm. Anytime they moved laterally or during a retreat, the rubberband maintains tension on the muzzle keeping it safely pointed downrange.

...

Usual range shooting does not require you to move between targets. I would shoot up a magazine, then reload. And obviously my finger is out of the trigger guard when I reload. Only at a USPSA match have I encountered moving between targets and I think that if I'm not doing a reload in between, I don't think enough about where my finger is.

So for a guy who is not stupid, but IS a newbie at USPSA and it's necessary skills, what can I do to make myself an upstanding respected and safe competitor? Should I buy an airsoft and run around my basement/backyard to drill in the trigger and muzzle discipline?

You had it right earlier: slow down and be safe first. You can also practice at home with an empty gun.

OK, I know I mostly wrote this because I'm feeling bad about the DQ, but I do want genuine tips on how I can break my bad habits, and better manual decocking tips would be nice too. And no, I won't give up and I won't switch guns to avoid the situation UNLESS you guys think that I should just to take the decocking out of the DQ equation. (I can run in Limited 10 with my CZ75 SA which has a safety, I won't get much points with 9mm, but like I said, maybe that would be helpful while I figure out the rest of my issues?)

Thanks guys! I'm glad there is such a great resource as BE forums!

Again, can't help you with your SP-01 because I don't know it.

Don't feel poorly. Just make sure you do everything you can to be safer next time.

[Torogi]

Vince,

I shoot the same gun. And I've ND'd at least 2x now, fortunately not in a match, during live fire practice, 2 separate occasions. And for each time, i wasn't paying attention to what i was doing. And yes, it will startle the hell out of you because it goes bang when you're not expecting it.

When you do LAMR, look at what your doing. Visualize it. Its part of the game. Especially when you lower that hammer. I have a hunch you pulled that trigger before you had a good grip on the hammer. After you successfully dropped the hammer, holster it then run your routine in your mind. Do your visualization.

As far as breaking 180, its hard to tell. 2 options, finish your reload first before you start running, or grab the mag then insert it when you reach your shooting position. My rule of thumb is if im running to my 7 o'clock, i point my SH index finger (resting on the frame) towards 12,, and running to 4 o'clock, dropped elbows, gun by shoulder high (away from shoulder, not to sweep my own shoulder).

Don't let the manual safety decocking deter you on the CZ, give it a good practice, focus on what you're doing!!

[DoubleL]

I keep a small rag in a pocket of my pants, usually cargo type, while shooting at practice. As soon as I collect my mags, I wipe down the entire hammer area on my Shadow, directly after holstering. If you over oil along the flat surface that shoves the hammer down on the bottom of the slide, it gets everywhere and quickly. The first few shots, if using something like SlideGlide, usually pushes some out to the edges next to the hammer base too. That stuff makes grabbing the hammer difficult.

I experimented a bit with grabbing the hammer and squeezing the trigger then letting the hammer fall from various spots along it's normal travel, all while pointed in a safe direction of course. Made me feel better just knowing exactly how hard TOO HARD is when letting the hammer down.

I follow the advice given above. Decocking is part of my draw practice, while using live ammo. EVERY time I make sure I pay attention and look right at the hammer. Pinch that hammer hard and visually double check it's fully decocked, every time. Just make doing it right a habit.

Kudos to you for putting your DQ out for all to see.

[blaster113]

there's a saying that goes something like its not a matter of if you're going to get DQ'd, but when. I got mine about a year ago. I felt ashamed and dirty, like I got caught playing house with my best friend's hot sister

there's a lot going on at a USPSA match from the very beginning when you park your car, put your rig on and go to the safety area to holster your pistol, to at the end of a stage at unload and show clear. try to slow down and think about whats going on at each point. the "make ready" portion has already been discussed. when breaking down the stage you're going to find certain points where you're going to shoot from. be cognizant about the muzzle when approaching those points, shooting, and then moving to the next position. when moving around I keep my booger picker on the frame/slide, not on the trigger guard; its just a bigger area to land the finger on and a little less likely to go into the trigger guard. this helps keep the finger away from the trigger doing reloads too.

I had to give my first DQ as a newly minted RO the other week to a new shooter at his first match for breaking the 180. not a pleasant feeling but it had to be done.

[Onagoth]

To me it sounds like your safety is not yet unconscious.

Right from the minute I started competing, I decided that i wouldn't be the shooter on the range that everyone is worried about, and made safety my top priority.

in regards to the trigger finger, to me, this would of definitely earned a DQ. This is one of the easiest things to correct, with practice. Dry fire and live fire practice sessions will cure this in no time if you stay mentally aware of it.

Breaking 180. this one can be tricky in my experience depending on the range setup. This is something to flag on the walkthrough or air gunning part. Keep it in your mind before you shoot and decide how best to move while not even coming close.

Decocking is practice. Make a point of wiping the hammer down with a rag (in your holster) and wipe your hands if this really is an oiling issue. I've never seen a round go off this way, but this probably is only a matter of time.

With practice, I would advise to practice until you can't get it wrong. Until the trigger finger, movement, path of the bullets beyond the targets.....this will all become subconscious with enough practice. At that point, you will always shoot safely, you won't be able to turn it off.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Onagoth

[Vincerama]

Thank you for all the tips!

To clarify, my "almost breaking 180" came in my first match when the RO said "Watch when you reload, don't point the gun up too high!", then on my last match, as I was doing a "retreat" (thanks for that word!) I made sure my hand and arm was behind me, but my wrist was not pointed straight back, I immediately corrected it when the RO yelled "Watch it! Watch the 180!" so that was a close one, and a mistake I won't make again.

I dislike decocking, but I'll use the tips I've learned and practice at home, I will not ND on LAMR again!

The trigger finger, I need to work on being conscious of. The RO told me that he could see (on reloads) I was cocking my finger out (which I do on purpose) but because I'm not laying it along the frame, and just have it curled out of the guard, it's had to see if it's in or out and I might get called out. I can practice this at home. Running between shooting boxes without reloading ... I think I really need to think before leaving the first box "FINGER OUT!" as I think this is the big failing. I will definitely also put some grip tape or something on the frame where I can index my finger too.

I never thought about dropping the mag at the first box and reinserting the new mag when I got to the next box, but this only works if you are in slide lock, otherwise the gun still has one in the chamber. I think that's a good idea, but I better just work on the finger on slide. I'm not opposed to yelling "finger out!" at least until I get it down subconsciously.

Thanks for all the tips, I will slow it down and play for safety from now on until I've drilled these things into my head. I know practice and muscle memory will help, as I've already trained my draw and grip to be pretty good without thinking about it. I go straight to the thumbs forward, instead of whatever I was doing before (half weaver, half whatever I see on TV).

I mentioned my DQ to another newbie at work (who DQ'ed on his first and only match by breaking 180) and he said that at the safety course he took, the instructor said "I don't trust those decocking levers, you should manually decocking by pinching the hammer and pulling the trigger". At my safety class, the two instructors didn't mention decocking at all. The showed us how to draw and fire, and also the range safety rules like the safe area, the sequence of how to get ready for a match without breaking the safety rules, what the commands were. But at the class I had my SA gun, and the other two students had 1911's so the decocking issue never arose.

Hopefully, you will not hear about any more DQ's from me! (It means a 6 month ban from that range if I do!)

And I hope other newbies can get some tips too!

Please post more safety tips if you have them!

[shooting for M]

The only comment I really have is on the 180, and it sounds a like your possible 180 will be a slightly different subject.

For a lateral 180 safety precaution, when you move in any direction, try to keep your weapon pointed downrange independently of the rest of your body, as straight downrange as possible. You can practice this dry fire. Reloads while moving to your support side are the most difficult thing to do and maintain good muzzle integrity, you may want to really slow down on that for a while and practice the heck out of it.

As for a vertical 180 on a reload, you may be bringing the gun too close to your face. Just drop your elbow straight down against your ribs without thinking and see where your muzzle ends up. the gun should be about 6-8" away from your face and about 45 degrees angled up. Now take a magazine and properly index it and without thought and with your wrist in a natural position bring it up to where the gun should be and notice the angle. The angle of the magazine and magwell should match closely. A friend of mine had a similar issue and it was mostly due to him being too rigid in his movements.

Sounds like you are pretty squared away on what you have to do. Maybe slow down a bit for a while you really shouldn't be thinking "go fast" just limit your wasted motion and move smoothly. I'm not going to say don't worry about it, because you need to be safety conscience, but fix the issue, sounds like you are, and move on. I had my one match DQ a few years ago, my first bigger match in limited using a Limcat and wasn't 100% on when I should lock it. It fell out on a seated start, it was a bad day watching my dad shoot the rest of the day when we hadn't shot a match together in years. Lesson learned, practiced the heck out of drawing while the holster is "locked" and now I lock it on everything but a stand and shoot start.

[Primo]

hey vince i also had two AD when i first got my SP01 and it happened by me not pulling the hammer all the way back before pressing the trigger, and like you i also new to uspsa (2matches)so to rectify and hopefully minimize that problem from happening in competition, each time i do dry fire practice (2-3times weekly) iload a magazine with 20 dummy rnds and practice lamr each time decocking.

[kevin c]

We teach "muzzle into the berm" as a safety mantra in our club's safety course. Lumpy Gravy's idea is also used - a string tied to the muzzle with the other end fixed to a safe bullet impact point in the middle of the berm.

Maybe you've seen the "You know you're a shooter when..." thread in Humor? There must be at least a half dozen comments on folks realizing they keep their trigger fingers off of whatever tool they have in hand, even if its lightyears from being a firearm. You could cultivate the same when off the range. Be it a drill, hairdryer, TV remote or even just a pencil, get in the habit of consciously taking the finger off whatever activates what you are holding and place it in a "safe", nonactivating position. With enough repetition, it will become an automatic unconscious habit that will carry over when you are shooting.

You are already emphasizing the safety first attitude. Keep up the good work!

[motosapiens]

How can I train myself to make sure I do this? Lay my finger along the slide with every reload and move?

<snip>

I only have one DA/SA gun (the SP-01) and even outside of USPSA, I would never consider decocking it (it has a safety, why would I purposely pull the trigger on a loaded gun to decock? It violates the third basic firearms safety rule! Oh yeah, because USPSA says I have to if I want to use that gun in production). Sure I can switch to a Glock, or a decocker, but I think I'll just practice this one with better technique.

Hey vincerama, thanks for sharing your story. I figure if rob leatham can dq himself, then it's not a badge of shame for you to do it, so don't beat yourself up over it.

You sound like you are pretty constructive about the whole thing, so I only have 2 comments on the quoted bits above:

First, regarding the finger in the trigger-guard, if you don't dry-fire practice in your back yard or somewhere else the cops won't get called, you should, and one of the things you should practice is pulling the trigger a few times while sighted in on targets, and then moving, with your finger well up out of the trigger guard. You can get your wife/girlfriend/kids (hopefully they're not all the same people) to help watch your finger a few minutes. Before long, it will become totally instinctive. Sometimes people warn you on this when they really just can't see, and that can throw your game off a little, so it helps my shooting to just make it really really obvious that the finger is not in the guard to placate the occasional overzealous RO.

Second, regarding decocking, I also shoot cz's, and I have a decocker model and a safety model. I think the decocker is lame, and designed by lawyers. The safety model is more versatile (I can start cocked and locked for steel challenge, or hammer down for production/SSP), and the safety is nicely shaped and placed to work as a thumbrest of sorts for me. After a day at the range with the safety model, I started manually decocking my decocker model as well, and also my bersa 22 plinker (which also has a built-in decocker). I figure practice makes perfect, so I manually decock all the time; at home, at the range, wherever. I do make sure the gun is pointed in a safe direction, but I think that practice makes perfect, so if I'm doing something dumb, it is more likely to show up at home or at the practice range, where 95% of my decocking occurs. If it happens at a match.... well, that will be a bummer, but it won't be because I didn't practice.

cheers and beer,

-mark

Edited May 9, 2012 by motosapiens

[kasen]

There is no such thing as almost breaking the 180.

Please excuse my potential ignorance, how is 179 degrees not almost breaking the 180?

There are plenty of times I've seen shooters go to what seems like right on the 180, but not over. To me that looks like almost breaking the 180.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

[kevin c]

His point, I think, is that no rules are being broken if the gun is brought close to but not across the "180".

Some folks object to warnings about nonviolations of the rules, including safety regulations. Others feel such calls are the duty of a safety conscious RO/SO.

This has been debated extensively on other threads, and probably is not worth revisiting here.

[Vincerama]

I think, depending on the RO and depending on if you are a newbie and ask the RO for help, the RO will yell out warnings like "Watch your finger!" and "Watch the 180"! So for a newbie, the warnings are worth it, but also unsettling, like being scolded by your Mom for doing something dumb.

The safety class I went to covered most of the range related safety items, and I think the 180, trigger discipline and of course not NDing are the major safety concerns.

Are there any others? What other things should I watch for?

There was an experienced shooter at the same match who got DQ'ed breaking the 180 when he drew a bit too soon during one of those starts where you are facing uprange. I avoid that by only drawing when I've turned around and that's an easy I think ... but then I thought decocking would be simple too!

You know, I also am a bit worried that the next time I go to the match, the RO will eye me and think "Ugh, that guy again!" But I will get in some practice and drilling in before the next one! So I'm skipping the next closest match to gather my wits and practice. Oh, and because my wife won't let me go.

[lumpygravy]

You know, I also am a bit worried that the next time I go to the match, the RO will eye me and think "Ugh, that guy again!" But I will get in some practice and drilling in before the next one! So I'm skipping the next closest match to gather my wits and practice. Oh, and because my wife won't let me go.

Don't skip the match because you feel self conscious. There's no better way to get over it than to confront it.

Honey dues (if they are indeed honey dues) trumps any local match - at least for me.

[Frady]

I used to shoot a CZ clone that did not have a de-cocker. When I first started shooting I was really worried about a ND as you described and a friend advised me to stick a finger between the hammer and the firing pin when pulling the trigger.

On the LAMR command I would seat the mag, rack the slide and before touching my finger to the trigger my weak hand pinky and ring finger covered the firing pin. As I slowly let the hammer down I would pull my fingers out once I was confident I had control. I'll take a slightly tender pinky over a ND any day. I've done it so much that now it's hard to NOT to do it.

[kjolly]

Tough habits to learn but its all in being safe. I rest my trigger finger on the ejection port. Provides a positive identifable place to put the finger.

[Jeff F]

I think the best way not to do some of the things you listed is to go at a pace you are comfortable with and learn the basics while going slow. Nobody wants to get DQed but nobody wants a loaded gun pointed at them either.

When we play this game we need to be aware of everythng that is going on and remember that safety comes before speed and scores. Practice going slow and muscle memory will kick it and hopefully it will become natual.

[mike cyrwus]

Ill make this short and sweet; Beginners should focus on doing everything safely; even at the expense of the moving and shooting part.

Being safe quickly, during a normal course of fire, is a skill in and of itself. This will help your scores and overall skill progression.

Dont take the DQ's too hard. Not too lightly, but dont feel bad. You were still safe; the RO DQ-ing you stopped you before you became unsafe.

Learn the lesson that you received and move on; chin up.

[dlidster]

I, too, shoot a CZ. My decocking routine is very slow and deliberate. I pinch the hammer tightly between my thumb and forefinger, pull back on the hammer, then pull the trigger to release the sear. Next, I ease the hammer down until my thumb and forefinger come into contact with the rear of the slide. When I feel full contact with the slide I release the trigger. Releasing the trigger allows the firing pin intercept to fall into position so if the hammer slips from this point it can't come into contact with the primer.

You could cheat (for safety's sake) and release the trigger before your thumb and forefinger contact the rear of the slide. This will allow the firing pin intercept to drop as it should, but will also allow the sear to catch the hammer in the half-cock notch. (A CZ with a decocker catches the hammer in the half-cock notch.)

I became super-conscientious about this when I made a transition from a Beretta 92FS to the CZ. The Beretta is the safest gun to decock on earth. The CZ is not.

Just a few thoughts that have helped me...

[Sarge]

You know, I also am a bit worried that the next time I go to the match, the RO will eye me and think "Ugh, that guy again!"

A good RO won't say that even to himself. But he will say to himself, "watch this guy close since he DQ'd last match". A year or two ago we had a local shooter who for a short stretch DQ'd 2 or maybe 3 times in a short period. No RO ever made a comment at all but we all watched him like a hawk.

As somebody already said, if the RO is on his game the DQ comes before things get too dangerous.

[heckofagator]

OP, thanks for sharing your story. I, too, have a SP-01 Shadow and have been worrying about the manual decocking. In fact, I've still yet to make it to my first match, but its something I've been a little nervous about because of that.

dlidster, thanks for the tip on releasing the trigger before letting go of the hammer. I'm guessing this is perfectly ok to do it like that since that first pull is still DA? Even if its in the half cocked position? I just tried it and it appears to work great.

[eric4069]

I will definitely also put some grip tape or something on the frame where I can index my finger too.

If you are shooting USPSA Production division, grip tape forward on the frame is not within the diagram of permitted grip tape locations so I believe would not meet Production Division requirments. (appendix E4)

Eric

Edited July 11, 2012 by eric4069