Took my eye off the score keeper

[joefreas]

This past weekend I was up at my local club. I was having a great day until stage 4. I shot it fine with no errors, and when I got my time it was 28 seconds instead of 18. There was a ton of people waiting to shoot the stage and after the RO insisted 28 was correct I just took my sheet and headed for the next stage. I was unsure and second guessing myself.

I went back and shot the stage yesterday and shot it in 17 seconds my first run then twice at 14 seconds.

A bit bummed because last month I won overall and was hoping for a repeat win. Oh well I guess I learned an important lesson about watching the scorer. I dont think I will bother disputing the time, I shoot just for fun and think any drama caused disputing times may eat into the fun.

I will just have to kick some butt next month!

[Retread1911]

Great attitude joe! Winning is always more fun but the arguments especially after the score sheets are tallied aren't worth it.

I cannot tell time during my stages assuming I am shooting well so I would have no basis for argument for me in the first place.

[deacon12224]

Almost the exact same thing happened to me at a major match not long ago. I was one of the first shooters on a stage. Went really well and got all alphas and one charlie. Time was 28 something. Signed the scoresheet and got busy pasting, etc. Later the stats peolple came around to pick up the scoresheets and one of the guys I was shooting with picks them and says, "Is this your time?" My time was ten seconds longer than anybody in the squad. I usually shoot top half of the pack. Nothing I could do about it at that point. The only thing I can think of is that the timer picked up my slide coming forward on show clear.

I have started trying to get an idea of what I should shoot a stage in and really pay attention to the scorekeeper as he calls out my time. I have also started doing my show clear routine quietly and not letting the slide slam forward. The rules are really fuzzy on what you can do if you don't think a time is realistic.

[Flexmoney]

If it makes you feel better...I am pretty sure I lost a state level match last year due to an error in communication.

In my case, I think that a competitor's time was called out as...

Twenty

Four

Two

It was written down as Twenty point Four Two (20.42)

But, I strongly believe it was really Twenty Four point Two Zero. (24.2)

That was enough to put him into first and me into second.

Oh well.

[TreblePlink]

I've sometimes seen the combination of:

A. Timer mic sensitivity turned up too high, and

B. The RO failing to withdraw the timer away from the shooter after the last shot, or

C. Contact with brass or other hard objects,

causing additional time to be recorded.

As a competitor, I make a point of clearing the gun quietly, and as an RO, when the shooter is obviously done, holding it at arm's length behind me to get it away from slide racking noises and to allow the scorekeeper to see it right away. (But always get a scorekeeper readback of the time)

Much depends upon how sensitive the timer is.

[jar]

and as an RO, when the shooter is obviously done, holding it at arm's length behind me to get it away from slide racking noises and to allow the scorekeeper to see it right away. (But always get a scorekeeper readback of the time)

I glance at the time on the way back. I don't pay enough attention to read the whole thing exactly until the range is clear, but I get enough to realize if it picks up something during ULASC.

[KenRH]

I've been at this for two years, and in that time I have seen the timer advance on two occasions after the last shot due to the SO holding the timer too close to the shooter during the show clear process.

I hate to remind folks more experienced than I am that it helps if they move the timer away from the shooter after he says he's finished. I'll typically try to position myself to see the timer after the last shot, and if I see it advance again I'll let the SO know what I saw. It's not possible to see the timer if the display is pointed at the shooter's head during the show clear.

I really appreciate SOs who move the timer around their back after the shooter indicates he is finished. I'll write the time down, he'll eventually read it when he's ready, and I'll repeat it back as ##"dot"##. I don't know if this is allowed in anything other than a local match, but it would have avoided the issue in the OP.

I have never had an SO (even those with years of experience) get irritated with me after I suggested moving the timer away from the shooter after the shooter says he done so I can see it.

When it advanced during the show clear process and was caught, the SO stepped through the splits to the last fired shot and everyone was happy.

Since the only things I do well in this irritating sport are score and tape, I get stuck with scoring a lot. Might as well try to do it right.

Ken

[HS101]

I always make the score keeper repeat the time back to me, and if I do not know them well, I will double check it on the paper. If I am keeping score, I repeat the time back to the RO. It should be no different than repeating the score as it is called...

[jmorris]

I hold the timer over my shoulder so the SO can read it himself while I am clearing the shooter. Once "range is safe" I read the time out loud. At sanctioned matches I have, more than once, had SOs go back over zeros that could be mistaken for 6, etc.

[joefreas]

Thank you for all the great input and stories. Wow I cant imagine losing a state championship due to a scoring error! It looks like I will have to keep a closer eye on what is transpiring between the RO and the score keeper. In this case it was a new RO and a young kid keeping score (about 10 years old) that didn't look too enthusiastic about his job.

BTW I really like this forum.

Edited May 6, 2012 by joefreas

[Sin-ster]

I ended up with 2 reshoots on a stage in which the timer was malfunctioning. I was amped up so much after the first run that I barely heard the time called, and only dimly realized that it didn't sound right. After the next shooter ran, it became pretty obvious that there was no way in heck that I shot it more than twice as slow.

The next time around, I paid even closer attention and again, it was way too slow-- by almost double what I thought it should be. Frankly speaking, short of a malfunction, it was almost physically impossible for me to turn in anything but the fastest time on the stage out of our squad.

We replaced the timer, went back and gave a couple of other people reshoots who protested, and pressed on. Despite being (I believe) my slowest of all 3 runs, the official time that went into the books was certainly accurate!

I think that's a super-rare instance. The timer itself was an archaic thing that had some funky setting turned on; no one had ever seen one like it, so we just went out of a bag with one that definitely did the job. (My CED, as I recall...) As with our firearms, the most common cause of issues is operator error-- I'm not ashamed to say that I hawk the score keeper and RO as best as I can after the stage. Mistakes happen, for sure.

It's also easy to get complacent or fall into a routine during scoring, especially on a long, hot day or at a Major where you go through the situation several hundred times. I'll be ROing my first major in late October, and I will do my level best to give every last competitor the full attention that they deserve. We are volunteers for sure, but IMHO, after maintaining a safe shooting environment, our most important job is to get the scoring done right for the sake of the shooters.

Flex's story is going to give me nightmares-- from the perspective of having that happen to me, as well as making that mistake and costing another competitor a much-deserved win...

[kcinnick]

Be kind in October, I can't keep up with the score keepers now at the local match, I can't imagine what it is going to be like at my first major match. I hate when they tape the targets before I can look at them, I want to know what I shot! I don't care if the call is double alpha, I want to see where I hit! I also hate when they say alpha,mike or charlie mike and tape before I can look at the target, I know I have lots of room for improvement, but usually I can hit the two shots close together. My big issue is time, 28 seconds is probably right for me on an 18 second stage though... Longer if there is a polish plate rack or texas star, but I have only shot each one once.

I ended up with 2 reshoots on a stage in which the timer was malfunctioning. I was amped up so much after the first run that I barely heard the time called, and only dimly realized that it didn't sound right. After the next shooter ran, it became pretty obvious that there was no way in heck that I shot it more than twice as slow.

The next time around, I paid even closer attention and again, it was way too slow-- by almost double what I thought it should be. Frankly speaking, short of a malfunction, it was almost physically impossible for me to turn in anything but the fastest time on the stage out of our squad.

We replaced the timer, went back and gave a couple of other people reshoots who protested, and pressed on. Despite being (I believe) my slowest of all 3 runs, the official time that went into the books was certainly accurate!

I think that's a super-rare instance. The timer itself was an archaic thing that had some funky setting turned on; no one had ever seen one like it, so we just went out of a bag with one that definitely did the job. (My CED, as I recall...) As with our firearms, the most common cause of issues is operator error-- I'm not ashamed to say that I hawk the score keeper and RO as best as I can after the stage. Mistakes happen, for sure.

It's also easy to get complacent or fall into a routine during scoring, especially on a long, hot day or at a Major where you go through the situation several hundred times. I'll be ROing my first major in late October, and I will do my level best to give every last competitor the full attention that they deserve. We are volunteers for sure, but IMHO, after maintaining a safe shooting environment, our most important job is to get the scoring done right for the sake of the shooters.

Flex's story is going to give me nightmares-- from the perspective of having that happen to me, as well as making that mistake and costing another competitor a much-deserved win...

[cannot]

When I turned in sub 18 second times with a single stack on the Cooper assault, nobody could believe it. They were certain that the times had to be 10 seconds off. :-) This was during stopwatch days. We just used 2-3 guys on the wathces, at big matches.

[Paul-the new guy]

I shot at a podunk club that has a goat rodeo of a match but they had an RF display that showed what the timer said clipped on the score keepers clipboard. Seemed like a good idea. Sorry to hear about the error, it sucks...

[chibern]

When they posted scores for my last local match, my time on one stage was 653 seconds!

Pretty sure I'd remember standing around for 11 minutes shooting one stage... :-)

[Canuck223]

I hold the timer over my shoulder so the SO can read it himself while I am clearing the shooter.

That's what I used to do. In the scorekeepers role, I'd repeat the time I was reading, followed by "Got it". On longer stages where the scorekeeper (and the shooters designated eyeballs) are trailing and scoring, I'd call it out and have it repeated back.

[bbbean]

When they posted scores for my last local match, my time on one stage was 653 seconds!

Pretty sure I'd remember standing around for 11 minutes shooting one stage... :-)

I've shot a few that seemed that long...

[Lee King]

I've been at this for two years, and in that time I have seen the timer advance on two occasions after the last shot due to the SO holding the timer too close to the shooter during the show clear process.

Ken

I was actually the beneficiary of the opposite situation. On a stage a couple of years ago at our State Champs. I had a horrible run. Got out of position and wasted time shuffling to see targets. Threw 2 misses. The RO gave the "IF you are finished unload and show clear" command. I dropped the magazine, looked at a target about 10 ft right in front of me and saw a M. I was so frustrated I brought the gun up and fired the round in the chamber at it (perfectly legal in USPSA.. not always smart for HF, but legal). The RO had moved the timer behind his back when I dropped my mag so it wouldn't pick up any extraneous ULASC noise. It did NOT pick up my final shot. Reshoot.

Smoked it the 2nd run. Shaved 5s and 2M off my score.

Things happen. Sometimes they go against you. Every once in a while they work for you.

[THM7]

I recently shot the Northern AZ State Classic, anyway I had some gun issues on one of the stages (Quinn II mount became loose from the frame) which resulted in a "No Shoot". The recorder kinda made a funny looking "1" in the No Shoot box on the score sheet....anyway I had to get to work in Phoenix and did not wait around for the scores..protest period etc...Next day I checked out the final scores....well instead of "1" No Shoot...I got "11" No Shoots:) Even with that I was the middle of the pack....so make sure the guy/girl recording has legible hand writing. And before you inital the score sheet...look and make damn sure everthing looks right, and check your scores. Still had a great time...made some new Friends and had the weekend away with the wife--no kids.

[pskys2]

The trouble is knowing what it should be. Most times I don't even hear the RO say it, or don't understand it well.

If you do have a question, review the shot string, if it doesn't have like a 5+ second pause between the last 2 shots, unless you were looking around and took that long, it's probably accurate. If not could be an accidental smack to the timer, or any of a number of reasons.

[waynes_world_45]

I've been at this for two years, and in that time I have seen the timer advance on two occasions after the last shot due to the SO holding the timer too close to the shooter during the show clear process.

I hate to remind folks more experienced than I am that it helps if they move the timer away from the shooter after he says he's finished. I'll typically try to position myself to see the timer after the last shot, and if I see it advance again I'll let the SO know what I saw. It's not possible to see the timer if the display is pointed at the shooter's head during the show clear.

I really appreciate SOs who move the timer around their back after the shooter indicates he is finished. I'll write the time down, he'll eventually read it when he's ready, and I'll repeat it back as ##"dot"##. I don't know if this is allowed in anything other than a local match, but it would have avoided the issue in the OP.

I have never had an SO (even those with years of experience) get irritated with me after I suggested moving the timer away from the shooter after the shooter says he done so I can see it.

When it advanced during the show clear process and was caught, the SO stepped through the splits to the last fired shot and everyone was happy.

Since the only things I do well in this irritating sport are score and tape, I get stuck with scoring a lot. Might as well try to do it right.

Ken

That's how I do it too

[A63111]

RO's should quickly look at the time right after the last shot is fired. That way you can see when it is picking up other range noises. Just my .02.

[professor]

I was actually the beneficiary of the opposite situation. On a stage a couple of years ago at our State Champs. I had a horrible run. Got out of position and wasted time shuffling to see targets. Threw 2 misses. The RO gave the "IF you are finished unload and show clear" command. I dropped the magazine, looked at a target about 10 ft right in front of me and saw a M. I was so frustrated I brought the gun up and fired the round in the chamber at it (perfectly legal in USPSA.. not always smart for HF, but legal). The RO had moved the timer behind his back when I dropped my mag so it wouldn't pick up any extraneous ULASC noise. It did NOT pick up my final shot. Reshoot.

Smoked it the 2nd run. Shaved 5s and 2M off my score.

Things happen. Sometimes they go against you. Every once in a while they work for you.

Two comments re RO actions here. First is that the RO was coaching at the completion command, by accentuating the "IF". This is wrong on all match levels, especially so at a major match. Why? Because it's unfair to the other competitors. Second, if he's clueing you in to the Mike, he should anticipate you may take the shot, so he shouldn't have the timer behind his back.

Commment for you is to leave the mag in the gun until you've at least eyeballed the targets in front of you for problems. What if you hadn't even seen one target? That one bullet you had in the chamber would save you a mike and FTE, but leave you with a mike. Also, try to figure out how much time you can afford on a makeup shot before shooting the stage. To maximize HF, it will sometimes mean leaving a mike rather than making it up, when the time to take the makeup shot is excessive.

[professor]

This past weekend I was up at my local club. I was having a great day until stage 4. I shot it fine with no errors, and when I got my time it was 28 seconds instead of 18. There was a ton of people waiting to shoot the stage and after the RO insisted 28 was correct I just took my sheet and headed for the next stage. I was unsure and second guessing myself.

I went back and shot the stage yesterday and shot it in 17 seconds my first run then twice at 14 seconds.

A bit bummed because last month I won overall and was hoping for a repeat win. Oh well I guess I learned an important lesson about watching the scorer. I dont think I will bother disputing the time, I shoot just for fun and think any drama caused disputing times may eat into the fun.

I will just have to kick some butt next month!

Whether there are a bunch of shooters waiting is immaterial. You are entitled to a fair scoring, which includes time.

It's a shame that the RO simply insisted the final time he had was correct, when the timer in his hand had much more information in it that could have resolved the dispute.

Whenever there's a question of final time being correct, you can ask for a review of the stage timer. The shot by shot times are stored, and that can prove, even to a stubborn RO, that a final time is in error. If the timer advanced on clearing the weapon, that would be evident as an extremely long final interval. I've seen sensitive times "double" by picking up echoes of each shot, and sometimes pick up shots from adjoining bays. The shot count can also indicate when the stage should be ended. The pattern of shot intervals can also indicate where the shots were taken relative to the target arrays.

Timer review can also validate what appears to be an exceptionally good time... perhaps questioned by other shooters.

Everybody, shooters and RO staff, should be interested in getting the results correct for every shooter.

[L3324temp]

I only shoot local matches so I don't make an issue of mistakes on my score sheet. There are no prize tables or anything.

One thing to consider, sometimes you get bumped down because of an error on your sheet. Other times you get bumped up because of errors on your sheet, and other times you get bumped up because of errors on other peoples sheets. In the end it probably all balances out. But when you know you got bumped down it does hurt a bit.