Why Are More Saiga 12's Not Used?

[Nalapombu]

Hey all,

Been looking around at the Saiga 12 gauge shotguns and wondering why you 3 gun guys don't use them more often. It seems like it would be a better choice than the Mossy's, Benellis and the rest of the semi autos that are so popular. They would definitely be faster to reload and you could carry more rounds. When every second counts at your level, why are more of you not using the Saiga? Is it in a different class than what you regularly shoot in? Does the class that the elite shooters fall into allow the use of Saigas or is it strictly semi autos like the M2 and 930?

Just wondering. I don't know much about the different classes and such and trying to learn a bit.

Thanks

Nalajr

[Joe4d]

many of the 3 gun organizations came out with rule sets to minimize the saiga's advantage.

[Hi-Power Jack]

many of the 3 gun organizations came out with rule sets to minimize the saiga's advantage.

I just saw one in action last weekend for the first time !!!

WOW !!!

That is a shotgun

[CocoBolo]

I just bought a tube open shotgun. As long as an old man is whipping guys with Sagia's like a rented mule, I'll go with what wins. My personal observation is I've seen too many $3,000 guns that run half a match. I'm waiting for the Akdal to mature, once it shows it is competitive and reliable, I might jump on one of them.

[Corey]

I dont shoot one because I dont want to shoot in Open right now.

[philg80]

Hey all,

Been looking around at the Saiga 12 gauge shotguns and wondering why you 3 gun guys don't use them more often. It seems like it would be a better choice than the Mossy's, Benellis and the rest of the semi autos that are so popular. They would definitely be faster to reload and you could carry more rounds. When every second counts at your level, why are more of you not using the Saiga? Is it in a different class than what you regularly shoot in? Does the class that the elite shooters fall into allow the use of Saigas or is it strictly semi autos like the M2 and 930?

Just wondering. I don't know much about the different classes and such and trying to learn a bit.

Thanks

Nalajr

The Saiga automatically puts a shooter in OPEN Class competition. OPEN, since you are not aware, is where the comped optic handguns, purpose built 3 gun ARs with optics and red dots, and your high end built race shotguns with mags or speed chutes and loaders. The Saiga can be an advantage if you are VERY FAMILIAR with the platform and how to keep it running, but a pretty much stock Saiga is never going to be a reliable option. If you are handy and know how to do the work yourself then you can get a Saiga to work for under $1500. If you do not know how to do the work yourself then it a a $3000 shotgun you will have to purchase and then you still have to learn to maintaing it and run the right ammunition. Hope that helps.....

[co-exprs]

Saiga shotties are really cool, but they don't match our sport as well you might think. 1st, most people shoot tactical division, and the Saiga isn't legal. 2nd, the Saiga requires a lot of work to get it up to competition performance. In stock form they are not nearly reliable enough and while they are inexpensive to start out, by the time you've done all the work they are getting close to the cost of a custom Benelli. 3rd, The box magazine limits versatility. Course designers are more and more designing stages to reduce reload time and increase shooting complexity. Targets like the MGM flipper, 75yd slugs and arials make it very difficult to sequence your rounds and get through a mixed ammo stage without having to make adjustments due to a missed shot, or a steel target which didn't fall. There are a few guys whom have been willing to put in the time and money to make them highly effective, but most of your open class guys would rather have the versatility and reliability of traditional tube fed shotgun.

[Doug H.]

I think that you will find that the top shooters in the sport can win with any gun that is reliable. Open Division is won in many matches with tube fed shotguns. Clint Upchurch has done quite well with an R&R Saiga, but he is an exceptional shooter. As you get farther down the skill ladder, where I live, shotgun style makes more difference and the Saiga makes me more competitive. As was said above, a magazine fed shotgun puts you in open which many shooters do not want to shoot. I like open and I like my Saiga but it's not for everybody. Before I got my first Saiga I hoped that matches would have less shotgun, now it's my second favorite gun after the rifle.

Doug

[Alaskapopo]

You know Saigas are a force to be reckoned with when so much hate from older shooters is generated towards them (because it makes their gear obsolete) and when stage designers do every thing they can to netralize their obvious advantages with short stages with select slug drills every 3 rounds. lol

Pat

Edited March 28, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[wgj3]

Just 2 cents from a guy who has mostly been running a pump gun...Saigas are tough to keep running through an entire match. All the bells and whistles that make it so potentially awesome for 3-gun also add to the complexity of the system. One of the guys that I shoot with a few times a year has one that looks awesome, but he has yet to make it through an entire match with it running. He's $3-4K into the gun, but that doesn't mean anything when it doesn't cycle reliably. No amount of awesome on paper is going to matter unless it actually runs. Reliability is the biggest issue I see at this point.

[Doug H.]

Just 2 cents from a guy who has mostly been running a pump gun...Saigas are tough to keep running through an entire match. All the bells and whistles that make it so potentially awesome for 3-gun also add to the complexity of the system. One of the guys that I shoot with a few times a year has one that looks awesome, but he has yet to make it through an entire match with it running. He's $3-4K into the gun, but that doesn't mean anything when it doesn't cycle reliably. No amount of awesome on paper is going to matter unless it actually runs. Reliability is the biggest issue I see at this point.

The thing I see with many shooters that can't get a Saiga to run is the lack of attention to detail regarding maintenance and selection of shells. I've spent a lot of time getting loads that work in my gun. Once I found loads that worked I always shoot the same load at a match. I've been bitten and seen others bitten by using something untested because they thought it would give them an advantage. Usually does not work. With good shells, a clean gun and fresh springs I rarely have any problem at all. I had a single time at Superstition that I had to give the bolt a little push forward and that was probably due to a soft shell from the heat.

If you want to run a Saiga you need to put in the time to make it work. I think the same with be true of the Akdal or XRail. As I said before, regardless of platform, in most cases the best shooter will win the match because of better skill and better preparation.

Doug

[AlamoShooter]

its just to dang ugly

[outerlimits]

It's a young and old thing...the young guys don't remember communist Russia!

[Alaskapopo]

Just 2 cents from a guy who has mostly been running a pump gun...Saigas are tough to keep running through an entire match. All the bells and whistles that make it so potentially awesome for 3-gun also add to the complexity of the system. One of the guys that I shoot with a few times a year has one that looks awesome, but he has yet to make it through an entire match with it running. He's $3-4K into the gun, but that doesn't mean anything when it doesn't cycle reliably. No amount of awesome on paper is going to matter unless it actually runs. Reliability is the biggest issue I see at this point.

I have had pretty good luck once I figured out what it took to keep the gun running. But even with the guy who has a gun that malfunctions from time to time it still beats a tube gun that has to be reloaded far more often with fumble prone speed loaders. Also the shotguns I have seen malfunction the most are Remington 1100 open guns.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

It's a young and old thing...the young guys don't remember communist Russia!

I do but I don't hold blame the gun for the sins of the country of origin. I do wish Benelli or FN or Remington etc made a magazine fed shotgun. The AKDAL maybe a good option but it still not up to the quality we expect in the former mentioned guns stock.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

If you want to run a Saiga you need to put in the time to make it work. I think the same with be true of the Akdal or XRail. As I said before, regardless of platform, in most cases the best shooter will win the match because of better skill and better preparation.

Doug

Your right its a race car not a Ford Truck. Shotgun in three gun are finicky by nature. The Benelli M2 is an exception to that rule.

Pat

[Dave Campbell]

Sagia"s are UGLY, like GLOCKS, I don't do better with the other options. But I look better. I think.

" Shoot fast, Look Good",Is the motto I've adopted.

Shoot, At this point in my shooting, looking good counts, and the Akdal looks cool as does my 9 open S*I. I perceive, I'm better with this option and That is all that matters to me.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Dave Campbell

[Vespid_Wasp]

The last match I shot...most of the open guys got spanked by everyone else because their Saigas wouldn't run.

I limped thru a match in January because I had my SLP piston set up too light, and even then it ran better than what I saw from the racegun saigas.

I have no desire to shoot open, so the point is moot for me. If I were shooting open, I would look for something different than the Saiga.

Perhaps my small sample set of data is not representative of the whole.

[outerlimits]

It's a young and old thing...the young guys don't remember communist Russia!

I do but I don't hold blame the gun for the sins of the country of origin. I do wish Benelli or FN or Remington etc made a magazine fed shotgun. The AKDAL maybe a good option but it still not up to the quality we expect in the former mentioned guns stock.

Pat

If you laid yer butt on the line, no way you would say that. Guess it's a game for you at this point.

[KentG]

Just 2 cents from a guy who has mostly been running a pump gun...Saigas are tough to keep running through an entire match. All the bells and whistles that make it so potentially awesome for 3-gun also add to the complexity of the system. One of the guys that I shoot with a few times a year has one that looks awesome, but he has yet to make it through an entire match with it running. He's $3-4K into the gun, but that doesn't mean anything when it doesn't cycle reliably. No amount of awesome on paper is going to matter unless it actually runs. Reliability is the biggest issue I see at this point.

The thing I see with many shooters that can't get a Saiga to run is the lack of attention to detail regarding maintenance and selection of shells. I've spent a lot of time getting loads that work in my gun. Once I found loads that worked I always shoot the same load at a match. I've been bitten and seen others bitten by using something untested because they thought it would give them an advantage. Usually does not work. With good shells, a clean gun and fresh springs I rarely have any problem at all. I had a single time at Superstition that I had to give the bolt a little push forward and that was probably due to a soft shell from the heat.

If you want to run a Saiga you need to put in the time to make it work. I think the same with be true of the Akdal or XRail. As I said before, regardless of platform, in most cases the best shooter will win the match because of better skill and better preparation.

Doug

I have found AA shells run the best in mine. It also depends on if your gun prefers one mag or another. My current but semi retired S12 will run 95% plus with AGP but Surefires give me grief. My Akdal is sorting thru the mag issue and I think I know now that I had a couple early ones. THAT platform will be the one to beat. I shoot open because I like it. Im not a contender for the win but if my shotgun runs I usually do well enough to feel good about it.

[Alaskapopo]

It's a young and old thing...the young guys don't remember communist Russia!

I do but I don't hold blame the gun for the sins of the country of origin. I do wish Benelli or FN or Remington etc made a magazine fed shotgun. The AKDAL maybe a good option but it still not up to the quality we expect in the former mentioned guns stock.

Pat

If you laid yer butt on the line, no way you would say that. Guess it's a game for you at this point.

I have a different standard for game guns vs work guns. I used to use just my work guns at matches but then I got good enough locally that my gear was holding me back and I want to win as much as the next guy. I started my first three gun match with a Single Stack Wilson, my 14 inch Remington 870 and a AR10 carbine.The AR10 is the only thing I cheated with at that match because I wanted major power factor. (USPSA three gun with a lot of paper)

No way would I use my open pistol at work either. Work guns for me now are a Glock 17, Remington 870, and a SCAR 17 all personally owned. I would trust my Noveske for work as its been very dependable.

Pat

Edited March 29, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[Mark K]

I think some of the perception that the S12s are unreliable is perception by tube gun shooters. They see one bobble caused by a soft shell, or shooter error (soft shouldering it) or something, and suddenly "Oh, the Saiga is unreliable". But I see the same thing with tube guns all the time at matches,and then figure it is just that guy having a problem. At our matches, we have Tyler Payne, Daniel Horner, Rob Romero, etc shooting all the time, and I have seen them all have problems, and never thought "Gee those Benelli or SLP shotguns sure have problems"............

I am a low level shooter, and shoot a tricked out S12 that I probably have $2k in. Once I started shooting AA shells in it, not a problem, if I do my part.

Mark K

[SinistralRifleman]

The only reason to use a Saiga-12 is if you're a dedicated 3 gunner. Otherwise going through the learning curve of getting the gun running, trying a bunch of ammo, and the ongoing maintenance isn't worth it.

http://sinistralrifleman.com/2012/02/01/the-saiga-12-saga/

[Mark K]

The only reason to use a Saiga-12 is if you're a dedicated 3 gunner. Otherwise going through the learning curve of getting the gun running, trying a bunch of ammo, and the ongoing maintenance isn't worth it.

http://sinistralrifleman.com/2012/02/01/the-saiga-12-saga/

I disagree. I am a sometime 3-Gunner, mostly just shooting our quarterly club 3-Gun matches. I found the idea of buying a bunch of special loaders and shell holders, and learning and practicing a new loading technique be be daunting (I had used other shooters shotguns - open and tactical). I just did not want to dedicate the time it would take to practice it. I found the idea of a shotgun with a magwell that I could load just like an AR (I use an R&R straight in Magwell), with fire controls similar to an AR enticing.

Just look at the thread here on SG loading techniques. Shotgun reloading is the make or break of 3-Gun.

YES, the Saiga is relatively expensive to get right, if you are willing to do much of the work yourself you can have a reliable working S12 for under $1800. I sent mine to Jack Travers and had the Gas System reworked, but is well worth it, but that was the only work done on it by someone other than me. Finding the right shells is a matter of a little bit of reading here and on some S12 forums.

Just my opinion.

Mark K

[SinistralRifleman]

I disagree. I am a sometime 3-Gunner, mostly just shooting our quarterly club 3-Gun matches. I found the idea of buying a bunch of special loaders and shell holders, and learning and practicing a new loading technique be be daunting (I had used other shooters shotguns - open and tactical). I just did not want to dedicate the time it would take to practice it. I found the idea of a shotgun with a magwell that I could load just like an AR (I use an R&R straight in Magwell), with fire controls similar to an AR enticing.

Just look at the thread here on SG loading techniques. Shotgun reloading is the make or break of 3-Gun.

YES, the Saiga is relatively expensive to get right, if you are willing to do much of the work yourself you can have a reliable working S12 for under $1800. I sent mine to Jack Travers and had the Gas System reworked, but is well worth it, but that was the only work done on it by someone other than me. Finding the right shells is a matter of a little bit of reading here and on some S12 forums.

Just my opinion.

Mark K

I wouldn't define you as a casual 3 gunner even if you don't shoot a lot of matches, you've invested in equipment to enjoy/be successful at the sport.

I suppose expenses are all relative. I've run one Saiga into the ground and went through several defective ones to get ones that work (see my blog post I linked above). It was easier to deal with this when guns were $350-$450, but the retail on unconverted guns is now $700-$800 and they're really not built to the level of quality that justifies that price. You shouldn't have to spend money to fix factory defects and make a gun work out of the box. I understand spending money to make a gun function better for the sport, but having to spend money to make it run at all is silly; unless you take the sport that seriously. The Saiga I have now that works the best I had to add another gas port to it to make it work at all; Would anyone tolerate that out of a factory new Remington or Mossberg? I don't think so.

The only time I use my Saiga anymore is when I train for Ironman or at Ironman. The shorter courses of fire I find at the local matches (and even if they are longer the shooting areas are spaced to give people room to reload make it less of an advantage, and its easier to shoot in Tac Scope or Tac Limited and not put miles on a gun that is going to wear out around 10,000 shells.