USPSA BOD Meeting

[ChuckS]

Lucky me, I have several local matches close by. I'll just pass on the Majors. It just takes the FUN out of it. That's all I was there for anyway.

Don't local USPSA matches also have to enforce the same trigger weight rule in 2013 as well? Or is it just that the local matches are less likely to check?

They don't chrono either.

Chrono is not required by rule for a Level 1 or 2 match. I see no exemption in Appendix D for any division based on match level.

ETA: I guess it doesn't matter. If the rule goes into effect, people are going to cheat. Merry Christmas...

Edited December 23, 2011 by ChuckS

[Skydiver]

Wouldn't it have been easier to start a new production division if they are so worried about getting back to iits original intent? Could have called it production stock or something. Just like limited and L-10.

There's always the argument that adding a new division dilutes the competition... But that was the other long thread.

[Supermoto]

My viewpoint was that the goal had been clarified by the board in 2009 with the standard specifically and explicitly being "suitable for carry", and that this was an implementation detail. In fact, the wording of that particular document was the deciding factor in my vote, with my reasoning being: Given the stated policy and goal of Production, is a sub 3lb trigger suitable and acceptable for carry and generally provided on out of the box for carry guns? If yes, allowable; if not no. So I didn't regard this as a change in direction, but an implementation of an already published and agreed policy.

Prior to the document of March 7, 2009, there was some ambiguity as to exactly what niche production should fill - was it intended to be non-single action guns customized for competition; guns out of the box with no changes whatsoever, or somewhere in between. The magic words in that document that clarified the direction were "the desire to have the Division remain viable for typical carry-suitable guns."

What I am hearing now is people on this forum advocating use of guns in production that are absolutely unacceptable for carry purposes by virtually all published training standards. Even the big manufacturer that sells guns with trigger pulls in the claimed (emphasis on claimed) 3lb range does so only on competition models, and won't even sell civilians the 3lb part for fear it will end up on a carry weapon. Treating guns unsuitable for carry as suitable for production would be a marked departure from the explicitly stated goal for production.

A sub 3lb trigger is just a unsuitable for carry as a glock 34 or a DOH holster. So why is the trigger the only item that needs to be regulated?

The ruling doesn't open the division up to anyone that was not able to currently compete, but it pushes out those who already do

[Lee King]

I have seen a series of AD's in the last year where someone almost shot themselves in the foot. There have been 2 incidences in this area where someone did shoot themselves in the leg. 2 ADs that happened locally were M&Ps with the 2# kit that removes almost all of the travel and reset WITHOUT a safety. One of the ADs happened in the holster. Not sure about the people who actually got hurt (different club).

I don't know if the trigger pull rule would help with this or not. But as an MD, I am seriously concerned about someone getting hurt.

[Flexmoney]

The characterization of a sub 2.5lb trigger as being unsuitable for a carry [PRACTICAL] gun as "my opinion" shows a misunderstanding of the prevailing standards for duty and defensive weapons [PRACTICAL]. It may be "my opinion", but it is a very widely held one.

Fixed it.

USPSA

If we honestly think that, then it really applies to all the divisions, except for Open..,right?

[wgnoyes]

Do you think that USPSA need a IDPA division? IDPA does not restrict trigger weight and they are the ones who try to make their sport "real world."

This is what I can not understand, why is make putting on a match harder and making participant compliance harder a good thing for anyone?

I don't understand it either. I also don't understand why they voted to approve a rule when they haven't a clue on how to implement it.

...

Same way as when they make rules changes to create a new division or otherwise affect scoring profoundly, and then fail to provide software support in the scoring program to beleaguered stats officers for months or years thereafter.

[carter300]

I think gun enthusiasts are tinkerers, always looking for the best; whats going to get them better. Newbie uspsa shooters want the same darn thing, i think a lot of them will initially pass over production and play elsewhere, but after a year or so, the new shooters will be bonker over looking to get a springer or Canyon Creek Ultimate Production Legal trigger".

As I started out, stock trigger. Only sights aftermarket (night sights with tridum inserts to boot), shot that way for a year. Got hooked, then went for the mods. Purchased a 5in XD, to use striclty for this sport.

If a newbie wants to start this sport they can do so with the production rules as they are now, no changes needed. So do we need restrictions like this.

[lugnut]

WOW. I must be the only one that has a 3# + trigger in my Glock- no wonder I can't win! LOL. Actually I am surprised at how many people are annoyed at this. I will agree that it may be a challenge to accurately/consistently measure the pull and that alone is a good reason to reconsider the rule IMO.

There are plenty of current rules on the Production guns that could be considered consistent with keeping the division an out of the box type division. Like- gun position, no race holsters/mags, heck we can't even have grip tape on the slide... so I don't' see inconsistencies with the new ruling. I'm quite sure that one of the reasons they allow internal mods at all is that it would be a pain in the balls to check all the gun in the first place!

I am VERY surprised at all the people that say they will not compete in Production if this rule passes though... that is really surprising to me. But I DO 100% believe that a lighter trigger DOES give you a competitive advantage, those that argue otherwise are usually GMs that have mastered their manipulation of the trigger to the level that us mere mortals just aren't doing yet.

So for now anyway- I'm ok with the rule... with the stipulation that it is something that can be measured consistently and safely.

One last thing- if the trigger is under 3#s... do I now shoot Open???

Edited December 23, 2011 by lugnut

[vluc]

I have seen a series of AD's in the last year where someone almost shot themselves in the foot. There have been 2 incidences in this area where someone did shoot themselves in the leg. 2 ADs that happened locally were M&Ps with the 2# kit that removes almost all of the travel and reset WITHOUT a safety. One of the ADs happened in the holster. Not sure about the people who actually got hurt (different club).

I don't know if the trigger pull rule would help with this or not. But as an MD, I am seriously concerned about someone getting hurt.

A legitimate concern, but we've not heard that this was the reason behind the decision. Again, if safety was the reason, a sub 3 trigger is sub 3 on any Division pistol. How do you highlight that a production pistol is unsafe at sub 3 but an Open one is not?

If Rob's comments that they see production as "carry ready", then a lot more than a trigger needs to be looked at, in which case they may as well start over rather than inflict this ongoing "thousand cuts" every few years. This is a boiling frog moment.

[Gary Stevens]

First point: I carry a 1911 with a 2 lb trigger every day working or not working. If I shoot someone the issue will be was I justified in doing so, not the weight of my trigger. This only comes up when someone calaims "it just went off".

Second point: During the discussion on the trigger weight there was a view that new shooters will not come into Production because of light triggers on other shooters guns, or that they will leave Production when they find out that other shooters have lighter triggers than they have. When I asked for a verified example of this, I received silence.

Third point: I recently talked to a new shooter, who based on his gun (Glock) would probably shoot Production. One of the first things he asked was about getting a trigger job. When I told him he didn't need one to compete in Production, he said he was asking because he wanted one and knew that we would know who could do a good job. This matches my experience that most shooters want a good trigger on guns they shoot.

Gary

[Lee King]

Again, if safety was the reason, a sub 3 trigger is sub 3 on any Division pistol. How do you highlight that a production pistol is unsafe at sub 3 but an Open one is not?

Agreed the "trigger pull" rule may not be the best way to deal with this and certainly you can run an Open or Limited version of a DAO gun. Perhaps this falls under "disabling a safety feature".

[glefos]

I didn't know you had to have a classification in every division to be on the BOD...Can you point me to where that requirement is written?

Apparently reading comprehension isn't a requirement to post.

I didn't say anything about voting and BOD. I was refering to members commenting in a forum about a division they don't even shoot. Speaking of which, I just noticed TYF29266 doesn't have a single Production classifier either.

[Strick]

But I DO 100% believe that a lighter trigger DOES give you a competitive advantage, those that argue otherwise are usually GMs that have mastered their manipulation of the trigger to the level that us mere mortals just aren't doing yet.

So does a lighter trigger give an advantage or not? Saying it is advantage just because a shooter my not be very skilled starts leading down a path to shooting socialism.

[vluc]

WOW. I must be the only one that has a 3# + trigger in my Glock- no wonder I can't win! LOL. Actually I am surprised at how many people are annoyed at this. I will agree that it may be a challenge to accurately/consistently measure the pull and that alone is a good reason to reconsider the rule IMO.

There are plenty of current rules on the Production guns that could be considered consistent with keeping the division an out of the box type division. Like- gun position, no race holsters/mags, heck we can't even have grip tape on the slide... so I don't' see inconsistencies with the new ruling. I'm quite sure that one of the reasons they allow internal mods at all is that it would be a pain in the balls to check all the gun in the first place!

I am VERY surprised at all the people that say they will not compete in Production if this rule passes though... that is really surprising to me. But I DO 100% believe that a lighter trigger DOES give you a competitive advantage, those that argue otherwise are usually GMs that have mastered their manipulation of the trigger to the level that us mere mortals just aren't doing yet.

So for now anyway- I'm ok with the rule... with the stipulation that it is something that can be measured consistently and safely.

One last thing- if the trigger is under 3#s... do I now shoot Open???

I've not measured mine but I am probably around that 3 mark, more under than over. Like many, I went the light trigger route years ago and found that I really don't need it any more, but it did help me in my development to get to this point. Absolutely made it easier, imho, and I think that is a good thing to attract shooters and keep them coming back. Those that are marginally interested at any rate before they have become believers.

Lot's of things in our equipment give us a competitive advantage, much moreso than a trigger.

[jar]

The ruling doesn't open the division up to anyone that was not able to currently compete, but it pushes out those who already do

Agree 100%. In fact it'll also 'gotcha' some new shooters who already have trigger work done. What problem was this supposed to solve? Has anyone complained to their AD about this supposed problem?

If the intent is preventing a time and money equipment race, why does it ban $100 trigger kits in $500 striker guns that take 15 minutes to install, but do nothing to $3000 custom CZs?

That said, arguing about the rule is secondary. The thing I'm pissed off about is that that was dumped on the membership with no warning or solicitation of comments from production shooters. Doing it in the lame duck period is also pretty bogus.

ETA: Changing it now and figuring out how to apply it later is ridiculous too.

Edited December 23, 2011 by jar

[driver8M3]

Second point: During the discussion on the trigger weight there was a view that new shooters will not come into Production because of light triggers on other shooters guns, or that they will leave Production when they find out that other shooters have lighter triggers than they have. When I asked for a verified example of this, I received silence.

Gary

now they just need to solve the problem of those same imaginary shooters not coming into production (or leaving it) because some guns have very light triggers for all shots after the first one..

[lugnut]

But I DO 100% believe that a lighter trigger DOES give you a competitive advantage, those that argue otherwise are usually GMs that have mastered their manipulation of the trigger to the level that us mere mortals just aren't doing yet.

So does a lighter trigger give an advantage or not? Saying it is advantage just because a shooter my not be very skilled starts leading down a path to shooting socialism.

Huh??? I can't follow your logic. I was saying that YES I think a lighter trigger gives an advantage to shooters- the advantage a lighter trigger gives may be less significant at the highest level of shooters. Socialism???? I was making an observation.. plain and simple in my eyes.

Edited December 23, 2011 by lugnut

[vluc]

So does a lighter trigger give an advantage or not? Saying it is advantage just because a shooter my not be very skilled starts leading down a path to shooting socialism.

All triggers are equal, some are just more equal than others.

[Flexmoney]

I didn't know you had to have a classification in every division to be on the BOD...Can you point me to where that requirement is written?

Apparently reading comprehension isn't a requirement to post.

I didn't say anything about voting and BOD. I was refering to members commenting in a forum about a division they don't even shoot. Speaking of which, I just noticed TYF29266 doesn't have a single Production classifier either.

You can stop that right now. We don't do personal call-outs on THIS forum. If you can't make a discussion point without them, push away from the keyboard for a few. - Admin.

[Strick]

So does a lighter trigger give an advantage or not? Saying it is advantage just because a shooter my not be very skilled starts leading down a path to shooting socialism.

All triggers are equal, some are just more equal than others.

All triggers are equal, some shooters are just more equal than others. Trigger weight will never change that.

[driver8M3]

Second point: During the discussion on the trigger weight there was a view that new shooters will not come into Production because of light triggers on other shooters guns, or that they will leave Production when they find out that other shooters have lighter triggers than they have. When I asked for a verified example of this, I received silence.

Gary

oh, and where are these imaginary shooters going when they leave production because of light triggers? limited? L10? Open? Single Stack? IDPA? nope...wouldn't they also fear the light triggers there????

they must be going to revolver. and i guess the fact that these people are purely imaginary explains why production is still typically 5-10 times the size of revo.

[Skydiver]

One last thing- if the trigger is under 3#s... do I now shoot Open???

Yes, you get bumped to Open. Not only that, but you get to shoot Open Minor even if you swap ammo. (See the second to last special condition in Appendix D4.)

[vluc]

So does a lighter trigger give an advantage or not? Saying it is advantage just because a shooter my not be very skilled starts leading down a path to shooting socialism.

All triggers are equal, some are just more equal than others.

All triggers are equal, some shooters are just more equal than others. Trigger weight will never change that.

True, but the socialism comment was too good to pass up!

[vluc]

One last thing- if the trigger is under 3#s... do I now shoot Open???

Yes, you get bumped to Open. Not only that, but you get to shoot Open Minor even if you swap ammo. (See the second to last special condition in Appendix D4.)

Now this is an issue worthy of the BOD's time, the bump to open.

[jar]

BOD member - Production Classifiers on Record

Pres - 0

A1 - dozens - voted against

A2 - 0

A3 - 4 (a single special from 2007)

A4 - dozens

A5 - dozens - voted against

A6 - 0

A7 - 0

A8 - 1 - not mentioned in roll call

Phil Strader is the only BoD member who actually shoots production that voted for this. Did any of the other BoD members talk to any production shooters to see if they wanted this?