Division 'modification' discussion

[ima45dv8]

Keep a collection of hi cap mags in a safety deposit box across the border to use while out of state? Should be legal as long as you don't import them.

Ok.

Even though you live in a non-restrictive state, I'm pretty sure your heart is in the right place. So go and buy a suitable quantity of hi-cap mags and arrange to have them secreted away in a bank in GA for those times you come here to shoot. Whether you can legally own them in SC (or GA) is irrelevant. This is an exercise in freedom!

You don't shoot here? Aw, what the hell. It ain't THAT expensive is it? New mags plus the monthly fees at the bank can't be that much. Do it. You're making a statement, after all.

I'm sure you'll also be sure to arrange your travel plans to be able to access your safety deposit box when that bank is open for business. No worries.

Wow. I just read back over this and you know what? It doesn't sound like such a good idea.

[BritinUSA]

My 2 cents; Apart from the change from 10 to 15 rounds for Production (which just brings us in-line with IPSC, at least in one regard). Any significant changes to divisions should have one overriding goal, and that is increasing membership.

There is one demographic that USPSA is not getting any significant numbers in, and that is women. More than 50% of the population I suspect that their numbers in USPSA are less than 5%.

Find out what women want to shoot and promote the living daylights out of the women that we have, promote USPSA in women's magazines and then we may see some more growth...

[Skydiver]

My 2 cents; Apart from the change from 10 to 15 rounds for Production (which just brings us in-line with IPSC, at least in one regard). Any significant changes to divisions should have one overriding goal, and that is increasing membership.

There is one demographic that USPSA is not getting any significant numbers in, and that is women. More than 50% of the population I suspect that their numbers in USPSA are less than 5%.

Find out what women want to shoot and promote the living daylights out of the women that we have, promote USPSA in women's magazines and then we may see some more growth...

That maybe an interesting question to ask in an exit interview or post camp questionnaire for Babes With Bullets. Do the current divisions provide a fun challenge or is there something else they prefer?

[Maksim]

My wifey wants to shoot a production like gun with some sort of optic, ie delta point. That is what I am doing for her on an M&P. We do live in ban state... so no STI/SVI with big stick for her.

Modified (IPSC) or Open - 10 would be ideal as per her.

[Chills1994]

My 2 cents; Apart from the change from 10 to 15 rounds for Production (which just brings us in-line with IPSC, at least in one regard). Any significant changes to divisions should have one overriding goal, and that is increasing membership.

There is one demographic that USPSA is not getting any significant numbers in, and that is women. More than 50% of the population I suspect that their numbers in USPSA are less than 5%.

Find out what women want to shoot and promote the living daylights out of the women that we have, promote USPSA in women's magazines and then we may see some more growth...

I'm gonna catch a ton of flak for this, buttttt.....

Why are you on this pro-women "kick"?

[badchad]

Ill answer it for him and you'll like the first part of this post. Of the 200 some shooter at nationals (im not bothering to look up any info here, just winging numbers around) there are probably 0 shooters that would have been effected by the proposed 15 round change. Happy yet?

Yes, and zero is what I would guess the number is too. And this includes Jim Norman's large caliber Sig and XD pistols that in theory he maybe could shoot at Nationals, but nobody does anymore and he certainly didn't since he hasn't shot a USPSA Production match since 2008.

Now, lets talk about the average shooter for a quick second. Ill even give you 2. I own 2 guns that can be used in Production. One is an XD and the other is a Glock. Both are larger calibers and not condusive to being "Production ideal", but if I wanted to shoot Production, i could b/c....wait for it....Its what i own! Thats that the division is all abot right? letting shooters get out and play without buying a ton of new stuff or a new gun? A buddy of mine that I got into this sport last year is the same way. He owns a 45 caliber XD. its his only handgun and he likes it. Its what he has. 15 rounds wouldnt let him be competitive, nor would it let me.

And you still could shoot your .45s in Production with a 15 round maximum capacity. You would be at some disadvantage, but you already are. If either of you wanted to be truly competitive in Production division, as opposed to shooting for fun or shooting what you got till you learn the sport and see if you like it, you would buy new guns. That's what virtually everyone who cares about the competition aspect of the sport does. What you are doing with the rule as is, is making your buddy buy extra mags and pouches that he later won't need, and likely won't fit when he inevitably switches to a more competitive platform, not to mention ammo costs.

The numbers at nationals are meaningless for this discussion. That is what Mark was trying to get through to you last year and again now.

No, a large part of the argument is that so many guns that are perfectly competitive now will be made obsolete with a change in mag capaciy, when the reality is that none of the guns that are really competitive would be affected at all. Almost everyone shoots a high cap 9mm, an insignificant minority shoot a .40 but all those guys are using guns that hold 15 rounds these days, and nobody that's trying to win shoots a .45, not in the last several years.

The 15 round is a fix for a non-existant problem. It is mostly given by those who dont want to reload as much. Its part of the game!!! If you dont like reloading, then load up your mags and shoot Limited. If you want to learn how to handle your gun and how to manipulate it well, as well as learn how to break down stages a little differently than the "hose'em as you see'em" then download the mags to 10 rounds and have a good time in Production.

Well one problem is that Production is the division that is supposed to cater to beginners who 1) often show up to their first match with 3 magazines and 2 pouches and are forced to shoot Limited during their learning phase, and 2) even if they have extra magazines and pouches, are faced with 8 shot arrays with multiple mini popper and Texas stars that just don't seem that inviting with only 10 rounds in a magazine and therefore choose to shoot Limited. Thus Production as it is, IMO, is not near as inviting to the new shooter as it would be with a 15 capacity. For myself, I've shot some Production IPSC matches and I thought it was more fun, more true to the capability of the firearm, and gave more opportunity to shoot arrays on the move rather than post up shoot, load, post up shoot ad nauseam that you often get with a 10 round capacity limit. Plus a 15 round capacity would still have you loading on most stages so the ability to reload and manipulate your firearm would not become a lost skill. But none of this is news, we've talked about all these and other issues before, and you naysayers act like you never heard it.

[lcs]

I agree 100% with badchad, not that anyone cares what I think. It is all about getting more people shooting our sport and shooting cheaper. There are ways to compromise and make most people happy. It just takes a little work.

[LPatterson]

If we as a shooting community start fighting over which guns should or should not be shot or which divisions should not be allowed then we are playing into the hands of the people who want to take those guns away from us. A great man once said "United we stand divided we fall". To me it appears that too many people are fighting to eliminate growth because they are worried that there won't be anyone in their division to beat. Sorry that is life, learn to live with it. I still spend way too much money every year on shooting expenses trying to get better, but it is not solely to beat soneone else (well there is one person). To me it is more like golf (broke 90 a couple of times), it is the thrill of doing the best that you can every time you go out. If I screw up it is not the end of the world (like when I was skydiving). Why are we as a people (society) someone else being able to something a different way.

Down off my soap box. I am beginning to understand why Vince Pinto left this forum.

[mhop]

My 2 cents; Apart from the change from 10 to 15 rounds for Production (which just brings us in-line with IPSC, at least in one regard). Any significant changes to divisions should have one overriding goal, and that is increasing membership.

There is one demographic that USPSA is not getting any significant numbers in, and that is women. More than 50% of the population I suspect that their numbers in USPSA are less than 5%.

Find out what women want to shoot and promote the living daylights out of the women that we have, promote USPSA in women's magazines and then we may see some more growth...

We all know you have a issue with the way we treat women in this sport. We give them their own awards in each division even when they dont meet the requirements (i.e. 2011 revolver nationals). We recognize it more so than senior, super senior, military, and Law enforcement which in the rule book are all suspossed to be equal in awards. So how much more should we bend over to a insuffecient catagory then we already do. They also have their own section in Front sight but we never see numbers increase. Thanks

[lugnut]

And you still could shoot your .45s in Production with a 15 round maximum capacity. You would be at some disadvantage, but you already are. If either of you wanted to be truly competitive in Production division, as opposed to shooting for fun or shooting what you got till you learn the sport and see if you like it, you would buy new guns. That's what virtually everyone who cares about the competition aspect of the sport does. What you are doing with the rule as is, is making your buddy buy extra mags and pouches that he later won't need, and likely won't fit when he inevitably switches to a more competitive platform, not to mention ammo costs.

Well one problem is that Production is the division that is supposed to cater to beginners who 1) often show up to their first match with 3 magazines and 2 pouches and are forced to shoot Limited during their learning phase, and 2) even if they have extra magazines and pouches, are faced with 8 shot arrays with multiple mini popper and Texas stars that just don't seem that inviting with only 10 rounds in a magazine and therefore choose to shoot Limited. Thus Production as it is, IMO, is not near as inviting to the new shooter as it would be with a 15 capacity. For myself, I've shot some Production IPSC matches and I thought it was more fun, more true to the capability of the firearm, and gave more opportunity to shoot arrays on the move rather than post up shoot, load, post up shoot ad nauseam that you often get with a 10 round capacity limit. Plus a 15 round capacity would still have you loading on most stages so the ability to reload and manipulate your firearm would not become a lost skill. But none of this is news, we've talked about all these and other issues before, and you naysayers act like you never heard it.

Seems like a you are saying conflicting things... you are saying that someone could shoot his/her 45 in production but at some point, like most people that really care about shooting sports, will just buy more stuff.... but having a new shooter start in production with his/her std mags isn't reasonable?? Even though they can buy more stuff is they get serious?

In both cases- they won't be competitive... but you don't need to be competitive to get hooked to the point that you go all in and get new stuff! Let's face it- if we're only talking about getting new people in the sport- USPSA has a place for almost anyone today.

Now am I biased? Yeah- because there are still a ton of people that are already COMMITTED to production in states that have issues with std cap mags... does USPSA want to alienate these people so we can maybe get some more noobs? Should USPSA cater to the crappy states that still have bans? Not my call but it shouldn't be ignored IMO. Instead of USPSA pissing on us poor fools, I'm glad they have the 10 round limits on Production.

And like I said before as well... 15 is just as arbitrary as 10 or 9 or 11 for that matter so what's the difference?

My 2 cents.

Edited December 7, 2011 by lugnut

[Jim Norman]

The poster is correct in that I have not shot a production match in a number of years. Funny think is I was working on moving up one particular division and i have accomplished that goal. Now I will need to move all the other division up so that the percentages match the classifications. So, next week at a special classifier I will probably be shooting Production or Revolver, Maybe Open. Not sure yet.

However that is a drift to the thread. If all I ever shoot was Limited, and it is my favorite division, that does not blind me to the other divisions. As a MD, CRO and Club President I feel I am duty bound to support ALL divisions and ALL shooters. My original point that so many seem to be missing here is to open the sport to more shooters and not diminish any current division. More competitions, not less is my goal.

As to being competitive, that is all about the individual. We have people that come out to see their friends, have a good time and shoot, they care only about that, winning a division or even a class matters not at all to them. We also have people that are so "A" that they are nearly unbearable. As for being competitive with other than a 9mm, within a 10 round division it make NO difference. My XD is a great gun for Production, but it is not an M so it tops out at 12 rounds. I don't know what the 9mm capacity is, but it may not be 15. As for others, many people shoot in Glock Matches. Many of those people do so with models that may not be considered competitive by all the GM wanna-bes, but it is THE GUN that they own. If we move to 15 rounds we toss them out. We have a shooter or two that shoots a G26 (9mm) that only holds 10 rounds and he is competitive, why? "Beware the man that only has one gun, he just may be pretty damned good with it"

[SJ]

Magazine capacity of all divisions is to be officially capped at the maximum legal magazine capacity for new magazines in the jurisdiction in which the match is being held (NOTE: If a division limit is explicitly stated already, then the smaller of the two limits takes precedent).

That would remove the need to create any NEW divisions, and would level the playing field in states unfortunate enough to have magazine restrictions. Realistically its not fair that Open shooters in California who may have been minors when the mag cap law was enacted have to compete against people who have magazines stored up from years prior that are high cap. The same rule also puts strain on people to stick with a particular gun that they had back then rather than upgrade because they might not have high cap mags for the new gun they'd like to shoot.

I was about to raise this idea, I like it. No need for L10 at all, or the 10-round limit on Production. To me getting rid of L10 and 10-round limits would be freeing and simplifying the rest of USPSA, the mag capacity limits would now be the exception (that we tolerate) rather than a recognized division (that implies acceptance).

That only works for competitions in state. What happens when the CA resident decides to shoot his Area match in AZ or Nats in Vegas?

Works the same as it does now. Lucky people with grandfathered mags load only 10 rounds in state, and use their normal-cap mags out of state. Unlucky people who have only 10-rounders in state have to figure out something, they can just use their 10s or do some simple planning to get normal-caps if they want to be really competative with the mainstream competition.

SJ, an average club shooter shooting a near-stock G22 in Limited, the way it was intended

[lcs]

The poster is correct in that I have not shot a production match in a number of years. Funny think is I was working on moving up one particular division and i have accomplished that goal. Now I will need to move all the other division up so that the percentages match the classifications. So, next week at a special classifier I will probably be shooting Production or Revolver, Maybe Open. Not sure yet.

However that is a drift to the thread. If all I ever shoot was Limited, and it is my favorite division, that does not blind me to the other divisions. As a MD, CRO and Club President I feel I am duty bound to support ALL divisions and ALL shooters. My original point that so many seem to be missing here is to open the sport to more shooters and not diminish any current division. More competitions, not less is my goal.

As to being competitive, that is all about the individual. We have people that come out to see their friends, have a good time and shoot, they care only about that, winning a division or even a class matters not at all to them. We also have people that are so "A" that they are nearly unbearable. As for being competitive with other than a 9mm, within a 10 round division it make NO difference. My XD is a great gun for Production, but it is not an M so it tops out at 12 rounds. I don't know what the 9mm capacity is, but it may not be 15. As for others, many people shoot in Glock Matches. Many of those people do so with models that may not be considered competitive by all the GM wanna-bes, but it is THE GUN that they own. If we move to 15 rounds we toss them out. We have a shooter or two that shoots a G26 (9mm) that only holds 10 rounds and he is competitive, why? "Beware the man that only has one gun, he just may be pretty damned good with it"

Why and others with the same opinion as you, so locked into "you have to change production to X round count" is the only answer! and what the heck does "many people shoot in Glock matches" have to do with USPSA.

Must be the old "Resistance to Change" syndrome.

[Schutzenmeister]

Why do we need to grow USPSA?

Does something magical happen when we hit 25,000 members?

30,000?

Because, in case you haven't been to a Nationals lately, a lot of our members, in particular RO's, are freaking old (Yes I'm calling you out Carraher!) Members come, they leave. Some stay for a couple matches, some stay a lifetime. But unless we're continually bringing in new members we're going to fade away. Look at NRA Action Pistol and the Bianchi Cup and tell me they don't need more members.

I'll admit to being "freaking," but "old?" That's below the belt, Chuck!

[Schutzenmeister]

The only change that revolver division needs is removing the round count restrictions. Let the chrono say whether you are shooting major or minor. If I can take the pounding of major rounds out of a 627, then I should be scored as major. Isn't that what DVC is all about?

Agreed ... to a point. Remember, you're talking about Revolver at the moment. That's currently the equal of "Limited-6" in a game that states "no more than 8 rounds from a location or view." [Paraphrased.] Allow a wheel gunner to go to 8 without a trade-off and suddenly 625's will be obsolete and 627's will rule. By specifying that a revolver whose capacity is greater than 6 rounds may shoot no more than minor you do not have a significant impact on the existing collection of 625's, but you do encourage those with 627's to shoot them, too. If someone WANTS to use a 627 to gain an advantage in fewer reloads, they do it knowing they have to be relatively more accurate to make up for shots other than "A's."

[Chuck Anderson]

Why and others with the same opinion as you, so locked into "you have to change production to X round count" is the only answer! and what the heck does "many people shoot in Glock matches" have to do with USPSA.

Must be the old "Resistance to Change" syndrome.

Not understanding this. Are you suggesting Production be opened to the capacity of the gun? Most people suggesting change have at least realized that even IPSC had to limit it to 15 to deal with the equipment race their Division became. My opinion is that there is no gain changing it from a 10 round division. Lots of people have invested in equipment that works with a 10 round limit. Why make them change? What benefit is there? Other than having new folks not need to buy a couple magazines? Really?

As far as the reference Jim made to Glock matches. GSSF has about 80,000 members. Their Annual Glock shoot at Conyers this year had over 1000 entries. The guns used, with a few exceptions are all Production Legal and the vast majority would be pretty darn competetive with a 10 round limit, which BTW, GSSF has. I use GSSF as a way to get new folks, nervous about USPSA or even Steel to come out and start shooting competition. If Steel Challenge is the gateway drug to USPSA I look at GSSF as the gateway to both. I would very much like to have a Division that the 80K GSSF members, and even those IDPA folks, could come shoot easily.

Chad, you likely won't get a valid answer to your question about this years Nationals, or for that matter any Nationals. The data captured isn't specific enough to identify the number of guns that wouldn't have a 15 round capacity. Might show caliber and model, but that data isn't captured together.

[lcs]

Why and others with the same opinion as you, so locked into "you have to change production to X round count" is the only answer! and what the heck does "many people shoot in Glock matches" have to do with USPSA.

Must be the old "Resistance to Change" syndrome.

Not understanding this. Are you suggesting Production be opened to the capacity of the gun? Most people suggesting change have at least realized that even IPSC had to limit it to 15 to deal with the equipment race their Division became. My opinion is that there is no gain changing it from a 10 round division. Lots of people have invested in equipment that works with a 10 round limit. Why make them change? What benefit is there? Other than having new folks not need to buy a couple magazines? Really?

As far as the reference Jim made to Glock matches. GSSF has about 80,000 members. Their Annual Glock shoot at Conyers this year had over 1000 entries. The guns used, with a few exceptions are all Production Legal and the vast majority would be pretty darn competetive with a 10 round limit, which BTW, GSSF has. I use GSSF as a way to get new folks, nervous about USPSA or even Steel to come out and start shooting competition. If Steel Challenge is the gateway drug to USPSA I look at GSSF as the gateway to both. I would very much like to have a Division that the 80K GSSF members, and even those IDPA folks, could come shoot easily.

Chad, you likely won't get a valid answer to your question about this years Nationals, or for that matter any Nationals. The data captured isn't specific enough to identify the number of guns that wouldn't have a 15 round capacity. Might show caliber and model, but that data isn't captured together.

I know from previous discussion on the 10 round mag restriction to Production, it was always "Get rid of the 10 restriction and make it 15 or unlimited". I understand and agree with all the objections to changing production in that manner. By those same previous discussions, there was and is a lot of support to get rid to the 10 round restriction.

I believe a viable option is to create Prod-10 (exact same rules as production). Now you change Production to whatever mag count makes sense. Same rules.

I see new shooter after new shooter show up at our local matches with a 9mm and the mags that came with the gun. They are told " Because you don't have enough mags and you can't load them past ten in Production --You have to shoot Limited Minor! " Ok, says new shooter until they find out the scoring system and find out what a disadvantage it is. Some go out and buy more equipment, and some don't come back.

As far as the Glock reference. I understand the underlying 80,000 GSSF members. It is a mitigating fact, but not a reason to associate with 10 rounds or not.

[mhop]

GSSF has about 80,000 members.

how many would USPSA have if membership was required to shoot a match?

[lugnut]

[

I see new shooter after new shooter show up at our local matches with a 9mm and the mags that came with the gun. They are told " Because you don't have enough mags and you can't load them past ten in Production --You have to shoot Limited Minor! " Ok, says new shooter until they find out the scoring system and find out what a disadvantage it is. Some go out and buy more equipment, and some don't come back.

I'd bet these people wouldn't be competitive in Production even if they loaded to 15.. sorry but I really hate hearing this stuff. If they are too weak to come back for this reason they wouldn't come back regardless. I've seen people that didn't have proper equipment and others lent them gear and helped them out. They still usually stink it up pretty bad sometimes too. The ones that come back are the ones that step up and help out even if they aren't good initially or don't have the "right" gear. The regulars are always willing to loan out stuff and help them to fit in regardless of how they do. The ones that don't come back won't come back for a number of reasons... gear being that least of the issues.

[lcs]

[

I see new shooter after new shooter show up at our local matches with a 9mm and the mags that came with the gun. They are told " Because you don't have enough mags and you can't load them past ten in Production --You have to shoot Limited Minor! " Ok, says new shooter until they find out the scoring system and find out what a disadvantage it is. Some go out and buy more equipment, and some don't come back.

I'd bet these people wouldn't be competitive in Production even if they loaded to 15.. sorry but I really hate hearing this stuff. If they are too weak to come back for this reason they wouldn't come back regardless. I've seen people that didn't have proper equipment and others lent them gear and helped them out. They still usually stink it up pretty bad sometimes too. The ones that come back are the ones that step up and help out even if they aren't good initially or don't have the "right" gear. The regulars are always willing to loan out stuff and help them to fit in regardless of how they do. The ones that don't come back won't come back for a number of reasons... gear being that least of the issues.

You missed my point. I am not the first person to make that observation either(about new shooters).

[lugnut]

[

I see new shooter after new shooter show up at our local matches with a 9mm and the mags that came with the gun. They are told " Because you don't have enough mags and you can't load them past ten in Production --You have to shoot Limited Minor! " Ok, says new shooter until they find out the scoring system and find out what a disadvantage it is. Some go out and buy more equipment, and some don't come back.

I'd bet these people wouldn't be competitive in Production even if they loaded to 15.. sorry but I really hate hearing this stuff. If they are too weak to come back for this reason they wouldn't come back regardless. I've seen people that didn't have proper equipment and others lent them gear and helped them out. They still usually stink it up pretty bad sometimes too. The ones that come back are the ones that step up and help out even if they aren't good initially or don't have the "right" gear. The regulars are always willing to loan out stuff and help them to fit in regardless of how they do. The ones that don't come back won't come back for a number of reasons... gear being that least of the issues.

You missed my point. I am not the first person to make that observation either(about new shooters).

I guess I did.

[Maksim]

The flip side of this thing., for those claiming Production must go 15, did a newb ever come to a match, find out they need to shoot limited minor, become so pissed off that they did not come back to another uspsa match because they did not have 2 extra mags for production?

I would venture to guess that most people get started with USPSA by being introduced by their friends. That is how it has been with the 30 or so I introduced, and how I was led into uspsa. The first thing my friends did was tell me what equipment I needed for what I wanted to shoot, and then... if I did not have it, they let me use their gear.

In fact, on njgf, we usually just tell people bring what you got, don't buy anything for your first match, we will lend you stuff, and you figure out what you like and don't like.

So if you want to talk about introducing new people to the sport, why not consider at the club level, or USPSA subsidy, or member donation driven, loaner gear, such as belts, mag pouches, holsters, etc.

For instance, at our local club, we have a very successful CMP Garand match. For $40 or could be $20, they give you all the loaner gear (shooting jacket, shooting mat, range scope, a M1 Garand and ammo). So all you do is show up and shoot.

At any match I typically have a backup gun, and a separate rig for another division, just in case. Just last match, a friend of mine brought is brother, lent him my SS rig, etc. So to attract new people, why not have loaner equipment for them to use.... (instead of messing with a highly successful division with the justification it might be easier for a new person with 3 mags)

[beltjones]

I don't think the argument that new shooters would have to buy fewer magazines if the Production limit were increased to 15 holds any water.

When someone takes up racquetball they have to buy a bunch of gear. Ditto golf. Ditto rock climbing. Ditto pretty much every single sport known to man. All we ask new shooters to do is buy a few magazines for a gun they already own. Compared to most sports it's actually pretty economical to get started on an incremental cost basis, so that can't be what keeps people from joining.

When I hear new shooters complain about the cost it's usually in reference to match fees, ammo, and the notion that they have to buy a custom Limited gun right out of the gate.

However, the cost is not the most oft-asserted reason I hear for people not wanting to try the sport. It usually comes down to the fact that they believe it's not tactical at all, and that they have to compete against guys wearing lycra shorts shooting pistols with dots and compensators. If you want to promote the sport, simply raising the Production mag limit to 15 (saving the cost of what, one mag and one pouch?) won't dispel the fact that our sport seems really goofy to people who bought their second Sig P229 .40 on black Friday. Change that perception, and you will see numbers grow more significantly.

And as far as keeping current Production shooters happy, I don't see how going to 15 rounds will improve what is already a smashing success. It will change the dynamics of stage planning here and there, and a few people might have more fun, but obviously a lot of the people who have stuck with Production like it the way it is. Why risk alienating those people by trying to fix what is obviously not broken - especially when the crowd that wants to load more bullets already has two divisions they can jump into?

[Ben Stoeger]

My 2 cents; Apart from the change from 10 to 15 rounds for Production (which just brings us in-line with IPSC, at least in one regard). Any significant changes to divisions should have one overriding goal, and that is increasing membership.

There is one demographic that USPSA is not getting any significant numbers in, and that is women. More than 50% of the population I suspect that their numbers in USPSA are less than 5%.

Find out what women want to shoot and promote the living daylights out of the women that we have, promote USPSA in women's magazines and then we may see some more growth...

I totally disagree on every single point.

I don’t believe that coming into line with IPSC is a positive thing. I don’t think it is a negative thing either. I just plain don’t care about IPSC. USPSA should be about what is good for USPSA.

I don’t believe that increasing membership should be our overriding goal. I think having a sport that is safe fun and fair should be our goal. I would like it if USPSA were bigger and more popular… but making USPSA bigger is not as important as making USPSA better.

I feel that women shooters currently get a disproportionate amount of recognition and attention relative to their actual participation level in the sport. MHOP made the point earlier and he is entirely correct. The ladies category gets very special attention at nationals. I see no reason to do any more, but I could see pumping the brakes a little bit on promoting ladies category. Perhaps we should treat it the same as the other categories.

[Ben Stoeger]

I don’t really see a point to changing production to 15 rounds.

At the World Shoot when we shot 15 rounds, I really feel it changed the nature of the match. It made it much less difficult than it would have been with only 10 rounds. I was able to shoot extra shots lots of times and not worry about running out of ammunition.

Some people may like 15 rounds better than 10 and others see things differently. I prefer 10.