Division 'modification' discussion

[Chills1994]

It's kinda getting under my skin that it seems like most everybody thinks this:

Production = beginner's division

beginner's division = Production

I tell the new guys at my match who show up with an XD 9mm, or a Glock 17 to just load their mags all the way up and shoot Limited minor.

When a new guy walks up to the line and they have been told they are in production, I can literally see the tension build up in their necks and shoulders. They seem to get all geeked out about when to reload.

IMO, shooting Limited minor eases that tension for them.

[Supermoto]

I don’t really see a point to changing production to 15 rounds.

At the World Shoot when we shot 15 rounds, I really feel it changed the nature of the match. It made it much less difficult than it would have been with only 10 rounds. I was able to shoot extra shots lots of times and not worry about running out of ammunition.

Some people may like 15 rounds better than 10 and others see things differently. I prefer 10.

Wouldn't stage design play a significant part in that as well. 8 shots, move 8 shots doesn't really matter what division you shoot, everyone has to shoot it the same. Lets let production shoot the guns as the were "produced". dump 8 shot, and up the round count to 50. Let uspsa be about shooting and not restrictions, are we suppose to be freestyle?

Edited December 7, 2011 by Supermoto

[Flexmoney]

I agree 100% with badchad, not that anyone cares what I think. It is all about getting more people shooting our sport and shooting cheaper. There are ways to compromise and make most people happy. It just takes a little work.

(below is my personal opinion)

I think what you might be aligning with is Cowboy Action. And, I'm not slighting that a bit. Those are popular shooting events.

A more fundamental question for me is...are we a shooting event...or, are we a competitive shooting event?

What I want out of USPSA is the latter.

I KNOW...from first hand experience...that people want MORE. I watched as a (non- affiliated) match here in Eastern Ohio added more and more (divisions). They went from having competitive events to just having shooting events.

I don't want any more divisions in USPSA. (Steel Challenge...maybe.)

---------------------

I shot my mini Glock 26 in a handful of matches this year. It is a gun I carry. I wanted to run it under match conditions (with the 10 round mags I carry in it). I was able to do so and get a good idea of it's function and performance...in Production division. (after all, we still have PRACTICAL in our name)

I also like to test reloading on the clock....being forced to reload while also opening a door...etc. It's a practical skill set that I think needs tested.

Production works. It is the biggest division in my Section. It is growing. I think it is crazy to mess with it.

We have 2 other divisions that count to 10 rounds.

And, instead of IPSC, I am more concerned with us being on parity with IDPA (also 10 rounds)...so that we can have cross-over shooters (and...we actually DO get them from IDPA...unlike anything else that has ever been mentioned).

So, I am pretty well convinced that 10 rounds in Production is where it's at.

---------------------

Open Revolver... come shoot Steel Challenge, then show me the numbers!!!

--------------------

I've shot with a lot of folks over the years that have shot their G21's in Limited-10. I shoot my Single-stack in Limited-10 from time to time. I've seen plenty of folks show up at matches with their carry G23...which also fits well in L-10.

Every Limited gun fits into Limited-10. (just to stir the pot)

[Ben Stoeger]

I don’t really see a point to changing production to 15 rounds.

At the World Shoot when we shot 15 rounds, I really feel it changed the nature of the match. It made it much less difficult than it would have been with only 10 rounds. I was able to shoot extra shots lots of times and not worry about running out of ammunition.

Some people may like 15 rounds better than 10 and others see things differently. I prefer 10.

Wouldn't stage design play a significant part in that as well. 8 shots, move 8 shots doesn't really matter what division you shoot, everyone has to shoot it the same. Lets let production shoot the guns as the were "produced". dump 8 shot, and up the round count to 50. Let uspsa be about shooting and not restrictions, are we suppose to be freestyle?

Well... USPSA is about shooting, and that is a good thing.

As I said, some people would prefer no restriction, others 15, others 10, others whatever. I really like production the way it is now. I like breaking down stages for 10 rounds and I like not having a bunch extra to shoot steel. The restriction to 10 rounds breeds creativity.

Production is a great division the way it is. No reason to fix what obviously works well.

[Flexmoney]

I see new shooter after new shooter show up at our local matches with a 9mm and the mags that came with the gun. They are told " Because you don't have enough mags and you can't load them past ten in Production --You have to shoot Limited Minor! " Ok, says new shooter until they find out the scoring system and find out what a disadvantage it is. Some go out and buy more equipment, and some don't come back.

Most new shooters opt to load their mags up...regardless. They want to extra ammo to knock down the steel with.

(and, most often they get plenty of offers for loaner gear)

[Schutzenmeister]

[...]

I don’t believe that coming into line with IPSC is a positive thing. I don’t think it is a negative thing either. I just plain don’t care about IPSC. USPSA should be about what is good for USPSA.

[...]

Ben

I almost agree with you ...

I've said this on numerous occasions: Neither USPSA nor IPSC necessarily needs the other to survive. Nevertheless, I do believe EACH is stronger and better if the two do not become unnecessarily divided. I sincerely doubt we'll ever see the day USPSA agrees to dump our rules and use the IPSC book anymore than IPSC dumping its book and using ours. On many issues though, I really wish the gap were getting more narrow rather than more wide.

Just one man's opinion ...

[Flexmoney]

I don't believe that increasing membership should be our overriding goal. I think having a sport that is safe fun and fair should be our goal. I would like it if USPSA were bigger and more popular… but making USPSA bigger is not as important as making USPSA better.

Well said. Use that on the podium next time!

[Schutzenmeister]

It's kinda getting under my skin that it seems like most everybody thinks this:

Production = beginner's division

beginner's division = Production

[...]

Chills

Unless my memory is getting REAL bad (which is a distinct possibility!), I seem to recall the above is pretty much EXACTLY how Production Division was originally marketed. Not sayin' it should be that way now ... not in the least. Nevertheless, I believe that was the original intent.

[lcs]

I don't really see a point to changing production to 15 rounds.

At the World Shoot when we shot 15 rounds, I really feel it changed the nature of the match. It made it much less difficult than it would have been with only 10 rounds. I was able to shoot extra shots lots of times and not worry about running out of ammunition.

Some people may like 15 rounds better than 10 and others see things differently. I prefer 10.

Exactly why I suggested PROD-10 and Production. Even though many such as yourself want to keep the 10 round restriction, there are many who don't.

[Ben Stoeger]

I don't really see a point to changing production to 15 rounds.

At the World Shoot when we shot 15 rounds, I really feel it changed the nature of the match. It made it much less difficult than it would have been with only 10 rounds. I was able to shoot extra shots lots of times and not worry about running out of ammunition.

Some people may like 15 rounds better than 10 and others see things differently. I prefer 10.

Exactly why I suggested PROD-10 and Production. Even though many such as yourself want to keep the 10 round restriction, there are many who don't.

Having 2 divisions in place of the one will dilute the sport. I don't think we need more divisions.

[lcs]

I agree 100% with badchad, not that anyone cares what I think. It is all about getting more people shooting our sport and shooting cheaper. There are ways to compromise and make most people happy. It just takes a little work.

(below is my personal opinion)

I think what you might be aligning with is Cowboy Action. And, I'm not slighting that a bit. Those are popular shooting events.

A more fundamental question for me is...are we a shooting event...or, are we a competitive shooting event?

What I want out of USPSA is the latter.

I KNOW...from first hand experience...that people want MORE. I watched as a (non- affiliated) match here in Eastern Ohio added more and more (divisions). They went from having competitive events to just having shooting events.

I don't want any more divisions in USPSA. (Steel Challenge...maybe.)

---------------------

I shot my mini Glock 26 in a handful of matches this year. It is a gun I carry. I wanted to run it under match conditions (with the 10 round mags I carry in it). I was able to do so and get a good idea of it's function and performance...in Production division. (after all, we still have PRACTICAL in our name)

I also like to test reloading on the clock....being forced to reload while also opening a door...etc. It's a practical skill set that I think needs tested.

Production works. It is the biggest division in my Section. It is growing. I think it is crazy to mess with it.

We have 2 other divisions that count to 10 rounds.

And, instead of IPSC, I am more concerned with us being on parity with IDPA (also 10 rounds)...so that we can have cross-over shooters (and...we actually DO get them from IDPA...unlike anything else that has ever been mentioned).

So, I am pretty well convinced that 10 rounds in Production is where it's at.

---------------------

Open Revolver... come shoot Steel Challenge, then show me the numbers!!!

--------------------

I've shot with a lot of folks over the years that have shot their G21's in Limited-10. I shoot my Single-stack in Limited-10 from time to time. I've seen plenty of folks show up at matches with their carry G23...which also fits well in L-10.

Every Limited gun fits into Limited-10. (just to stir the pot)

Cowboy Action?? that is a far reach--How did you ever come to that conclusion? Never been there done that.

[Ben Stoeger]

I agree 100% with badchad, not that anyone cares what I think. It is all about getting more people shooting our sport and shooting cheaper. There are ways to compromise and make most people happy. It just takes a little work.

(below is my personal opinion)

I think what you might be aligning with is Cowboy Action. And, I'm not slighting that a bit. Those are popular shooting events.

A more fundamental question for me is...are we a shooting event...or, are we a competitive shooting event?

What I want out of USPSA is the latter.

I KNOW...from first hand experience...that people want MORE. I watched as a (non- affiliated) match here in Eastern Ohio added more and more (divisions). They went from having competitive events to just having shooting events.

I don't want any more divisions in USPSA. (Steel Challenge...maybe.)

---------------------

I shot my mini Glock 26 in a handful of matches this year. It is a gun I carry. I wanted to run it under match conditions (with the 10 round mags I carry in it). I was able to do so and get a good idea of it's function and performance...in Production division. (after all, we still have PRACTICAL in our name)

I also like to test reloading on the clock....being forced to reload while also opening a door...etc. It's a practical skill set that I think needs tested.

Production works. It is the biggest division in my Section. It is growing. I think it is crazy to mess with it.

We have 2 other divisions that count to 10 rounds.

And, instead of IPSC, I am more concerned with us being on parity with IDPA (also 10 rounds)...so that we can have cross-over shooters (and...we actually DO get them from IDPA...unlike anything else that has ever been mentioned).

So, I am pretty well convinced that 10 rounds in Production is where it's at.

---------------------

Open Revolver... come shoot Steel Challenge, then show me the numbers!!!

--------------------

I've shot with a lot of folks over the years that have shot their G21's in Limited-10. I shoot my Single-stack in Limited-10 from time to time. I've seen plenty of folks show up at matches with their carry G23...which also fits well in L-10.

Every Limited gun fits into Limited-10. (just to stir the pot)

Cowboy Action?? that is a far reach--How did you ever come to that conclusion? Never been there done that.

Cowboy Action has a division for everybody.

[lcs]

I don't really see a point to changing production to 15 rounds.

At the World Shoot when we shot 15 rounds, I really feel it changed the nature of the match. It made it much less difficult than it would have been with only 10 rounds. I was able to shoot extra shots lots of times and not worry about running out of ammunition.

Some people may like 15 rounds better than 10 and others see things differently. I prefer 10.

Exactly why I suggested PROD-10 and Production. Even though many such as yourself want to keep the 10 round restriction, there are many who don't.

Having 2 divisions in place of the one will dilute the sport. I don't think we need more divisions.

Don't you mean dilute your idea of production. Which is a valid opinion. (just said in discussion mode, not smartas$ mode)

[lcs]

I agree 100% with badchad, not that anyone cares what I think. It is all about getting more people shooting our sport and shooting cheaper. There are ways to compromise and make most people happy. It just takes a little work.

(below is my personal opinion)

I think what you might be aligning with is Cowboy Action. And, I'm not slighting that a bit. Those are popular shooting events.

A more fundamental question for me is...are we a shooting event...or, are we a competitive shooting event?

What I want out of USPSA is the latter.

I KNOW...from first hand experience...that people want MORE. I watched as a (non- affiliated) match here in Eastern Ohio added more and more (divisions). They went from having competitive events to just having shooting events.

I don't want any more divisions in USPSA. (Steel Challenge...maybe.)

---------------------

I shot my mini Glock 26 in a handful of matches this year. It is a gun I carry. I wanted to run it under match conditions (with the 10 round mags I carry in it). I was able to do so and get a good idea of it's function and performance...in Production division. (after all, we still have PRACTICAL in our name)

I also like to test reloading on the clock....being forced to reload while also opening a door...etc. It's a practical skill set that I think needs tested.

Production works. It is the biggest division in my Section. It is growing. I think it is crazy to mess with it.

We have 2 other divisions that count to 10 rounds.

And, instead of IPSC, I am more concerned with us being on parity with IDPA (also 10 rounds)...so that we can have cross-over shooters (and...we actually DO get them from IDPA...unlike anything else that has ever been mentioned).

So, I am pretty well convinced that 10 rounds in Production is where it's at.

---------------------

Open Revolver... come shoot Steel Challenge, then show me the numbers!!!

--------------------

I've shot with a lot of folks over the years that have shot their G21's in Limited-10. I shoot my Single-stack in Limited-10 from time to time. I've seen plenty of folks show up at matches with their carry G23...which also fits well in L-10.

Every Limited gun fits into Limited-10. (just to stir the pot)

Cowboy Action?? that is a far reach--How did you ever come to that conclusion? Never been there done that.

Cowboy Action has a division for everybody.

I learn something new everyday.

[mhop]

Don't you mean dilute your idea of production. Which is a valid opinion. (just said in discussion mode, not smartas$ mode)

no it would dilute the sport in a whole to face the facts there are only a certain number of shooters that win and more divisions mean more disparity among those winners. it would then be like steel challenge where you have a 17 world champions each year.

[Ben Stoeger]

I don't really see a point to changing production to 15 rounds.

At the World Shoot when we shot 15 rounds, I really feel it changed the nature of the match. It made it much less difficult than it would have been with only 10 rounds. I was able to shoot extra shots lots of times and not worry about running out of ammunition.

Some people may like 15 rounds better than 10 and others see things differently. I prefer 10.

Exactly why I suggested PROD-10 and Production. Even though many such as yourself want to keep the 10 round restriction, there are many who don't.

Having 2 divisions in place of the one will dilute the sport. I don't think we need more divisions.

Don't you mean dilute your idea of production. Which is a valid opinion. (just said in discussion mode, not smartas$ mode)

Well... It does both. The more divisions we have the more the talent pool gets diluted. If we had two production divisions, I would prefer to shoot production 10. However, if Dave and Mink and whomever else is shooting the other production division, I would probably shoot that as well. That is because I want to have some great shooters to shoot against.

I think production is good the way it is now. Lots of different guns are competitive and lots of people are shooting it. 10 rounds with minor scoring creates an interesting challenge. I really hope people don’t dick with production.

[Chills1994]

mhop wrote:

....it would then be like steel challenge where you have a 17 world champions each year.

Yeah, I noticed they recognize the IDPA divisions, but they don't force shooters to draw while wearing a cover garment.

That still has me scratching my head.

Do you get STI contigency money if you win one of those IDPA divisions/categories/classes...whatever they call them in SC?

[mhop]

mhop wrote:

....it would then be like steel challenge where you have a 17 world champions each year.

Yeah, I noticed they recognize the IDPA divisions, but they don't force shooters to draw while wearing a cover garment.

That still has me scratching my head.

Do you get STI contigency money if you win one of those IDPA divisions/categories/classes...whatever they call them in SC?

Plus cowboy plus rimfire iron plus rimfire open

[lcs]

I don't really see a point to changing production to 15 rounds.

At the World Shoot when we shot 15 rounds, I really feel it changed the nature of the match. It made it much less difficult than it would have been with only 10 rounds. I was able to shoot extra shots lots of times and not worry about running out of ammunition.

Some people may like 15 rounds better than 10 and others see things differently. I prefer 10.

Exactly why I suggested PROD-10 and Production. Even though many such as yourself want to keep the 10 round restriction, there are many who don't.

Having 2 divisions in place of the one will dilute the sport. I don't think we need more divisions.

Don't you mean dilute your idea of production. Which is a valid opinion. (just said in discussion mode, not smartas$ mode)

Well... It does both. The more divisions we have the more the talent pool gets diluted. If we had two production divisions, I would prefer to shoot production 10. However, if Dave and Mink and whomever else is shooting the other production division, I would probably shoot that as well. That is because I want to have some great shooters to shoot against.

I think production is good the way it is now. Lots of different guns are competitive and lots of people are shooting it. 10 rounds with minor scoring creates an interesting challenge. I really hope people don't dick with production.

Then you would double your fun!

[Ben Stoeger]

I don't really see a point to changing production to 15 rounds.

At the World Shoot when we shot 15 rounds, I really feel it changed the nature of the match. It made it much less difficult than it would have been with only 10 rounds. I was able to shoot extra shots lots of times and not worry about running out of ammunition.

Some people may like 15 rounds better than 10 and others see things differently. I prefer 10.

Exactly why I suggested PROD-10 and Production. Even though many such as yourself want to keep the 10 round restriction, there are many who don't.

Having 2 divisions in place of the one will dilute the sport. I don't think we need more divisions.

Don't you mean dilute your idea of production. Which is a valid opinion. (just said in discussion mode, not smartas$ mode)

Well... It does both. The more divisions we have the more the talent pool gets diluted. If we had two production divisions, I would prefer to shoot production 10. However, if Dave and Mink and whomever else is shooting the other production division, I would probably shoot that as well. That is because I want to have some great shooters to shoot against.

I think production is good the way it is now. Lots of different guns are competitive and lots of people are shooting it. 10 rounds with minor scoring creates an interesting challenge. I really hope people don't dick with production.

Then you would double your fun!

Not really no. I can only shoot one division at a particular match.

[Chills1994]

mhop wrote:

....it would then be like steel challenge where you have a 17 world champions each year.

Yeah, I noticed they recognize the IDPA divisions, but they don't force shooters to draw while wearing a cover garment.

That still has me scratching my head.

Do you get STI contigency money if you win one of those IDPA divisions/categories/classes...whatever they call them in SC?

Plus cowboy plus rimfire iron plus rimfire open

Does anybody make a single action .22LR revolver?

Could I win cowboy rimfire iron?

I hope all the CAS'ers who want to shoot SC at the big match all squad together. I think it would drive me nuts waiting for them to load up between strings.

If you want to shoot production with all your mags loaded all the way up, just shoot Limited minor.

[Jim Norman]

If you want to shoot production with all your mags loaded all the way up, just shoot Limited minor.

This is one of the best answers to the question so far. Also, how did a discussion and why does a discussion about adding two new divisions almost always turn into a discussion trying to change Production?

Why and others with the same opinion as you, so locked into "you have to change production to X round count" is the only answer! and what the heck does "many people shoot in Glock matches" have to do with USPSA.

Must be the old "Resistance to Change" syndrome.

A- I am 'locked in' to NOT, repeat NOT changing the capacity in Production. It is fine at 10 rounds.

B- The comment regarding Glock matches is that there is yet another venue we can possibly exploit to gain members. Glock match shooters in many cases are shooting the Glock that they own. Many of those ate capped at under 15 rounds with production legal mags. We change the rules, we close them out. Right now they are welcome, we need to let them know that. We change the rules and we tell them your gear is NO GOOD here. Spend money of you want to join in with us.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Jim Norman

[DWFAN]

Even if we changed it to 15 rounds, those "locked" out shooters (who are trying to shoot a MAJOR PF gun in a minor division) really wouldnt be. They could shoot limited 10.

That might be the boost that L10 needs.

[Schutzenmeister]

Does anybody make a single action .22LR revolver?

Ask and ye shall receive ...

Ruger Bearcat

[Flexmoney]

Does anybody make a single action .22LR revolver?

Ask and ye shall receive ...

Ruger Bearcat

They also have those in 22MAG...so we'd need a Major and Minor division.