SOs Shooting Sanctioned Match

[Jane]

After our IDPA club match last month, I was sitting talking with our new club MD and with another individual who has a certain amount of input on sanctioned matches.

The other individual rather surprised me by his strong assertion that SOs who shoot a sanctioned match a day before the regular shooters do should be scored as a separate SO match , not scored in with everybody else.

I was a bit tired after the match, so it's possible I somewhat misconstrued some of the things he said. But my recollection is that he used the words, "there's always cheating" - that SOs don't call their buddies on the same infractions for which they'd ding regular shooters, stages may get adjusted on the SO shoot day, etc.

I told him that I've only personally ROed one sanctioned match (a USPSA match). But I've worked scores on a number of sanctioned matches (including 5 IDPA nationals), and have shot with the SOs at those matches. I certainly haven't seen this behavior.

I recall that Ted Murphy and John May didn't shoot their Nationals for score when they were the MDs, but all the other SOs did at sanctioned matches I've attended.

Taking the SOs out of the pool will affect match bumps for both groups, as well as awards.

And I think it would make it a lot more difficult to get qualified SOs willing to work sanctioned matches.

So I'm curious what y'all think.

[Steve Koski]

I'm not sure I'd travel and SO at sanctioned matches if I didn't get scored along side everyone else.

Koski

[Ronnie j]

I'm with Steve , I wouldn't volunteer my time unless I got to play with the other kids.

[twodownzero]

No way. Perhaps those who are not ROs forgot that this is an all-volunteer sport. If there's always cheating, that needs to be dealt with.

[lugnut]

Tell that person I'd be happy to shoot as a competitor and have that person take my place as an SO! Honestly I think that is crap. I've SO'd major matches and recently was MD at a major sanctioned match... if anything it was a disadvantage! I was interrupted time and time again and was running around like a chicken with its head cut off... and this was after a week of set up. We do get a good look at the stages... but any competitor can do that the day before they compete... and not have to work! And no one I've shot with gets freebies!

[Joe4d]

Deal with the cheaters, For USPSA I have never seen this issue.

Not dealing with cheating or differnt scoring but I have stopped shooting at one sanctioned match over the staff/SO issue.

It is a secret squirrel darkness match. Regular shooters are not allowed on the range, and then get 5 to 10 minutes to walk through 10 stages then the lights are turned off.

All fine and dandy, but the staff, SO's, stage builders, all spend hours looking at the stages, as well as shooting "proof" version of those stages the week before. All the staff gets scored in the main match and it shows in the results. Basically if you are not staff you aint got a snowballs chance in Hades.

So as long as the stages arent secret, (which should be banned in all sanctioned matches) and the staff doesnt get practice runs I dont see an issue with staff shooting for score.

[Sac Law Man]

What about your stage designers? Do you put them in their own catagory too? I also wouldnt Volunteer if my scores were not included with the rest of the shooters.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Sac Law Man

[stats]

I have SO'd, MD'd, scored and otherwise been involved in many sanctioned matches, including both national matches. I have never seen any of the SO's giving thier "buddies" a break. At the World match I got a proceedural from a buddie that I don't think I deserved, if anything, I think they look at us closer than the shooters.

I know that Frank Glover does not shoot a match that he is the MD. This is because he is meticulous about his stages and shoots them numerous times to get everything "just so". So he dose not feel that it is fair to shoot the match. Most of the matches that I have worked, the stages are designed, setup then shot for the first time by the SO's. I don't see an advantage here.

I have also heard similar comments, normally but someone that has never SO'd a match. By the time the SO's shoot the match, the have already spend several days setting up, they are hot, tired and just plain wore out. Rarely do they shoot well. As for an advantage of seeing the stages, everyone has that advantage. 2 years ago, I got a proceedural, down 10 and an FTN on a stage that I designed. How do you run by a target that you designed? just plain pooped.

The SO's have a great advantage, they get to show up several days early, work till late at night to set up, normally in not so nice weather, then they get to shoot it without paying the match fee. They do get to pay for gas to drive back and forth to the match each day. they get to stand in the rain, hot sun and other nasty weather and run the shooters, all the while hollering "TAPERS!!!". Anyone wanting that "advantage", please contact me, I have a spot for you.

This is a volunteer sport, without SO's, we have no match, without good SO's we don't have a good match. They do this for free. They deserve to be treated as well as possible. If you don't let them shoot the regular match, very few will show up for the next one.

Edited October 9, 2011 by stats

[GSWEAR]

I've heard this numerous times and the people that say it:

1 - Think the SO's just hang out and shoot the stages all day and cut each other breaks on thscoringng since their all buddies and want to cheat for each other.

2 - These are people that are getting beat by the SO's.

3 - Are whiners that just want to bitch and are to lazy to show up the day before a or 3 hours early to help set up so they can find out SO's usually bust ass to get things set up and 10 minutes later strapping on gear and shooting their stages instead of standing around BSing with their squad and wondering why the match is getting started 15 minutes late.

These are just my opinions but I have never seen where being an SO or MD has any advantages to performance, as mentioned I think it is a disadvantage.

Greg

[The_Vigilante]

I definitely agree with Stats and GSWEAR above. I was an SO in the NM State IDPA Championship last year. I was involved in setting up the stages on Thursday which was an all day affair and was pretty well beat at the end of the day. Had to get up early next morning to shoot the stages with the other SO's and score keepers. We were running small squads which meant more work for each member of the squad so it was hard to concentrate on shooting the stages even though we had set them up the day before-everything was done at a faster pace-no time to relax for a minute or think about stategy for shooting the stages. By the end of the day I was again exhausted-my shooting had definitely been affected. For me anyway there was no advantage shooting the stages early even though I had set them up the day before

Edited October 9, 2011 by The_Vigilante

[bbbean]

If you don't trust the officials to be honest competitors why are you shooting their matches? I wouldn't shoot a match where I thought the officials were rigging scores.

FWIW, I don't shoot IDPA, but I am a USPSA RO. In my experience a whole squad of ROs is MORE likely to be picky about the rules and demand 100% compliance than any given RO running other shooters. Combine that with the fact that the ROs are also doing a final check of the stages for safety or stage design issues, doing last minute construction, and missing the luxury of watching shooters run stages the day before they run them, many ROs find they shoot worse when they're working than they do when they're just competing.

I have to assume it's the same with SOs in IDPA.

Edited October 9, 2011 by bbbean

[doncannon]

I have to agree with everything said here so far. I just recently got back from the World Championships where i was part of the setup crew and Stats Crew. I can tell you that after driving for 24 hours, setting up stages for 5 days and setting up the Stats shack I was exhausted by the time it was my turn to shoot. Did i have any advantage by setting up the stages? Heck no. We concentrate on setup, safety and asthetics so their is no time to "Game". you move on the the next task and i can tell you that by the end of each day i couldn't remember much of anythng i did except that for most of the day i was hot, sticky, wet thirsty and hungry.

As far as cheating on score i have to tell you that if i caught someone doing that in the stats shack i would do everything in my power to get them kicked out of our sport. I Florida their were 6 of us scoring. we each touched an average of 3000 to 4000 score sheets. we do not have time to look at anything but the data. with an average of 8 key strokes per sheet we did an incredible job of keeping up and posting as fast as we did. Mike Critser and I also shot the match so we also made sure that we did not have anything to do with entering our own scores.

I someone claims that SO's have an advantage i challenge their qualifications to make a statement like that. Walk in my shoes first.

JMO

YMMV

[Steve Koski]

A year ago I shot with the SO's the day before the "real shooters" in Parma, ID. Among them Bruce Bates, who designed about 1/3 of the stages. Poor bruce got PE's on HIS OWN stages.

[hankfan79]

I don't think I have ever had a advantage by being a S.O.. Matter of fact, I usually shoot worse because I have to think about other shooters, their safety, and trying to "idiot proof" a stage so there are no complications and/or surprises that may arrive during the match.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I rarely shoot IDPA anymore but that is another story. I have worked matches in three states and have a very strong opinion on this topic.

Shooting the day before everyone else is not always easy. There are set up issues and more. Usually the day I shot the majors in this area, I drove long distances worked a little to help finish set up and then shot. If anyone thinks that does not have an effect of the shooting, let them try it.

The idea that anyone gets special treatment is absurd. If anything, the work as a SO is a negative to the performance and not a positive.

All that said, I would not have given up one minute of the times I enjoyed with the people I worked with. Many are getting back into the sport which may bring me back too.

[Chills1994]

As a shooter, I would never attend or return to a major sanctioned match if I wouldn't be allowed to watch the SO's shooting on the day prior.

I have actually heard of that happening. And I will never go to that match or range/club if they continue with that M.O. I will tell all my friends to do the same.

Just in general, it makes me think something hinky is going on.

Getting back to the original O.P., I get paid by the hour, fairly well, I might add. For me to miss a day of work to help set up a match and then shoot it....pfftttt.....I am better off just paying the match entry fee and shooting the match with the regular shooters. I would be money ahead.

If my scores/results aren't going to be tabulated in with the regular shooters if I were to SO, then:

A. you are going to have to pay me to SO

or

B. somehow give me credit or a certificate to shoot some other major sanctioned match of the same or higher level for me to shoot it as a regular shooter for free. (which I think is like USPSA's "work one, shoot one" policy when it comes to RO'ing the Nat's).

I have never seen any sort of cheating when I am SO'ing/RO'ing in with a squad of my fellow SO/RO's.

I have seen some things that should have been called on other squads that weren't. And in fact, on YouTube, there is a video of one SO in his fancy schmancy team shirt SO'ing another fellow team member in his identical fancy schmancy team shirt.... Hmmn.... But as far as I know, neither of those two guys were going to SO regular shooters through on the next day. They were just regular shooters themselves who shot on the same day as the SO's.

As MD, one way to upset that possibility is to randomize the SO squads, so it's not just everybody's buddies on one squad.

What would be nice is for the MD's to certify that none of their stages had been used in local matches and then re-hashed at their major sanctioned match. Obviously, that gives the local boys an advantage if they have seen the stages before. And by local match, I mean in USPSA too.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Chills1994

[ck1]

Shooting after a long day of setting up stages actually puts one at a disadvantage, it's not just physically worse off either, mentally it's harder to stay focused and overall it's more of a "let's get this over with so we can all relax finally" vibe more so than a normal match vibe.

If I had my way SO's would shoot in the a.m. before everyone else on the same day, but that just doesn't work out logistically.

Truthfully though, if there's anything I could change first about sanctioned matches, it'd be making it easier for SO's to hand out FTDR's to competitors that think they're above pasting targets and who end up slowing down the squads do to their arrogance, sadly it seems like that is a trend that has been on the rise...

[gb32]

I've been an SO at approx. 20 sanctioned IDPA matches. I honestly don't recall ever seeing anyone get any kind of break. If anything, you've got an entire squad of SOs watching you shoot. It does affect your performance, in a negative way. I'm an Area Coordinator now so I rarely work a match as an SO. I often SO the SOs though. That way they can concentrate on their match just like a paying shooter. I recently shot a sanctioned match in my area with the SOs. That was the only day I could shoot it due to work. I went first on every stage.

This another thing to add to the litany of excuses shooters pack into their range bag to excuse a poor performance. Between this, round dumping, "this is a new gun", "I don't have time to practice", "the clouds were in my eyes" you wonder why some people bother at all. I put this allegation in the same class as bigfoot sightings and ceramic Glocks. I'll believe it when I see it.

I applaud MDs who don't shoot their own match as I believe they are putting their customers first. Dont' have a problem with those who do shoot either.

Respectfully, Gary Byerly

[Greg Bell]

Good luck recruiting staff for matches while making accusations that there is always some cheating.

[Bob Hostetter]

Since the match is supposed to be the same for everyone how do you deal with nice weather on the SO shooitng day and rain on the shooting day for everyone else? And just what is so bad about the SO's shooting their own match, complete with awards? And before someone ask's, yes I have SO'ed and shot more then one sanctioned match, as well as worked most if not all of the other match offical positions.

[jar]

Since the match is supposed to be the same for everyone how do you deal with nice weather on the SO shooitng day and rain on the shooting day for everyone else? And just what is so bad about the SO's shooting their own match, complete with awards? And before someone ask's, yes I have SO'ed and shot more then one sanctioned match, as well as worked most if not all of the other match offical positions.

Because the whole point of shooting a major match is to see how you stack up against broader competition. If I couldn't shoot the match for real, I wouldn't volunteer to SO. Weather is just luck of the draw, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Most of the sanctioned matches around here are 1 day format with a staff match friday, and public squads sat and sun, so it doesn't just affect the staff.

To anyone who thinks working the match is an advantage, come on out, we could use the help.

[mikegot38]

Yes or you would not get enough SO's to run the match. What I think is unfair is when I find that the host club has been setting up the stages for the last several months and practicing them.

[Chills1994]

^^^

BINGO!!!

[shootaglock89]

One of the main reasons that someone will SO a major match is so they can compete without paying the fee. I would never SO a match if I couldn't get score along with all of the shooters. Having worked a major, and countless weekend matches, I can definitely say I shoot MUCH better when I am not worrying about match stuff. Yes, I know SO's shoot the day before, but it is a completely different feel than a match where you are strictly a participant.

[jmorris]

, "there's always cheating" - that SOs don't call their buddies on the same infractions for which they'd ding regular shooters, stages may get adjusted on the SO shoot day, etc.

I have been an SO at my fair share of matches and can tell anyone, you will always preform better if you are NOT an SO. You don't get to cheat and (in most cases) you get to setup the match all day only to be rushed through them to finish before dark.

The guy that said that should try SO'ing in a few matches and see what he thinks. If he thinks he can get away with any more violations than a non SO he is missinformed. Maybe he should contact Cody Ray and sign up to SO for TX state next year, that should be a real eye opener, for him.