SOs Shooting Sanctioned Match

[lugnut]

BUT,,,, I only have a problem with staff shooting for score if there are secret stages or the staff got practice runs ahead of time on secret stages. If all the stages are published way in advance so pretty much any body can look at them, or after the stages are built anyone and everyone can check em out I have no problem at all with matchstaff shooting match for the same score.

I thought someone mentioned that blind stages aren't allowed in sanctioned matches... I have never seen one that's for sure.. And to your point- I'd never use them at any of my matches as you may have mentioned.... that would be a huge advantage to the staff that set up that stage for sure.

[kct45acp]

In the years I have been involved with IDPA, my experience has been one of the biggest things that weigh on the Match Directors(at least the ones I know) is how do

they make fair it for their SO and Staff crew.

I have seen many approaches to this from bringing in Master class shooters to run the SO's, to running a split SO day allowing only the CSO and SO to run the timer

for there stage. I have volunteered to bring an out of town crew in to run the local SO's through at some troubled matches in my area. I have also shot matches that

were run by an out of town crew as well.

As far as the sour grapes aspect and not performing well at a match you are SOing, practice always helps. Take a moment for yourself when you're on deck clear

your mind then shoot to the best of your ability.

The SO advantage the great debate. I have shot and worked 8 National Championships and 1 World Championship(7 of these as a CSO) and I am always proud to

see the number of SOs who get to take home a trophy, this is not because they had a benefit by shooting the day before the regular competitors, being called looser by

the other SOs(I promise you this, we get called harder)or the occasional re-shoot for stage adjustment. It is because they are the most dedicated group of people

that are more worried about the shooters they will see the next day than about how they themselves are going to perform.

Just imagine how well these people could perform if they weren't working for the competitors sake, and for love of the sport.

[Chills1994]

If all these SO's are cheating supposedly and disproportionately walk away with more trophies, where's all the stats people with all the plaques?

Heck, if you were a stats person, you wouldn't have to even bust a cap to shoot the match . Just pencil whip your scoresheets, forge somebody's initials on the scoresheets, and type in your made up times and points down.

[jmorris]

Without SO's there is no match, ever" .... Wrong, without shooters the is no match, ever. Shooter's can alway S.O. themselves.

Ok, you have now offically lost me.

SO's are shooters, they just do everything that has to be done for a match to take place before, during and after the match as well as shoot it. Shooters show up and shoot then go home.

As for stages being the same for everyone shoot a match that has bays that face different directions East and North, South or West. If you start on the east side in the morning with the sun blinding you and someone else come along 2 hours later after the sun rises above the bill of his hat, do you think you both had the same stage? It's not rain over several days but it illustrates that even within the same day without climate change stages can be different for different shooters and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it in many cases.

Any advantage of "homefield" is dimished by busting your ass setting everything up. If you don't think SOing is work I suggest you at least try it a time or two, it might change the way you look at SO's

[Strick]

I have seen many approaches to this from bringing in Master class shooters to run the SO's,

I have only been skimming this thread because the idea SO's get an huge advantage is mostly...........well dumb.

Having said that I noticed this part and I have seen it done a few times and I will say doing that does give advantage to those shooters. Letting top level shooters run a squad on every stage gives them 10-15 looks at how the stage could be run, the timing of movers, etc... so the next day when they actually shoot they have an advantage. Unless you are part of the setup crew you should not be allowed into the bay until your squad gets there to shoot that stage.

Ok, back to your scheduled thread.

[fastarget]

funny I do not see this discussion in the uspsa forum, hmmmmm

Well after SOing over 60 local and sanctioned matches, I can tell you I would rather not SO. You seem to be rushed and running around to try and make all the stages with no time to think or visualize. Why I still do it? not for the dollar an hour salary, but because I love the sport, idpa or uspsa and it is my way to help keep it going. Now if someone or some club is being unsportsmanlike I would like to think it is the exception and not the rule.

This year at the CO state championship, workers shot on friday 42 degrees, pouring rain , hail and sleet, the main match was on saturday, 71 degrees sunny.............how many SOs do you think objected and demanded reshoots in fair weather.."zero". (some ended up in the top ten, some in the bottom ten, the rest in between), skilled shooters can perform under any conditions, SO or not.

Solution : become an SO and help, have a positive attitude, and practice to be a better shooter.

Edited October 11, 2011 by fastarget

[Flexmoney]

Shooter's can alway S.O. themselves...

But then that's what we have talking about isn't it?

I think you stuck a nail in the coffin of your own position on this one Bob.

[Bob Hostetter]

OK, after much thought and after reading all of the thoughful post's regarding this matter, I have changed my mind. I think SO's should be allowed to shoot the match with everyone else.

[x1xBugsBunnyx1x]

Well the wife & I took care of cooking last state match - while one gent was SOing who was not a certified SO - I really don't care, for the most part I do not like most of the people at that range, its close is the ONLY reason we go.

The SO's at state matches have the advantage w/o question of being in on each stage prior to shooting, often actually in on the planning stages, while regular shooters do not have the luxury of getting a mindset, at least thats how things are done here from what I have been involved in, thats an advantage for SO's over the regular shooters.

Do I think the BJ buddy system comes into play, it does to some extent, SO's should not shoot a match they help setup in all fairness to folks who do not have first hand knowledge of each CoF.

just an opinion, we shoot for practice & have no interest in a paper prize.

[waktasz]

You are free to take that extra vacation day and get to the range early on the day the SO's shoot and watch and plan the stages to your heart's content.

[The_Vigilante]

I can now announce that at the end of the NM State IDPA Match not one SO finished first in his division. So much for the advantage of setting them up!!!

[Don Springer]

Our club Prez sends an email out a week before the shoot inviting everyone to come out the day before and help set up. Surprisingly we have the SAME SIX guys come out trying to get that "edge" every time. They are usually the guys SOing the match the next day. We have a saying in our club. "If you don't like the way it's being done, you've just been promoted."

[fastarget]

Well the wife & I took care of cooking last state match - while one gent was SOing who was not a certified SO - I really don't care, for the most part I do not like most of the people at that range, its close is the ONLY reason we go.

The SO's at state matches have the advantage w/o question of being in on each stage prior to shooting, often actually in on the planning stages, while regular shooters do not have the luxury of getting a mindset, at least thats how things are done here from what I have been involved in, thats an advantage for SO's over the regular shooters.

Do I think the BJ buddy system comes into play, it does to some extent, SO's should not shoot a match they help setup in all fairness to folks who do not have first hand knowledge of each CoF.

just an opinion, we shoot for practice & have no interest in a paper prize.

After looking at the CO state championship results for the last 2 years, there is not an SO from those matches in the top ten.

My experience that all the planning, design, setting up then running over 40 sportsmen and women through your stage at a regular match, you have set yourself up for screwing up your own stage, which happens too often to SOs.

After reading this thread over, I am starting to find this whole thread ludicrous, SOs are volunteers they bust their butts match after match so people that appreciate it or not can show up and have a good time shooting under the safest of conditions. So instead of claiming they get to see more and practice etc etc, maybe we should think about thanking them when they hand us the score sheet, giving them a pat on the back at every stage , and bringing them coffee and donuts too........

Edited October 21, 2011 by fastarget

[juan]

I know this is IDPA.

I have worked at our level 3 matches for the last three years.

this year I am not doing this, I want to focus as a shooter.

any one who believes it to be a advantage has not worked and shot one.

usallay you worked all week setting up. and your pretty damn tired,and your not truly into the shooting aspect of it.

[fastarget]

I know this is IDPA.

I have worked at our level 3 matches for the last three years.

this year I am not doing this, I want to focus as a shooter.

any one who believes it to be a advantage has not worked and shot one.

usallay you worked all week setting up. and your pretty damn tired,and your not truly into the shooting aspect of it.

+1, and that pretty much sums it up....

[jmorris]

The SO's at state matches have the advantage w/o question of being in on each stage prior to shooting, often actually in on the planning stages, while regular shooters do not have the luxury of getting a mindset, at least thats how things are done here from what I have been involved in, thats an advantage for SO's over the regular shooters.

How many sanctioned matches have you SO'ed to come to this conclusion?

[Duane Thomas]

Our local (Washington state) IDPA Championship has a separate SO match the day before the "real" match, and SO scores are not included in with the match day competitors. Over time my attitude toward that has changed. At first I thought that was really lame. For instance one of our best local shooters is also an SO who worked the state match at least one year - and in that year, if his score had been counted in with the match day shooters, he would have been the CDP state champion. Let me hasten to add, there is absolutely no doubt in mind this was not because he got any advantage from shooting the SO match, he's just that good.You turn in the best score, you should get the #1 spot. Right?

Over time though I have come to see the wisdom in this policy. (And, having discussed the matter with the club president, I know this actually is the rationale for the policy.) One of the core values of "combat" pistol match shooting is that everyone shoots the same match, the exact same courses of fire. The thing is, one of the primary reasons they have the SO match the day before is to beta test the stages. They might have looked good on paper, they might have looked good while you were setting them up, but invariably problems are found when real shooters are actually firing them with real ammo. A particular target is positioned so its engagement angle is potentially unsafe relative to the berm if a shooter uses a body position you hadn't foreseen anyone using, the super-cool electronic activation and movement system doesn't actually work reliably, the engagement time for the disappearing target is too fast or not fast enough, etc.

When a problem is found, what do you do? You change it. So, frequently, the stages the SOs shoot are, in fact, not identical to the stages the match day attendees shoot. Therefore, having shot a different - though very similar - match, the SOs' scores get counted for having shot a different match.

Makes sense to me.

Also, you're always going to have that small percentage of people just SURE that the SOs got an advantage from shooting a separate match, "without anyone else there to see what really happened." What if our state match SO/great shooter actually had won CDP state champion? Would there have inevitably been accusations, whispers, whining? Yes, there would have been. Would that have been fair? No, it would not have been. But still it would have happened. Best to avoid that, I think.

My $0.02. For what it's worth. Which may in fact be $0.02.

[waktasz]

Joyce Wilson has said, very recently, SOs will always shoot for score.

/thread

[jar]

When a problem is found, what do you do? You change it. So, frequently, the stages the SOs shoot are, in fact, not identical to the stages the match day attendees shoot. Therefore, having shot a different - though very similar - match, the SOs' scores get counted for having shot a different match.

When you change it, people who've shot it already have to reshoot. We did this at the New England Regional IDPA match this year. A clamshell prop went down on the second to last squad of the staff shoot. It was replaced with a peekaboo and the staff reshot the stage. It was bit of a pain, but it was the only way to avoid tossing the stage from the match. This is one of the many risks to your match performance you take when you work a major match.

[lugnut]

When a problem is found, what do you do? You change it. So, frequently, the stages the SOs shoot are, in fact, not identical to the stages the match day attendees shoot. Therefore, having shot a different - though very similar - match, the SOs' scores get counted for having shot a different match.

When you change it, people who've shot it already have to reshoot. We did this at the New England Regional IDPA match this year. A clamshell prop went down on the second to last squad of the staff shoot. It was replaced with a peekaboo and the staff reshot the stage. It was bit of a pain, but it was the only way to avoid tossing the stage from the match. This is one of the many risks to your match performance you take when you work a major match.

Stressful is putting it lightly. We had thought we had a back up hydraulic cylinder... I was very bummed that we couldn't find it. In the end I think it was a good move to keep the match at 12 stages.

[jmorris]

When a problem is found, what do you do? You change it

If you change it, you reshoot it. If you don't want or have time to, you throw it out.

If you have enough experienced RO’s/SO’s they will catch 99.9% of the problems at the walk through, before any shots are fired (I know that’s a big if).

[Duane Thomas]

That's a nice theory, but talking to my club president about what actually happens at the SO match, that doesn't seem to be their experience.

[Jane]

Our local (Washington state) IDPA Championship has a separate SO match the day before the "real" match,

Not this year, I'm told.

[Bogey]

It's an absolute shame that there are people out there that Jane's original post describes. It's even more frightening if that sort of stuff could ever really happen.

I have been a Safety Officer since December 2005. Since becoming certified, I have worked an average of three local level matches a month, and the vast majority of those I help set up the morning prior to shooting them in the afternoon. Anyone here can go see my scores to see if it has ever been an advantage to me in being on the set up crew.

I have never been on a set up crew for the 20 plus sanctioned matches I have been a SO for. I have never been in a position any different than any other competitor shooting those matches, especially when the only real focus I try to have during the SO portion of the match is how I can run my stage to the maximum benefit of the shooter. Very rarely do I get to concentrate on my game the way some think SOs get to. I have been lucky to bump from Expert twice during State level matches, and come up with a few first place wins to boot. But compare those wins with the number of sanctioned matches I've shot and you get a very small percentage of wins.

I have the privilege of shooting at The Range, home of The Carolina Cup, every week. Frank is always working on developing stages for his next Cup, and we (all competitors) get to see slivers of what he's coming up with. We never get to see what anything is really like until "go time" though. Timing always changes, stage elements are combined differently, etc, etc. He has a set up crew of 3-4 guys that work for three weeks solid to set it up. I've never seen ONE of them win first place at the Cup. Frank is of the mindset that he wants NO ONE to have any advantage. When his Safety Officers show up, we are seeing a completely new match. I tend to think this is how it is across the country. At least that's what I believe.

The only way I can think that MAYBE any SO would EVER get a break would be someone ignoring a procedural, or scoring a target incorrectly. I would like to think this doesn't happen on purpose.

As I said on another board, if I am not allowed to shoot for score with everyone else, I would cease to be a Safety Officer. I'd let some of the complainers step up instead.

[Bob Hostetter]

Why are you assuming the "complainers" never or rarely SO sanctioned matches?