SOs Shooting Sanctioned Match

[jmorris]

As for the "should shoot the regular match" question, yes. It's a PITA to begin with, another day off work, traveling, paying for some place to sleep, food and more manual labor than most of the volenteers are used to in a day. The "free" match is just a way to say "thank you for all you have done" and is not ment as compensation for work. If you want me to do the work but don't want to shoot with me my price would start around $60/hr with your materials/equipment.

[lugnut]

Damn... I really wish the people that think the SOs shouldn't shoot the same match would step up to run matches so us "cheaters" can shoot as regular competitors! Talk about naive....

[Bob Hostetter]

Mr. Jar stated, "to see how you stack up against broader competition". What would prevent you from merely cross referencing the results of the staff match with the main match. I mean if everyone shot the same match, faced the same challenges, the results would be comparable and valid. They would just be listed on a separate piece of paper. And I see nobody addressed the issue of weather. Only if everyone shoots the match on the same day(s) does everyone have an equal chance to win. And I am very aware that time issues generally prevent the SO's from shooting on match day.

[lugnut]

Since the match is supposed to be the same for everyone how do you deal with nice weather on the SO shooitng day and rain on the shooting day for everyone else? And just what is so bad about the SO's shooting their own match, complete with awards? And before someone ask's, yes I have SO'ed and shot more then one sanctioned match, as well as worked most if not all of the other match offical positions.

Regarding "the match is supposed to be the same for everyone"... you can't predict weather... whether it be rain, snow, heat, wind or humidity. There is going to be variation whenever we are outdoors... not much we can do about that. As far as being the same for everyone... don't go too crazy trying to figure that one out.... low ports are easier for shorter shooters, high walls and ports are easier for tall shooters. I've shot head shots that were tougher than what tall shooters see... it's the nature of the game.

I can't for the life of me understand why you think SOs should shoot their own matches though....

[bbbean]

And I see nobody addressed the issue of weather. Only if everyone shoots the match on the same day(s) does everyone have an equal chance to win.

Weather is part of shooting. Sometimes it rains in the morning, sometimes it gets windy in the afternoon. Multi-day matches obviously have weather issues. Even if the general weather is the same, the temp and angle of the sun obviously vary during the day. Short of shooting indoors, there is no way to guarantee the same conditions for every shooter, regardless of when the staff shoots.

[GForceLizard]

I don't know how to vote picked the wrong response.

I've worked sanctioned IDPA matches. All staff should be in the same match results as everyone else. I think you do well when your club holds a sanctioned match because you've had a lot of practice with that STYLE of stages. If you shoot stages designed by 3 guys in your club for years then you know how to shoot them. Different stage designers have different styles and preferences.

[Bob Hostetter]

<< You can't predict weather >> You are right, that's why everyone should shoot the match on the same day(s), that's the fairest way to do it.

<< Low port, high port, skinny shooters, fat shooters >> Yes everyone brings to the table different strengths and weaknesses, physcially and emotionally. They also bring different equipment, skill levels, and commitment. As a group, and as individuals, they bring those to the match to pit them against the SAME challenge. The key is they bring those thing with them largely (with some exceptions) by choice. Things like weather are uncontrollable by the shooter and should be as equal as possible for everyone and that requires them all to shoot on the same day(s). Do different ports cause different shooters different problems, sure, but again same challenge for everyone, train to overcome them.

<< Can't understand why SO's should shoot their matches >> Having helped setup stages gives someone a unique chance to carefully lay out the best way to shoot it, something by rule the match competitors aren't allowed to do. If that makes you too tired to shoot well maybe you should look at going to the gym. I have seen so called surprize stages where the guy who won the stage by over 30% helped build it. I have watched SO's shoot a stage one way and on match day change up the WSB'ing making it more dificult for the main match. I have also SO's get multiple reshoots while they "finetuned" the stage while only the final run was recorded for the match score. And I have watched the Match Director's wife win the custom random raffle pistol 3 years in a row, after HE drew her name out of the 'hat'. And I have watched a SO's be required to make a call on another competitor that would decide who between them would be Division Champion. While I think he made the right call he should never have been placed in that position in the first place. You eliminate all of these problems by separating the SO's and the Match competitors results. Yes it makes it more dificult to recruit match staff but integrey and professionalism never comes without a cost.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Bob Hostetter

[oldfrank]

I don't know how to vote picked the wrong response.

I've worked sanctioned IDPA matches. All staff should be in the same match results as everyone else. I think you do well when your club holds a sanctioned match because you've had a lot of practice with that STYLE of stages. If you shoot stages designed by 3 guys in your club for years then you know how to shoot them. Different stage designers have different styles and preferences.

I misunderstood the question and voted wrong also so actually on 4 people think SO should shoot a separate match.

I can only add I have SO'ed sanctioned matches and monthly matches and anyone who thinks the SO has an advantage is not thinking straight.

We do help set the stages up but we never preshoot them to test them and you do not see every stage.

I can't count the times I shot the match in pouring rain and then worked it the next day when the weather was beautiful.

[Bob Hostetter]

<< I can't count the times I shot the match in pouring rain and then worked it the next day when the weather was beautiful. >>

Which is a perfect example of why the matches should be scored separately ...

Edited October 10, 2011 by Bob Hostetter

[jar]

<< You can't predict weather >> You are right, that's why everyone should shoot the match on the same day(s), that's the fairest way to do it.

Then matches can only accomodate 1/3 of the shooters they currently do. Personally, I don't think that's worth the tradeoff.

<< Can't understand why SO's should shoot their matches >> Having helped setup stages gives someone a unique chance to carefully lay out the best way to shoot it, something by rule the match competitors aren't allowed to do. If that makes you too tired to shoot well maybe you should look at going to the gym. I have seen so called surprize stages where the guy who won the stage by over 30% helped build it. I have watched SO's shoot a stage one way and on match day change up the WSB'ing making it more dificult for the main match. I have also SO's get multiple reshoots while they "finetuned" the stage while only the final run was recorded for the match score. And I have watched the Match Director's wife win the custom random raffle pistol 3 years in a row, after HE drew her name out of the 'hat'. And I have watched a SO's be required to make a call on another competitor that would decide who between them would be Division Champion. While I think he made the right call he should never have been placed in that position in the first place. You eliminate all of these problems by separating the SO's and the Match competitors results. Yes it makes it more dificult to recruit match staff but integrey and professionalism never comes without a cost.

The solution to this isn't to not allow SO's to shoot the same match, it's to not allow them to cheat. I've never seen anything like this in the northeast. Surprise stages shouldn't be allowed in sanctioned matches for exactly this reason, it's impossible to make them fair. I think 'makes it more difficult to recruit match staff' understates the issue. I think it's more like 'makes impossible to hold matches'.

[The_Vigilante]

If it is a sanctioned match you are referring to it should be reported to IDPA HQ if what you say is true. Blind "surprise" stages have now been ruled illegal in sanctioned matches and if they are still occurring where you shoot report them to the IDPA HQ's. The problem with SO's shooting their own match is that there may be only one SO shooting ESP Expert or SSR-MM. He has no one to compete against!!!

[lugnut]

<< I can't count the times I shot the match in pouring rain and then worked it the next day when the weather was beautiful. >>

Which is a perfect example of why the matches should be scored separately ...

I'll give you credit for at least standing up for you opinion as others seem to remain quiet... even though I totally disagree with you!

What if you run a major match with 150+ people (including SOs) and the club can't support more than say 50/day... should we effectively run 3 separate matches? One for each day? Oh and often times some shooters shoot with the staff for scheduling reasons... as well as sponsors... are they cheaters too??

Like I said- ALL competitors at any of the matches I've been to have been able to see all the stages in advance... with exception of the Indoor Nats- and if you think working there all week long is an advantage you need to think again. Matter of fact at a recent major sanctioned match I ran the ESP Division Champ and high overall showed up to watch the staff shoot to view the stages before he shot on Saturday.... I wonder if he saw cheating... or I wonder if he cheated. I think not.

[Glock3422]

I will only shoot matches where the probability of a successful finish qualifying for a match bump is likely. Beating five or eight shooters is not an accomplishment.

To the point, I have to be convinced that all SOs and competitors will shoot the same COF. I have seen this done as close to perfection as possible. I have also seen it not turn out so well.

A match that lacks a quality of staff and organization will probably not see me twice, and certainly not three times.

My criteria for working matches is even more restrictive.

[waktasz]

The thread reminds me of politics.

Instead of fixing the problem (cheating), enact more laws that only serve to restrict the entire population.

[Bob Hostetter]

Lugnut,

If you have 150 shooters and can only handle 50 a day, you run the entire group thru 1/3 of the stages each day. That gives equal exposure to everyone all of the different possible weather conditions or at least is as close as you can come. Your use of the word cheater is applied much more loosely then my application. I stated I have seen people cheat, not that everyone who works a match or shoots on a different schedule is a cheater. Only that the fairest way to do it is have everyone shooting for score in the same match shoot on the same day.

Waktasz,

Why do you assume that the local or state level powers didn't attempt to correct the problem. In at lease a couple of examples provided above IDPA HQ's was advised and an action recommended. If my memory serves me right, one time HQ stated they would look into it (Nothing came of it), and for another HQ's didn't even bother to respond to the compliant. So, Waktasz, how would you suggest handling it if HQ has no interest in dealing with it?

[waktasz]

I would suggest no one shoot at that club and no one volunteer to run any matches there.

I see making the SO's shoot their own match with their own results as punishing them for volunteering.

If you do that you aren't going to have anyone around to run the match anyway so either way there won't be any matches there.

[sirveyr]

Lugnut,

If you have 150 shooters and can only handle 50 a day, you run the entire group thru 1/3 of the stages each day. That gives equal exposure to everyone all of the different possible weather conditions or at least is as close as you can come. Your use of the word cheater is applied much more loosely then my application. I stated I have seen people cheat, not that everyone who works a match or shoots on a different schedule is a cheater. Only that the fairest way to do it is have everyone shooting for score in the same match shoot on the same day.

Waktasz,

Why do you assume that the local or state level powers didn't attempt to correct the problem. In at lease a couple of examples provided above IDPA HQ's was advised and an action recommended. If my memory serves me right, one time HQ stated they would look into it (Nothing came of it), and for another HQ's didn't even bother to respond to the compliant. So, Waktasz, how would you suggest handling it if HQ has no interest in dealing with it?

Does this mean that every santioned match that I shoot will require a minumum of four days to complete the match? I think I need more vacation time!

[bhurte]

Without SO's there is no match, ever.

If you ever had a legitimate claim that an SO was bending the rules possibly to benefit their own match standing, talk to the match director. Don't alienate the people who make our great sports possible.

[lugnut]

Without SO's there is no match, ever.

If you ever had a legitimate claim that an SO was bending the rules possibly to benefit their own match standing, talk to the match director. Don't alienate the people who make our great sports possible.

That sums it up quite nicely.

[Bob Hostetter]

How does offering a polite opinion on how to improve the quality and professionalism of the sport, in response to someone elses request for opinions, alienate anyone? Why does it become sacrilege to offer suggestions that maybe, just maybe, every single SO out there is not perfect?

"Without SO's there is no match, ever" .... Wrong, without shooters the is no match, ever. Shooter's can alway S.O. themselves, not the perfect choice but it's done pretty regularly. But then that's what we have talking about isn't it?

[bhurte]

How does offering a polite opinion on how to improve the quality and professionalism of the sport, in response to someone elses request for opinions, alienate anyone? Why does it become sacrilege to offer suggestions that maybe, just maybe, every single SO out there is not perfect?

"Without SO's there is no match, ever" .... Wrong, without shooters the is no match, ever. Shooter's can alway S.O. themselves, not the perfect choice but it's done pretty regularly. But then that's what we have talking about isn't it?

Obviously, I've struck a nerve, and I apologize for that.

When I said alienate, I meant it in the true sense of the word(casting off someone from a group) that meaning telling people who are gracious enough to volunteer their help, that they cannot shoot with the other competitive shooters. That's all.

I'm all for the betterment of the shooting sports we love, so if you see this as an issue I'm glad we have a forum to discuss with other shooters. Best of luck and Happy shooting.

[waktasz]

How does offering a polite opinion on how to improve the quality and professionalism of the sport, in response to someone elses request for opinions, alienate anyone? Why does it become sacrilege to offer suggestions that maybe, just maybe, every single SO out there is not perfect?

"Without SO's there is no match, ever" .... Wrong, without shooters the is no match, ever. Shooter's can alway S.O. themselves, not the perfect choice but it's done pretty regularly. But then that's what we have talking about isn't it?

I don't find it all that polite to say all SOs have to shoot in their own match because cheating among that group is so rampant.

[spanky]

Since the match is supposed to be the same for everyone how do you deal with nice weather on the SO shooitng day and rain on the shooting day for everyone else? And just what is so bad about the SO's shooting their own match, complete with awards? And before someone ask's, yes I have SO'ed and shot more then one sanctioned match, as well as worked most if not all of the other match offical positions.

Because it's just as easy to have clear skys for SO/RO days and rain for competitor days as it is vice versa.

[Steve Koski]

Even if everyone shot on the same day, it is impossible to have everyone shoot "the same match."

• The earth continually rotates (sun changes position), giving some shooters a benefit and penalizing others.
  
• The wind changes.
  
• Props act somewhat differently (yes, I know it's hard to believe) after some use, or in different wind conditions.
  
• Targets look different with zero holes, or with 50 holes & 50 pasters.
  
• The ground may dry out over the course of the day.
  
• A divot may develop in a foot position that wasn't there two hours earlier.
  

The best way to approximate "the same match" is to have only a few people shoot a single stage within the same couple minute period, and declare the match void if anyone can detect a change in conditions.

Since that is completely unrealistic, everything else is just an approximation of "the same match."

Koski

[Joe4d]

What about your stage designers? Do you put them in their own catagory too? I also wouldnt Volunteer if my scores were not included with the rest of the shooters.

Not sure if that was directed at my post or not, But yes I put stage designers in the same category, I think I mentioned them.

BUT,,,, I only have a problem with staff shooting for score if there are secret stages or the staff got practice runs ahead of time on secret stages. If all the stages are published way in advance so pretty much any body can look at them, or after the stages are built anyone and everyone can check em out I have no problem at all with matchstaff shooting match for the same score.

Have you ever shot a major match on staff day ? I have, multiple Area 8's sections, and IDPA state levels,

They all are very rough on the staff. We are still finishing the stage setup so it doesnt start on time, you end up working and running around several hours before starting, each stage takes double as long because everyone is an RO and we all over analyze each and every shooter and possibility, So the shooting that runs 4 hours for everyone else because each stage has dedicated RO's that have it down to a science, Takes the staff 8 hours to shoot with imbeded RO's. But I do it becasue my Area/section needs me. I know I wont be as competitive, but this is my game and I feel like I gotta help out.

The IDPA matches were freezing cold, spent 4 or 5 hours setting up, then had "Staff shoot" I was so cold my fingers couldnt load magazines. And I was scored against people that show up, stayed in heated club house, shot there 15 second stage then return to heat, repeat.

trust me RO's SO's are not getting an advantage shooting on staff day. There may be a few bad apples but those need to be weeded out. You may see more staff higher in scores, but generally that is because the staff has been around longer, shoots more and is more into the sport, not because we are hooking each other up.

I can understand the perception of conflict of interest, and it is probably one of the reasons we need to keep money out of the sport. Start adding alot of cash to the mix and maybe things change. Outside of the secret stage issue I have never seen any problems with staff bias or cheating.