To Coach or not to Coach that is the question?

[R-Bros_JLR]

It seems I'm of the complete opposite to most that have replied. I'm all for helping or being helped by my squad-mates I'd rather the placing come down to who shoots the best, rather than be decided by someone forgetting a target, or running out of ammo or something. To me, shooting sports should be more about the shooting and less about all the memory stuff. If you rely on someone to coach you through the stage you're obviously not going to go as fast as someone who is able to plan effectively and follow their plan. That being said, I don't believe anyone should have a designated "coach" with them on the stage. If the other shooters in your squad help, that's fine, but don't bring your shooting coach with you on stages I'm RO'ing

[StealthyBlagga]

For local matches I am OK with coaching by the RO only when needed for safety or to get the shooter through the stage in a reasonably timely manner (such as if they are really struggling with a long-range target and can't even see where they are missing). I do this only for the less experienced shooters to give them a more positive experience and to help them learn from their mistakes. I will NOT do it for an experienced shooter or where I think coaching will have a significant influence on the outcome of the match.

For a major match, I am absolutely against coaching. I will not do it as the RO, whether on the clock, before the start or even during the stage briefing. At SMM3G we are very careful to present a consistent written and verbal stage briefing. No ad-libbing. Only the CRO answers questions. Any clarifications are clearly documented on the WSB/VSB only as authorized by the RM. If any competitors coach their buddies on my stages, they are in peril of being DQ'd for unsportsmanlike conduct. The applicable rule in IMA-SMM3G rules is 1.7.3:

1.7 A participant shall be disqualified for unsportsmanlike conduct. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include:

...1.7.3 Disruptive behavior likely to disturb, distract or coach other participants while they are shooting.

[DocMedic]

There is times that Coaching is needed, has anyone gone to Ironman? Could you imagine the RO's not helping out on some of those stages, you'd probably wouldn’t have a Good Time. I think the major disconnect here is not everyone that shoots a Major 3gun match is competing to be in the top 25%, They're competing to Have Fun. ROing at RM3G this year I tried to keep the Coaching down to a minimum, but I did end up coaching some shooters who look like they desperately needed help. And the RO's on my stage we made it clear any mags that drop on the ground we'd pick up and offer it back to the shooter only after they have exhausted all resources on their own self. We did that mostly to ensure mags didn't get ran over by vehicles, but no one in the top 50 ever needed the mag that they dropped on the ground because they were prepared if they did dump one. But those who did need that last mag, really appreciate it. No one wants to end up not being able to finish a stage due to losing gear or ammo on the way. Not only does it make you mad/sad but you’re not going to have a Great Time. I'm not sure how many of the "top" shooters realize that many of those people shoot these matches are there Just for FUN. So if the rules allow me to to coach I’ll coach.

Edited September 13, 2011 by DocMedic

[kellyn]

For local matches I am OK with coaching by the RO only when needed for safety or to get the shooter through the stage in a reasonably timely manner (such as if they are really struggling with a long-range target and can't even see where they are missing). I do this only for the less experienced shooters to give them a more positive experience and to help them learn from their mistakes. I will NOT do it for an experienced shooter or where I think coaching will have a significant influence on the outcome of the match.

For a major match, I am absolutely against coaching. I will not do it as the RO, whether on the clock, before the start or even during the stage briefing. At SMM3G we are very careful to present a consistent written and verbal stage briefing. No ad-libbing. Only the CRO answers questions. Any clarifications are clearly documented on the WSB/VSB only as authorized by the RM. If any competitors coach their buddies on my stages, they are in peril of being DQ'd for unsportsmanlike conduct. The applicable rule in IMA-SMM3G rules is 1.7.3:

1.7 A participant shall be disqualified for unsportsmanlike conduct. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include:

...1.7.3 Disruptive behavior likely to disturb, distract or coach other participants while they are shooting.

Steathlyblagga and I agree on something! (ok we agree on most things). And I saw StealthyBlagga come OH SO CLOSE to giving someone (not me!) a procedural for coaching at SMM3G.

While I'm generally against coaching, I too can't stand to watch a new shooter simply struggle away until their time runs out. I will call shots when ROing shooters AT THE CLUB LEVEL.

That being said, I'm 100% against coaching at major matches for everybody. It will never be consistently given and you're really screwing the other competitors. It is supposed to be a match not a hoedown.

[The Antichrome]

As much as it pains me to say it I almost think the big all encompassing USPSA rule book has it right for this topic.

The "big all encompassing USPSA rule book" is almost 1/4" thick! ;-)

[J.Schmitt]

We see many new shooters at major 3 gun matches. You have to start somewhere. A major match can be very hard on the mind. Jesse spoke of his squad being his team. I agree with that. And as a result the coaching that takes place should occur in the walk through. Helping those newer shooters formulate plans to get them through. Even many who do well at stage prep run their plans through the minds of their squad mates to come up with the best plan.

Coaching can be costly. Cameron stated a point to this. From personal experience, I was coached at a major by a RO. I was in a kneeling position firing slugs from a port. I ran my plan and exited from the port, turned and began to stand. The RO told me I left a target. I didn;t have to listen to him but it generated doubt and an OH CRAP response from my brain. I dropped back to the ground and began to load because my mind told be I had shot my plan which meant 1 round left. I loaded and fired. Total time of this on video, about 8 seconds from shot to shot.

I then found out at after scoring from a team mate that I had hit the target 2 times. Video confirmed this. 8 seconds is costly in my opinion.

Jay

[Jesse Tischauser]

Remember non safety related coaching from an RO in USPSA could be argued as RO interference which would result in a reshoot for the competitor if they chose to do so.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I think it is quite obvious from the comments on this thread that many are opposed to any sort of competitor coaching. That and the fact that most shooters at the Ozark match didnt know it was completely legal says to me that sport needs some organization and at least a basic rule book that all matches follow. That rule book could include the obvious safety items, admin, arbitrations, and sportsman like conduct items. The individual small things can be in a short appendix. That way everyone can memorize the main part of the rules for every match. They will just need to to read a page or two of the Appendix to find out what rules differ from match to match.

The other weird rules that nobody can seem to agree on like bonus target penalties, scoring, coupled mags, hi cap mags, amount of ammo in the gun after the buzzer, etc. You know the things that everyone says makes these outlaw matches individual and great but really only confuse the hell out of the newbies and after seeing how many people didn't know coaching was legal confused the big boys too.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[kellyn]

You are SO cute. Getting a man to Mars is easier than getting the various matches to coordinate a rulebook.

[mike cyrwus]

As much as it pains me to say it I almost think the big all encompassing USPSA rule book has it right for this topic.

The "big all encompassing USPSA rule book" is almost 1/4" thick! ;-)

the pages (and rules) are very thin.

[Jesse Tischauser]

You are SO cute. Getting a man to Mars is easier than getting the various matches to coordinate a rulebook.

Not the entire rulebook mind you just the stuff that everyone uses anyways.

I wonder what would the MD's say if 3 Gun Nation required them to use thier rulebook if they wanted to be a part of the points series and show?

[The Antichrome]

As much as it pains me to say it I almost think the big all encompassing USPSA rule book has it right for this topic.

The "big all encompassing USPSA rule book" is almost 1/4" thick! ;-)

the pages (and rules) are very thin.

...and yet, very meaty;-)

[Stlhead]

Why fix what is not broken?

[J.Schmitt]

You are SO cute. Getting a man to Mars is easier than getting the various matches to coordinate a rulebook.

Not the entire rulebook mind you just the stuff that everyone uses anyways.

I wonder what would the MD's say if 3 Gun Nation required them to use thier rulebook if they wanted to be a part of the points series and show?

Maybe it would work, maybe not. Isn't this another of the slippery slopes entering the 3-gun arena.

Would THAT pistol held to the MD's heads be a good way of getting a rule book in place? We call it duress in some circumstances.

Jay

[kellyn]

In prosecution we call that a difficult yet knowing and voluntary choice (do you want to waive those rights OR ELSE?), not duress.

[spanky]

I see ROs all the time yelling "Hit" on the long range steel. Is THAT considered coaching?

[Beaz]

Local matches yes

Major Matches no I missed a target on rifle stage cost me 15 seconds nobody said anything to me, nor did I expect anyone too. I shoot with a lot of the same guys at major matches and yes we are friends and we go over things before the buzzer, thats fine. But once buzzer goes off I'm on my own I'm trying to beat them and vice/versa. That's why its a competition.

[abn-rgr]

I dont mind coaching as long as its across the board. I had a RO at CMMG a couple years ago tell a guy he missed a plate. He was a new shooter and I thanked the RO for doing so. He looked at me and said "I wont do it for you because of the shirt you are wearing". True story. Like I said, do it for one, do it for all. I think in the grand scheme of things, its better to say no coaching...period. It takes the gray area out of it.

[assaulter]

Most sports involve coaching in one way or another. Boxing, MMA, Racing and many others come to mind and they are all "individual sports". I don't think it's a big deal, but I've never seen anything that made me think that it was completely unfair either. Let's face it, typically when someone gets a little "coaching" the damage is already done. At that point it's just controlling the bleeding on the clock.

[MarkCO]

I see ROs all the time yelling "Hit" on the long range steel. Is THAT considered coaching?

Nope, that is considered scoring.

[mike cyrwus]

I need ipsc RO's to score out loud then.

[bigbrowndog]

show me in the rules, for that match and it won't happen. otherwise it will. and sadly it won't ever be consistent. i do agree that we compete against each other individually!!! in this sport so group, squad, or buddy coaching should not take place. but it needs to be clearly in the rules.

Trapr, rule stretcher

[toothandnail]

Last time I checked , one of the alphabet org.'s rule book was 108 pages , IF that gets in 3 gun , I wont be shooting that match or RO'ing.

The alphabet shoots I've been to , while very fun , were more about finding a way to give penalties than shooting , I was there for shooting, not score , so I had fun

Edited September 15, 2011 by toothandnail

[J.Schmitt]

In prosecution we call that a difficult yet knowing and voluntary choice (do you want to waive those rights OR ELSE?), not duress.

Kelly

I really like the way that rolls.

Jay

[ac4wordplay]

For local matches I am OK with coaching by the RO only when needed for safety or to get the shooter through the stage in a reasonably timely manner (such as if they are really struggling with a long-range target and can't even see where they are missing). I do this only for the less experienced shooters to give them a more positive experience and to help them learn from their mistakes. I will NOT do it for an experienced shooter or where I think coaching will have a significant influence on the outcome of the match.

For a major match, I am absolutely against coaching. I will not do it as the RO, whether on the clock, before the start or even during the stage briefing. At SMM3G we are very careful to present a consistent written and verbal stage briefing. No ad-libbing. Only the CRO answers questions. Any clarifications are clearly documented on the WSB/VSB only as authorized by the RM. If any competitors coach their buddies on my stages, they are in peril of being DQ'd for unsportsmanlike conduct. The applicable rule in IMA-SMM3G rules is 1.7.3:

1.7 A participant shall be disqualified for unsportsmanlike conduct. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include:

...1.7.3 Disruptive behavior likely to disturb, distract or coach other participants while they are shooting.

Yes!