Sub par accuracy from Berrys cast, or my own lack of knowledge?

[SERVED_USMC]

Just got the reloader setup this weekend and put out 200 rounds. Load is as follows

180gr Berry plated

4.5 gr Titegroup

1.155 OAL

Shooting out of a M&P .40 4" that I setup for limited before my FGW gun gets here. My groups seem very abnormal. I hit 1 of 10 on a 12x12 target at 40 feet. I havent adjusted my sites since the new load. Would they really be off that much with this load? Excuse my lack of knowledge. this is a new endeavor, and am still in the "testing" stage.

[raz-0]

I had a berry 180 rn load that was 4.5 gr of tg and 1.135 oal. Didn't make major out of my 40m&p, does out of my 5" 1911 and 2011. It was decently accurate though.

Use a kinetic puller and check if your crimp is breaking the plating. Also check around the seating station for shavings. Third test is shoot a target from up close and check for silver pinwheels on the target.

If you compromise the plating, accuracy declines greatly.

[GuyC]

I had a berry 180 rn load that was 4.5 gr of tg and 1.135 oal. Didn't make major out of my 40m&p, does out of my 5" 1911 and 2011. It was decently accurate though.

Use a kinetic puller and check if your crimp is breaking the plating. Also check around the seating station for shavings. Third test is shoot a target from up close and check for silver pinwheels on the target.

If you compromise the plating, accuracy declines greatly.

What is the silver pinwheelesfrom? I saw them once when pulling targets after a match.

[SERVED_USMC]

Im pretty sure the spiral effect is from the plating. But is that from to much crimp? I see it a lot with the guys who shoot lead too

ETA: just pulled the bullet from the casing and its good to go. Not even a line around the bullet from where it was crimped.

Edited August 31, 2011 by SERVED_USMC

[raz-0]

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I had a berry 180 rn load that was 4.5 gr of tg and 1.135 oal. Didn't make major out of my 40m&p, does out of my 5" 1911 and 2011. It was decently accurate though. <br />

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Use a kinetic puller and check if your crimp is breaking the plating. Also check around the seating station for shavings. Third test is shoot a target from up close and check for silver pinwheels on the target. <br />

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If you compromise the plating, accuracy declines greatly.<br />

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What is the silver pinwheelesfrom? I saw them once when pulling targets after a match.<br />

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It's lead. On a plated bullet, you generally shouldn't see it. In my .45 1911 I don't, nor with my 40 1911, 2011, nor m&p. I know one guy who gets them in his major loads out of an m&p, but they are symmetrical. On my factory barrel on mine I was getting only one arm if the pinwheel due to one land-groove transition being sharp enough to break the plating. Replaced it with a storm lake barrel and it went away. dunno if it was due to the damage to the bullet, or the horrible leading I'd get in that groove by the end of a couple monthly matches.

Next thing to check is to mic an unused one, and your pulled one. See if you are undersizing them when loading, or if they are just out of spec. Never saw it with plated, but with moly coated lead, my lee fcd was undersizing them about 0.002", and the accuracy difference was drastic. Went from about 50% hits on an 8" plate at 20 yards, to about a 4" group.

About the only idea I have left.

[Steve Anderson]

I had periodic issues with plated bullets, berry's and west coast. Every now and then I would get keyholing, and I never could track it down or solve it. I assume it was variances in the different lots... I switched to zero, problem solved.

[Joe4d]

Plated bullets are inaccurate, best use for them is to drill a hole down the center and use them for carolina rigged fishing weights.

Frequently they are horrible, if you get everything just right they may be just bad.

I dont see the point of buying bullets that cost more and are less accurate than other options.

[GregJ]

Hmmm, I've been using Berrys off and on for a few years now, and have not noticed them being less accurate that lead or moly coated bullets. I used them to shoot my last IDPA qualifier (indoor range) and they seemed to work quite well for me.

[MarkCO]

Plated bullets are inaccurate

Blanket statements are typically false...

Berry's don't seem to like minor PF in my Glock, Wilson or Bar-Sto barrels. THey also don't seem to do as well with powders that have large presure spikes. When I push my .40s up to about 900 fps or more, they settle down and are very accurate. The price of them has gone up, however they are a decent bullet when loaded to major with medium speed powders.

[Joe4d]

typically but not in this case, do a search going back years and years, you will see the same thing, over and over and over about plated bullets.

[raz-0]

typically but not in this case, do a search going back years and years, you will see the same thing, over and over and over about plated bullets.

Well lets see, I've shot plated in .45 and .40. 40 I did both major and minor. I've not had any serious issues with them. I've also been on here for years, and other than one particular user who ordered a lot of berry's at once, and had all of them be out of spec, I haven't seen much in the way of regular complaints that fall outside of the following.

1) I'm loading plated for the first time, these things don't shoot for beans, it's not worth the money. (they do require some specific considerations in your reloading setup compared to jacketed).

2) I'm trying to make major in an open gun with light plated bullets. (I'm pretty sure this isn't worth the hassle)

I probably went through 10,000 rainier 230 gr .45 bought 2k at a time when I was starting out with USPSA. I never had any issues with them, and they were very accurate. I've probably gone through about 18,000 berry's in .40 bought 2-4k at a time. I haven't had any issues, and although not the most accurate, they are on par with precision delta jacketed for me, and smoke is minimal while velocities are higher for the same charge weight. I like them a little bit better than PD, but very often PD is cheaper, so I've shot a lot of them too. Probably more than anything else. I've also shot thousands of zero bullets, and thousands of montana gold, and thousands of precision moly coated. I've also seen people have probelms with pretty much every brand out there. I've also seen people have issues with most brands. Precision coated that jsut won't feed in their 9mm, montana golds shedding jackets in their .38 super heads with poor accuracy, zeros with undesized 147gr 9mm, etc.... They all have bad lots from time to time.

Heck there are even people who get very good accuracy shooting .357 and .44 magnum in plated. You have to buy the right plated bullets, and they cost more than even montana gold, but they are competitive for similar in those calibers that actually shoot well.

[PHX]

I have had really good luck with berrys. I shoot them in my 9mm, 38 super, and 40. I was wondering what the options would be that are cheaper and better quality. I can go to dillon and by them for less than I could get zeros or montana golds.

Thanks

[jcc7x7]

Like usual!! Some of us like them and some off us don't. I'm in the don't like camp because I've found them to be inconsistant. So I shoot either lead or jacketed depending on the gun, event etc.

Thats some of the enjoyment of reloading finding out what works best in your gun/guns.

Try to buy your components in small lots until you find what you and your guns like

jcc7x7

[buckaroo45]

I shot Berry's 230 gr plated 45's in my 625 at the Fla State USPSA match and dusted the 2nd place guy by 238 points. Chrono'd @ 172PF. Nothing negative to say about them which is what I want from bullets.

[kend]

That's the reason there are Fords and Chevrolets, everybody likes different stuff for one reason or another. Now, instead of floating an opinion on plated bullets I'll try to help answer the original question....

Not even a line around the bullet from where it was crimped.

Not enough crimp is just as bad as too much crimp, if you're not crimping enough to hold the bullet in place the bullet may be setting back in the case from recoil and if that happens every time you fire a round the oal will change with each trigger pull. A shorter oal will increase the pressure which will increase the velocity which will change the point of impact. I usually run .003 - .004 taper crimp and have never had a problem with plated, or any other, bullets.

Load up a mag and shoot all but the last round, measure the oal and if it's shorter than what you loaded them at then you should check the crimp. Also, if you have enough crimp and they're still setting back your expander may be a bit large and not allowing the case to get a grip on the bullet. No amount of crimp will overcome that.

One more thing, if your sights are not adjusted to point of impact it won't matter how accurate the load is 'cause if your accuracy test consists of trying to hit a steel plate at xx yards then you need to give the gun and ammo a chance by at least adjusting the poa/poi.

[smokshwn]

Let's solve it very simply.

Why try to work around an inferior bullet. At best Berry's offers inconsistent performance across different barrels calibers and velocities.

Montana Golds are a far superior product in all calibers and at all velocities, and are cheaper than the Berry's when bought by the case.

To the OP,

Even when loaded with care (crimp etc.) I, along with many other experienced inconsistent performance from Berry's bullets in both 9mm and 40 cal. I believe sometimes this was related to velocity and the jacket being damaged/compromised by the rifling or the inconsistent quality from Berry's. Rampant problems with sizing caused Berry's to offer the option of paying even more for the bullets and having them "doublestruck" to the correct diameter. Either way I gave up on them a while ago and have been much happier with bullets that are known for their consistency and performance which eliminates one unknown out of the reloading equation.

Edited January 1, 2012 by smokshwn

[SERVED_USMC]

I forgot all about this thread.

So here is the update. I loaded up the last few hundred Barrys that I had, put them in a box and left them there. I picked up a few thousand 180gr MG's and went with the same OAL, power and crimp and was putting them exactly where I was aiming. No issued what so ever. I love them.

My professional opinion. Stay away from Barrys!!

In all seriousness, there was no reason that I should have been having such a HUGE issue with these things. I did everything that I could to make them work and it just didnt happen. For the guys that use them successfully, I salute you. For me, Ill stick with the MG's!

[fastarget]

Interesting, have been doing my own little test as well. at 15 and 20 yds with wrists rested on a rolled blanket, the berrys opened up to 5 in flyers, same load with zero and Hap made one ragged hole.

There for a while I was buying the berrys for practice only due to price, but with their costs at this time approaching MG, and zero (if you can find them in stock) it does not make sense to buy Berrys.

[SirLoin]

To those who have had bad experiences with Berrys: until when were you shooting Berrys?

I heard that Berrys started making their bullets more consistent (e.g., everything is double-struck now) over the past year or so, in response to accuracy concerns. Is it possible that you were shooting some of the "older" Berrys?

I started using Berrys last year. I had bought some Atlanta Arms ammo for major/sanctioned matches, since that's what a lot of the pros use. I found out that Atlanta uses Berrys, so I figured the accuracy has to be at least good, because I doubt a lot of pro shooters would stick to inferior bullets even if they're offered free bullets / sponsorship $.

I'm about to go on my yearly component shopping run, so I just want to make sure that I buy some good, affordable bullets, so I'd appreciate people's input on this.

[Babaganoosh]

Berrys is better in some guns, MG is better in some guns, PD is better in some guns.

You gotta figure out what runs the best for you..then order a bunch

[SERVED_USMC]

To those who have had bad experiences with Berrys: until when were you shooting Berrys?

I heard that Berrys started making their bullets more consistent (e.g., everything is double-struck now) over the past year or so, in response to accuracy concerns. Is it possible that you were shooting some of the "older" Berrys?

I started using Berrys last year. I had bought some Atlanta Arms ammo for major/sanctioned matches, since that's what a lot of the pros use. I found out that Atlanta uses Berrys, so I figured the accuracy has to be at least good, because I doubt a lot of pro shooters would stick to inferior bullets even if they're offered free bullets / sponsorship $.

I'm about to go on my yearly component shopping run, so I just want to make sure that I buy some good, affordable bullets, so I'd appreciate people's input on this.

Its been a while since I posted about this. Since then I have started using the 9mm 147gr Berrys for my wifes USPSA load and steel matches. I got such a good deal on them that I thought I would give them a second chance, and Im glad I did. I have had ZERO accuracy/reliability issues with the 9mm bullets. In fact, I ordered another 3K 147s and am going to order 5K 115's for general plinking. I know that the ones I had previously gotten were from an older batch, but couldnt tell you how old they were. I havent gotten any more for .40 yet, but am thinking about ordering 500 of them to give it another go.

From what I can tell after loading them in 1 caliber that loves them and 1 I didnt have great luck with, that they dont like crimp. Is this exactly what my issue was? I couldnt give you a definitive answer one way or another, but based off of my limited experience with them, and the short time frame I had been loading when I had the issues with the 40's (they were the first bullet I tried) I cannot say that it wasnt something I may have done.

Because of that I would tell you to go ahead and order them. Just keep in mind that every gun is different as to what it likes.

[sargenv]

I used West coast 40 cal 180's for a while.. When I kept the velocity down, they shot like a dream.. Minor PF out of my Sig, Para, or S&W 610, they were accurate.. as soon as i ramped up velocity to Major PF, they keyholed and generally did not do so well.

[Yagi]

Same experience here... Minor - No Problem ... but if i use it for major... accuracy suffers... what gives? hmmm

[ebg3]

I think some of the accuracy issues with plated bullets is from them being under-sized. I just finished off 1000 124gr plated round nose bullets that were sized to .355 and the accuracy was terrible with 3 different powders and various oal's. Being a round nose bullet, only the bottom 1/4 of the bullet actually measures .355, so I think they were too small for the bore. To test this theory, I just ordered 1000 125gr .357 plated bullets to try. I'll report back with the results.

Btw, my gun is an SV 2011 with a bull barrel marked .355. I have not slugged the bore but it is very accurate with .355 MG's and Zeros.

[noylj]

I have never had any success with plated bullets (or, at least, thin plated bullets--Gold Dots, that are plated as thick as jacketed, seem to act the same as jacketed).

I agree--they probably should be considered the same as cast lead and probable would perform better if they were at least 0.001" over groove diameter.

I can say that in my guns, the 148gn plated wadcutter and any of the 200gn plated SWCs have been complete failures in the accuracy department. Not quite shotgun patterns, but not far from.

There is only one possible viable reason to shoot thin plated bullets:

you can't find any other bullets.

If you want/need a bullet that has no exposed lead on the base, I prefer JHPs--see Montana Gold or Precision Delta. You can also use the CMJ (completely metal jacketed, I think) bullets if you don't like JHPs.

I had someone tell me that the only safe bullet to use on steel was a thin plated bullet. Never had any issues in the '70s and '80s with steel and my cast bullets, and my bullets were 10-12BHN.

I really wonder who is that uses all the Hornady, Sierra, Remington, Winchester, and Speer jacketed pistol bullets. I could hardly afford a trip to range if I had to use bullets that expensive--and there wouldn't be many trips in a year.

If there is no rule outlawing it, almost all I shoot are cast lead bullets. It was all I used in the late '60s, '70s and early '80s in PPC and IPSC and never had any issue. Haven't been to any of the "new" competitions (currently disabled to the point where I have to sit to shoot), so I have no idea what the concern is about smoke. Even a 21 round rapid fire set didn't produce enough smoke to have ever bothered me (though that did include two fast reloads). I can only conclude that things have changed or the shooters have changed quite a bit...