What's an unrealistic non-shooting requirement...

[shred]

At the end of the day you have to decide if you're testing shooting skills or something else with a side of shooting.

My examples are tests of 'something else' (math, diving) with a shooting tiebreaker. A mile run with a COF at the end is a running test with a side of shooting. Putting 2x6's on edge and making the shooter do a tightrope act is testing their tightrope skills with a shooting tiebreaker. Putting them flat on the ground I think would be testing shooting skills with a side of balance. Putting them flat 12 feet into the air I say turns back into a balance test with a side of shooting.

If a big chunk of the stage score is prop-tossing and monkey-motions (now there was a fun thread) or 40 yard sprints with 3 targets at 3 yards or whatever, we really aren't determining the best USPSA or IPSC shooter, which is what we're all about, at least here in the USPSA/IPSC rules forum.

[Joe4d]

I dont think the rules support that, taking short cuts are allowed, and making people walk or run along a balance beam to shoot is NOT what I want to do at a shooting match, nor is low crawling under wire, or climbing over fences, I'm not interested in a combat obstacle course, Run very many stages like that and you wont have many customers. I have seen some get excessive, but sofar have only refused to shoot one COF, a 6 inch port on a gravel (big rocks not crush and run) surface after a rain, that required crawling around to get to all the targets,

[aztecdriver]

I dont think the rules support that, taking short cuts are allowed, and making people walk or run along a balance beam to shoot is NOT what I want to do at a shooting match, nor is low crawling under wire, or climbing over fences, I'm not interested in a combat obstacle course, Run very many stages like that and you wont have many customers. I have seen some get excessive, but sofar have only refused to shoot one COF, a 6 inch port on a gravel (big rocks not crush and run) surface after a rain, that required crawling around to get to all the targets,

I think the rules support it in so far as you can define a procedure in the WSB and if it's not followed, deliver a procedural. The only question in my mind, does it fit the definition of an unrealistic non-shooting requirement. That's why I posted it, and I thought it would give a good addition to the discussion. It adds a bit of balance to the test of shooting that makes you weigh the advantage of speed vs. the opportunity to take a penalty. I would argue that the addition of the penalty here, actually adds some advantage to the more deliberate shooters as they're deliberate by nature - and the more blazing fast people are going to have to downshift a little. I don't think it's as extreme as the examples you gave, it's not a test of running speed or even a test of tightrope walking... the rail ties were 6" wide. It forced you into shooting stances that were non-standard, and you could choose, at points in the course to take that short cut if you thought dropping 10 pts was worth the speed advantage of not having to stay on the beam (it was a zig zag pattern down range, so you could cut off corners). That, and anyone that had a legitimate challenge with something like vertigo, etc. could still request the special penalty under 10.2.10 and shoot along side the beam -- and at 20% probably would have been right on par.

I'm just trying to point out that while it's a shooting sport, it's a sport, it's intended to be a *little* bit physical. I've got a good 50 lbs on me that I shouldn't, and trust me, I know a stage that is testing something other than shooting when I'm done with it. That doesn't mean I want to stand at a line and fire rounds at a target. It also doesn't mean that I want to see the same old 3 step 4 position stages with just the targets presentations changed. I once had a wise man tell me that had been shooting this sport a lot longer than I have - "I've seen a lot of stages, and generally, I can walk up to one and pretty much tell what is going to be the best way to shoot it, not always, but generally." May not be the exact quote, but it's close. That being said, I've seen a number of great matches and stages that have done an outstanding job of testing a wide variety of additional skills to the shooting, such as quickness, agility and even vision.

I think if they were to have dropped the procedurals for stepping off, shortened the length of the railroad ties so they were distinct "platforms" and allowed freestyle movement between them with all shots coming from atop the platforms, it would have been awesome. If you have 4 different positions mounting the tie, gaining an awkward platform and shooting would have been just as challenging as to have to walk the entire board without stepping off.

Running a mile, running 40 yards, all good examples of stuff we shouldn't be testing... throwing a balance challenge and forcing a non-standard platform - I'm all for that. Can anyone say swinging bridge?

[Poppa Bear]

I shot a stage a week ago that I thought made a nice balance between speed and accuracy with difficulty thrown in.

Basic layout was a side to side COF with long walls and a slot in the middle. You had to shoot all three positions to get to all of the targets. I have good balance and I determined that I could balance with one foot on the fault line and see around the wall enough to engage all but the middle target from either side. Others did not or feel they did not have that kind of balance so they engaged most of the targets through the middle, leaving just the outer targets that had to be taken from the ends. I thought I would end up with a much quicker time than those who shot through the middle with small movements to the side to bring other targets into view. When it was over with I found out that my time was comparable with most other shooters. I could engage more targets without having to move, but I lost time keeping my balance on the fault line, and keeping myself from touching the visual barrier wall that was outside the fault line.

I think physical difficulty has a place in USPSA. The challenge is to supply that difficulty in a way that allows the shooter to take a tougher shot with less physical difficulty, or an easier shot with more physical difficulty. That way the shooter can decide which path they want to take.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Poppa Bear

[Jake Di Vita]

4. Practical shooting competition is a test of expertise in the use of practical

firearms and equipment.

You don't think having to accurately and quickly manipulate a firearm under the stress of fatigue and being out of breath is a test of shooting skill? Really? If anything, under those conditions the true foundations of your ability are readily apparent.

[Singlestack]

4. Practical shooting competition is a test of expertise in the use of practical

firearms and equipment.

You don't think having to accurately and quickly manipulate a firearm under the stress of fatigue and being out of breath is a test of shooting skill? Really? If anything, under those conditions the true foundations of your ability are readily apparent.

It's a shooting match, not a foot race. It's called practical shooting, not biathlon.

[Nik Habicht]

4. Practical shooting competition is a test of expertise in the use of practical

firearms and equipment.

You don't think having to accurately and quickly manipulate a firearm under the stress of fatigue and being out of breath is a test of shooting skill? Really? If anything, under those conditions the true foundations of your ability are readily apparent.

I don't. Really. I think those conditions might be an excellent test of something else, but not of shooting skill....

A good indicator of the competitor's fitness level's ability to cope with physical stress, and the effect of that stress on both mental acuity and fine and gross motor skills --maybe.....

....or something in that vein....

[Skydiver]

How about a low light stage with strobe lights and wandering red laser dots?

[ima45dv8]

Typical back and forth with shoot box up through the center... and barrel covered targets that uncover going further downrange... except the shoot box consist of railroad ties that zigzag down the COF.

WSB, engage targets as they become available from on top of the railroad ties. Stepping off of the railroad tie will incur one procedural per step.

I wouldn't consider it legal to impose such a penalty. A CoF can dictate where I have to be when a shot is fired, but not how I get there. This is freestyle, baby!.

A stage can compel my movement through the use of props or barriers, but not by penalties invented in a WSB.

[shred]

2.3.1.1 b [...] Except as provided in Rule 1.1.5.1, a course designer wishing to compel or limit

competitor movement must do so using target placement,vision barriers and/or physical barriers.

c. Subject to 2.3.1.1(a) and (, an area of the range floor may be declared off limits. The area must be clearly delineated with

Off-Limits Lines (Rule 2.2.1.3). Crossing an Off Limits Line is considered a Forbidden Action.

.....

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

Penalties for non-shooting foot-faults aren't supported by the rules. You could do an off-limits area, but those have to be 2 feet from the fault line and 2 feet high and also zero the stage.

[Stuck in C]

The distance seems a little excessive; it becomes a measure of running speed rather than gun handling and shooting ability. However, the idea is good since the "P" is for practical. True incident: I looked out my window and saw a disreputable-looking person peering in and attempting to open a neighbor's lower level window. I grabbed the phone, dialed 911 and then ran for my pistol-which was in the bedroom up the stairs on the far side of the house. I racked in a round (pistol stored with loaded mag and empty chamber)then ran back to where I could watch and wait for the cops. The guy was driving away when I looked out again. So maybe running for your weapon is a realistic scenario.

[Standby!]

I would rather run, than hose the cof down trying to make up time.

[Flexmoney]

I'm not going to complain about this...

On the other hand... memory stages...

[Nik Habicht]

On the other hand... memory stages...

....might be a place where I kick your ass, or at least close the gap? :D

[JakeMartens]

I'm not going to complain about this...

On the other hand... memory stages...

yeah.....an no shoots

........and hard cover

(we keep going and maybe we can get back to bullseye style competition)

[Jim Norman]

Typical back and forth with shoot box up through the center... and barrel covered targets that uncover going further downrange... except the shoot box consist of railroad ties that zigzag down the COF.

WSB, engage targets as they become available from on top of the railroad ties. Stepping off of the railroad tie will incur one procedural per step.

I wouldn't consider it legal to impose such a penalty. A CoF can dictate where I have to be when a shot is fired, but not how I get there. This is freestyle, baby!.

A stage can compel my movement through the use of props or barriers, but not by penalties invented in a WSB.

With respect, I disagree with this rule. An example of a 'practical' COF would be targets in boats tied along a pier. the pier is a zigzag construction 10 feet above the water. We obviously cannot build a FFZ elevated 10 feet and only 18" wide, but we can put it on the ground, Were teh situation real unless you could fly ou could not cut corners, why can't we compel you to stay in the FFZ? I suppose we could make this into a hallway with 3 foot high walls, but why should we have to? That would make it a very tight place for the RO and potentially a dangerous one. Theh target arrangement would could still allow for freestyle engagement, but you couldn't magicaly fly across the stage.

[Flexmoney]

On the other hand... memory stages...

....might be a place where I kick your ass, or at least close the gap? :D

It's not that I have a bad memory...

[steel1212]

I'm not going to complain about this...

On the other hand... memory stages...

yeah.....an no shoots

........and hard cover

(we keep going and maybe we can get back to bullseye style competition)

Had this basically brought up to me the other day. Somebody was complaining that all I design is stages for me and another spindly C3P0 looking guy to run around on to give us the advantage. First of all, and I'm not saying anybody is doing this but, if you don't like some stages design your own and bring them to the match director. Secondly, no this isn't suppose to be a track meet but if your blaming me because your not in the same shape I'm in thats not my fault. Thirdly, I'm kind of getting tired of hearing, "thats to hard", over come the stage and learn from the experience! This sport is starting to turn into people just wanting wide open brown and not a lot of thinking involved. Think about it like this, how great do you feel when you come off a challenging stage knowing you did well. How about a stage that isn't challenging at all but you just have to shoot it?

With all that in mind I don't think sprinting to a barrel to load some mags onto your belt is bad, I honestly don't think the sprint after that would have been bad either. Like others have said its going to get your heart rate up before you shoot. Now if its then a memory stage after that well that might be asking a little much lol.

Edited August 27, 2011 by steel1212

[spanky]

I'm not going to complain about this...

On the other hand... memory stages...

yeah.....an no shoots

........and hard cover

(we keep going and maybe we can get back to bullseye style competition)

Had this basically brought up to me the other day. Somebody was complaining that all I design is stages for me and another spindly CP3P0 looking guy to run around on to give us the advantage. First of all, and I'm not saying anybody is doing this but, if you don't like some stages design your own and bring them to the match director. Secondly, no this isn't suppose to be a track meet but if your blaming me because your not in the same shape I'm in thats not my fault. Thirdly, I'm kind of getting tired of hearing, "thats to hard", over come the stage and learn from the experience! This sport is starting to turn into people just wanting wide open brown and not a lot of thinking involved. Think about it like this, how great do you feel when you come of a challenging stage knowing you did well. How about a stage that isn't challenging at all but you just have to shoot it?

With all that in mind I don't think sprinting to a barrel to load some mags onto your belt is bad, I honestly don't think the sprint after that would have been bad either. Like others have said its going to get your heart rate up before you shoot. Now if its then a memory stage after that well that might be asking a little much lol.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, Corey. And I'm not even in good shape!

[wide45]

It's been said on similar threads, you have to serve your customers.

[Poppa Bear]

It's been said on similar threads, you have to serve your customers Abilities.

What is good for a level one monthly match with a mix of mostly U to B is not the same as good for a level II or III match with U to GM. You challenge the A and up shooters and they will come back. Make it to easy and it becomes who can literally shoot the quickest. Where is the challenge in that?

[steel1212]

It's been said on similar threads, you have to serve your customers.

It's been said in USPSA that it's a volunteer sport. If the "customer" wants to see something different with the stages then the "customer" should volunteer their time and help with the stages b

[sperman]

IMO, this borders on an unrealistic shooting challenge.

http://northwestsect...he%20Moolah.pdf

I know what the stage designer is trying to accomplish, but I think there are better ways to do it. (I think most shooters would just take the procedural.)

[Skydiver]

IMO, this borders on an unrealistic shooting challenge.

http://northwestsect...he%20Moolah.pdf

I know what the stage designer is trying to accomplish, but I think there are better ways to do it. (I think most shooters would just take the procedural.)

Actually about half the shooters did take one procedural. There were two or three who decided to take two procedurals.

As a Master class shooter talked about this stage, he said that it tested a competition shooting skill: figuring out your hit factor and whether it's worth taking one or two procedurals.

The other stage: Tre Gumbas was another stage that tested if a shooter could figure out hit factors. Was it worth waiting for all the turners or only some of them?

Personally, I hate memory stages, but I also accept that they simulate a realistic shooting challenge of keeping track of the opposition. Did you shoot the target twice or four times?

Edited August 28, 2011 by Skydiver

[wide45]

It's been said on similar threads, you have to serve your customers Abilities.

What is good for a level one monthly match with a mix of mostly U to B is not the same as good for a level II or III match with U to GM. You challenge the A and up shooters and they will come back. Make it to easy and it becomes who can literally shoot the quickest. Where is the challenge in that?

Don't go changing my words in quotes. I don't agree with your change, or statement. In addition, after observing many matches over many years, you will never go wrong if you have an average C class competitor in mind when designing stages.