Is there any harm in using a 22lr conversion in my match rifle?

[Vespid_Wasp]

I have a CMMG conversion that gets swapped in and out of my carbine. It has never caused any issues, yet I am hesitant to use it in my match rifle.

It would be valuable for practice with the same rifle.

The barrel is a BCM 410 stainless SAM-R barrel, with a JP adj gas block and a Cooley comp. Am I going to cause any problems if I clean thoroughly when I swap back?

In my other AR I have switched back and forth with no issues at all. I usually just give a shot of lube to the bolt and carrier.

Anyone have any experience, good or bad, with these? I wonder if I am being over cautious.

[EkuJustice]

It can accumulate crud in the gas tube of the gun. Simple fix is every couple hundred fire a couple 223 rounds to clean it out and fire a couple at the end of a session also

[Cap]

I'm curious about this as well. My biggest fear is increased/premature throat errosion from having a 22LR case jammed in there. It doesnt reall save me money if the 22kit drasticly shortens my barrel life.

[DocMedic]

It's not about IF but WHEN, Myself I never been a fan of .22 conversions, so far in my short shooting experience I've seen 2 rifles blowup after people forget to clean the dog snot out of their rifles after switching back to there .223 loads. I wouldn't risk it specially in a match stainless barrel

[Guy Neill]

While I've never used a 22 LR conversion for an AR, Some time ago I decided that I would go with a dedicated upper instead.

Three factors led to this decision. First, there is glass in the priming compound of rimfire cartridges that can lead to accelerated wear of the bore if not kept clean. Examinations of rimfire barrels have shown wear at the six o'clock position where the glass is deposited. Granted, it will take a lot of rounds, but it is there.

Second, the 22 LR bullet is 0.001" in diameter. Shooting it in a 0.224" barrel means the accuracy (and velocity) will be poor. It can also promote leading the bore.

Third is the gas port. While lead bullets are usable in gas operated guns, harder lead is advisable. The bullets in 22 LR cartridges is not especially hard, meaning there is the possibility of both leading the bore and fouling the gas port/tube.

Just my thoughts.

Guy

[prreed10]

I agree with Guy. When I got a .22 AR, it was a dedicated upper.

[dmshozer1]

It's not about IF but WHEN, Myself I never been a fan of .22 conversions, so far in my short shooting experience I've seen 2 rifles blowup after people forget to clean the dog snot out of their rifles after switching back to there .223 loads. I wouldn't risk it specially in a match stainless barrel

I have been using a Ciner conversion in different Ar's for the last seven years with zero problems that I knew of.

No fouling, no gas port problems, no loss in accuracy that I could tell but the barrels I was using were not of the best quality so I could not tell for sure.

For the last two years I have been using a 20" Wilson s/s 1/8 twist very accurate barrel. On a good day from a rest it shoots 2" groups at 300 yds.

I was skeptical to use the conversion in it so I called my friend who has a very expensive bore scope.

I thoroughly cleaned the barrel, bore scoped it, then shot 550 rds. of Federal bulk pack through it and then scoped it with out cleaning it. First few inches were dirty with what appeared to be some sort of black crud? The rest of the barrel was as before I shot it. Perfectly clean! No leading, no fouling what so ever. Ran a dry patch down the barrel and out came the black crud. Extra lube on the 22's, don't know but the barrel now looked like it had never been shot.

After two years of shooting thousands of 22's through it, the accuracy is the same.

We bore scoped it a few weeks ago and the barrel is showing normal throat erosion and wear.

In the last year our club and others have got into 22 rifle matches and lots of practice for 3gun events and except for dealing with poor ammo, no problems.

Been at this game for a long time and have never heard of anyone blowing up there gun because of shooting 22's through it.I suppose it is possible but I don't know how.

I forgot, we ran the same experiment on two other rifles and they were not fouled either.

Can't explain it but there you have it!

[fueddy]

I find all of this awesome info...though making me dizzy lol I've been using a CMMG conversion for awhile now and have had the same worries as to the down sides. I do clean the gas tube with long pipe cleans and swab the bbl out often enough. Haven't seen any issues besides the upper gets very gritty from the 22lr....I only use fmj too.

[StealthyBlagga]

I ran a Ciener conversion in my ARs for a long while. It works pretty well and is surprisingly accurate (2" at 50 yards). The downside is that you get a lot of gas blowback through the gas tube, meaning you get to breath the fumes, and the receiver seems to fill up with crud at an ungodly rate. I did see some bore leading with certain ammo, and so I can see how it might cause an over-pressure problem with .223 if you did not scrub the bore first. Also, be aware that your muzzle brake may start to fill up with lead, which can be a PITA to clean out and may not burn off even after firing a lot of .223 ammo.

Nowadays, to alleviate the above issues, I run the same Ciener kit in an old match barrel/upper dedicated to rimfire use. The barrel was originally a Shaw 1:9 .223 stainless match barrel, but it long ago exceeded its useful life through wicked throat erosion. I simply chopped this crappy barrel to 18" (hacksaw followed by the brass screw trick), welded up the gas port (my welds look like crap), threw it together in an old and out-of-spec upper receiver, added a $30 red dot, and then slapped the upper on top of a homeless Bushmaster lower with an over-tight mag well. In short, I built a surprisingly accurate and reliable training rifle that handles very much like my .223 match rifle but, because almost all the parts are complete crap, I have no qualms about abusing it mercilessly.

Photos below of the POS .22 alongside my new match rifle. Also shown is a 50 yard 10-shot group from the .22 with crappy Wal Mart bulk pack ammo:

Edited August 10, 2011 by StealthyBlagga

[saibot]

It's not about IF but WHEN, Myself I never been a fan of .22 conversions, so far in my short shooting experience I've seen 2 rifles blowup after people forget to clean the dog snot out of their rifles after switching back to there .223 loads. I wouldn't risk it specially in a match stainless barrel

I have been using a Ciner conversion in different Ar's for the last seven years with zero problems that I knew of.

No fouling, no gas port problems, no loss in accuracy that I could tell but the barrels I was using were not of the best quality so I could not tell for sure.

For the last two years I have been using a 20" Wilson s/s 1/8 twist very accurate barrel. On a good day from a rest it shoots 2" groups at 300 yds.

I was skeptical to use the conversion in it so I called my friend who has a very expensive bore scope.

I thoroughly cleaned the barrel, bore scoped it, then shot 550 rds. of Federal bulk pack through it and then scoped it with out cleaning it. First few inches were dirty with what appeared to be some sort of black crud? The rest of the barrel was as before I shot it. Perfectly clean! No leading, no fouling what so ever. Ran a dry patch down the barrel and out came the black crud. Extra lube on the 22's, don't know but the barrel now looked like it had never been shot.

After two years of shooting thousands of 22's through it, the accuracy is the same.

We bore scoped it a few weeks ago and the barrel is showing normal throat erosion and wear.

In the last year our club and others have got into 22 rifle matches and lots of practice for 3gun events and except for dealing with poor ammo, no problems.

Been at this game for a long time and have never heard of anyone blowing up there gun because of shooting 22's through it.I suppose it is possible but I don't know how.

I forgot, we ran the same experiment on two other rifles and they were not fouled either.

Can't explain it but there you have it!

Dmshozer1

Thanks for posting this! It seems like there is so much "info" just floating around that is just a "feeling" about something. I love it when actual data is posted like with your bore scope findings. No disrespect intended to the other posters at all, just saying, this is just the info I needed to make an informed decision for myself since I had wondered the same with my CMMG kit. I think it was Edward Deming that said, "In God we trust, all others bring data."

I wish I had access to a bore scope myself.

[Guy Neill]

I agree - hard data is head and heels over supposition.

As I stated, I was not basing on data or experience with the conversion units, so I'm glad we have data to make decisions with.

Also, I might add that the test rifles that saw the barrels sections at CCI had had many tens of thousands of rounds through them from production lot ammo testing. That part was not supposition, but the extrapolation to the conversion units was.

Thanks to those giving us real data.

Guy

[dmshozer1]

It's not about IF but WHEN, Myself I never been a fan of .22 conversions, so far in my short shooting experience I've seen 2 rifles blowup after people forget to clean the dog snot out of their rifles after switching back to there .223 loads. I wouldn't risk it specially in a match stainless barrel

I have been using a Ciner conversion in different Ar's for the last seven years with zero problems that I knew of.

No fouling, no gas port problems, no loss in accuracy that I could tell but the barrels I was using were not of the best quality so I could not tell for sure.

For the last two years I have been using a 20" Wilson s/s 1/8 twist very accurate barrel. On a good day from a rest it shoots 2" groups at 300 yds.

I was skeptical to use the conversion in it so I called my friend who has a very expensive bore scope.

I thoroughly cleaned the barrel, bore scoped it, then shot 550 rds. of Federal bulk pack through it and then scoped it with out cleaning it. First few inches were dirty with what appeared to be some sort of black crud? The rest of the barrel was as before I shot it. Perfectly clean! No leading, no fouling what so ever. Ran a dry patch down the barrel and out came the black crud. Extra lube on the 22's, don't know but the barrel now looked like it had never been shot.

After two years of shooting thousands of 22's through it, the accuracy is the same.

We bore scoped it a few weeks ago and the barrel is showing normal throat erosion and wear.

In the last year our club and others have got into 22 rifle matches and lots of practice for 3gun events and except for dealing with poor ammo, no problems.

Been at this game for a long time and have never heard of anyone blowing up there gun because of shooting 22's through it.I suppose it is possible but I don't know how.

I forgot, we ran the same experiment on two other rifles and they were not fouled either.

Can't explain it but there you have it!

Dmshozer1

Thanks for posting this! It seems like there is so much "info" just floating around that is just a "feeling" about something. I love it when actual data is posted like with your bore scope findings. No disrespect intended to the other posters at all, just saying, this is just the info I needed to make an informed decision for myself since I had wondered the same with my CMMG kit. I think it was Edward Deming that said, "In God we trust, all others bring data."

I wish I had access to a bore scope myself.

Thanks,

I appreciate that.

[StealthyBlagga]

I found an old photo of my Miculek brake showing the lead buildup due to firing a lot of .22LR ammo. The lead probably did not affect accuracy yet, but neither did it burn off easily just from firing .223 rounds. For this reason alone, I recommend the dedicated upper approach if possible.

[TRUBL]

Using a conversion in your match upper probably isn't a bad thing or a good thing. Lots of things to consider like mentioned above. But heres one more......

Do you really want to be cranking on your sights back and forth between the RF conversion and .223 CF rounds?

For that reason alone.....people end up getting a dedicated upper.

[maddox]

.22lr in moderation is fine. If you want to shoot more .22lr than 5.56 you should get a dedicated upper.

[zero-down]

I found an old photo of my Miculek brake showing the lead buildup due to firing a lot of .22LR ammo. The lead probably did not affect accuracy yet, but neither did it burn off easily just from firing .223 rounds. For this reason alone, I recommend the dedicated upper approach if possible.

I had the same experience. I was using a Stag rifle and 22 conversion as my trainer and my Mic. comp looked even worse than this. It was a royal PIA to get all the crap out. CMMG makes a 22 barrel (1:16) for $99. Use that with an upper + your 22 conversion and you'll have a dedicated 22 upper. Its worth the money IMO.

[GregJ]

I dont think I would in a match rifle, but if you have a carbine, that might be a better choice. A couple of years ago I picked up Tactical Machining AR carbine pretty cheap, primarily to play around with local 2 gun matches. I put a Leupold Mark AR 1-4 scope on it, and it's pretty accurate. I recently picked up a Spikes Tactical 22 conversion for it, and have been pleasantly suprised with the accuracy of this combo. It's fun as hell, and minute-of-squirrel accurate. What more could one ask for?

[GregJ]

Played with my AR with Spikes Tactical 22 conversion today, thought I would put a pic of the target up. About 250 rounds from 25yrds. Ammo was CCI Tactical 22 copper jacketed. The AR is a Tactical Machining carbine with Leupold Mark AR 1.5-4 This thing is just too much fun.

[DyNo!]

Played with my AR with Spikes Tactical 22 conversion today, thought I would put a pic of the target up. About 250 rounds from 25yrds. Ammo was CCI Tactical 22 copper jacketed. The AR is a Tactical Machining carbine with Leupold Mark AR 1.5-4 This thing is just too much fun.

Plenty of fun and good practice too!

ST-22 Video

With that being said, I have both a dedicated upper and a drop in chamber adapter. I shoot only plated .22lr out of my 5.56 and even then, very infrequently - just out of paranoia.

Edited August 20, 2011 by DyNo!

[Tim/GA]

We used the conversions in M16s for years in the Army when we were stuck with indoor ranges stationed/deployed where nothing else was available, no problems. Just cannot see the slower, soft lead 22s doing any damage compared to the high pressure 5.56 jacketed. How many 1000s can you shoot thru a 22 without damage to the barrel? The bolt "carrier" is not reciprocating in the receiver (just the bolt part that rides on the conversion) and the chamber is protected by the insert that fits in the from the unit.

I use one in my carbine now (with Miculek comp)and have never seen any issues with leading, fouling or wear. At the local steel match it is common for shooters to shoot their pistol and then a 2nd gun, most often either a 22pistol or carbine. I throw the Ceiner kit in mine and get some practice on transitions in the match. I find that at those ranges the 22 hits 1" lower than the 5.56 (but remember that with a 200yd zero, the ARs shoot about 2 1/2" below the POA at these close ranges) and I do NOT change my sight setting.

Pros- Cheaper, can use the exact same gun as you compete with/normally shoot, uses the same optic (big deal if you use a relatively expensive optic). Uses the same good competition trigger (of course a dedicated upper does do this as well) While the recoil is not exactly the same, 5.56 with a good comp is pretty much recoil free and I can work short in targets just about the same with either setup

Cons- "might" lead the barrel or comp, not the most accurate with 22s. but plenty good out to 25 yds for practice.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Tim/GA

[Ryan N]

This is great stuff. I have had the same concerns as you guys. I have a CMMG kit and it runs great with Federal bulk. I really don't use the 22lr that much, but it is a useful tool. I have shot one steel match with the 22kit and it is a heck of a lot of fun. I really like the idea of using my actual 3 gun rifle in the steel match(22lr only). Sure, a dedicated 22lr rifle can be made up, but it would be costly give it the same "feel" as my 3 gun rifle. I think I will continue using my 22lr kit in moderation.

However, if I used a 22lr AR a bunch, I might spring for a dedicated 22lr AR.

[Lead-Head]

I picked up a CMMG conversion at the pro-am match. It is unlike any I have seen before. It is stainless except for where it locks the bolt head into the barrel extension, this apprear to be brass. I put 200 rounds of federal (wal-mart) HP though it this weekend and it never even hicupped. I should have gotten one of these years ago.

I dedicated an old 1:12 A1 upper to it. No problen knocking over 5 inch plates at 40-50 yards.

I wonder if I put a fake can on the end of my barrel, anyone would notice I was shooting a 22 LR on the close rifle next week at Ozarks.