Can one handlle empty magazines at the safe table?

[arnie]

At an IDPA match there is a safe table where one can handle their gun. Ammunition is not to be handled at the safe table. Can one handle empty magazines at the safe table?

Edited June 13, 2011 by arnie

[bradthegunmaniac]

Yes

[remoandiris]

You should ask the MD until you know the range rules. Ranges may have different rules than IDPA, SASS or USPSA. If the range wants it's rules to be THE rule, that is how it is.

With that said, empty mags normally can be handled at a safe table/area.

Edited June 13, 2011 by remoandiris

[davehorn]

Like Remo said. In most cases the answer is yes, but different ranges have different rules. For example, some say no ammo allowed IN safe area, others just say no HANDLING of ammo in safe area. Ask the MD.

[Classic_jon]

I would say that while you can do it, I would not. One time you may reach into the bag and grab a mag with ammo and get popped for it. Also, if you are popping a mag in and out of a gun in a safety area without a good reason (like checking a mag drop free or slide stop malfunction) you will probably make any SO/RO's a bit nervous. In my opinion, just not a good habit to get into for safety reasons mainly.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Classic_jon

[Sidewinder6]

In most of the areas I have been to this is grounds for DQ. Add to that one club had a new shooter wanting to practice his mag changes when he was alone and then ended up with an ND in the safety area. That ended any further debate.

[wurm]

Page 80 of the rule book

"Safe Area: A designated area to handle UNLOADED guns. NO

AMMUNITION can be handled in a safe area."

I don't see anything about magazines, just ammunition. Safe areas are mentioned a few other places in the rule book but it only mentions handling unloaded firearms. No mention of unloaded magazines.

[solaritx]

I have always touched base with someone of authority and asked.

Which brings up an interesting subject: with the increasing number of CHL's and those that shoot their carry gun....exactly where does one unload their carry weapon before the match and then recharge it after the match....because one can not handle ammo in the safe area?

At the ranges here, common sense takes place and we want the shooter to "prepare" their weapon in a safe area rather than at the car, etc.

How does your range handle CHL guns?

[usmc1974]

Why tempt fate? fate almost always wins. just my two cents

[Classic_jon]

I have always touched base with someone of authority and asked.

Which brings up an interesting subject: with the increasing number of CHL's and those that shoot their carry gun....exactly where does one unload their carry weapon before the match and then recharge it after the match....because one can not handle ammo in the safe area?

At the ranges here, common sense takes place and we want the shooter to "prepare" their weapon in a safe area rather than at the car, etc.

How does your range handle CHL guns?

At any match I have been to, if there is a concealed handgun/loaded weapon etc. The person goes and finds an MD/SO and tells them they need to unload and they BOTH go to a pre-designated area and unload the weapon. The key thing here is *in the presence of an MD/SO that KNOWS that you are going to be messing with a loaded gun.

In all honesty, going back to the original question, to me this is a pretty black and white issue with no gray area at all. Be it a mag, a Tupperware dish, or a cardboard box that could contain ammo, don't mess with ammo or "ammo carrying devices" in the safe area for safety reasons.

If I just *had* to mess with a mag, I would go get a MD/SO and tell them what I needed to do and ask them how they wanted to handle it. This is both so that I do not get a potential DQ and so that everyone else is safe.

As a SO/MD this is a safety issue and where things like that are concerned, better to be safe than sorry.

Edit for spelling

Edited June 15, 2011 by Classic_jon

[mildot1]

I've never seen an IDPA rule book, but since one person posted the page and section that refers to the answer I would take that as the answer. I had someone try to tell me that I could not have loaded mags on my belt in the safe area at a USPSA match, pure BS.

It's only a DQ offense if it is stated in the rule's.

[buckaroo45]

My first, and current, club started me with NO ammo or mags at the safe table. Thats why it's considered safe. Therefore, regardless of whatever rules are in effect I do not take mags or ammo to the safe table. No question, no problem.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

"Don't shoot fast, unless you also shoot good." Clint Smith - Thunder Ranch

[BayouSlide]

I've never seen an IDPA rule book, but since one person posted the page and section that refers to the answer I would take that as the answer. I had someone try to tell me that I could not have loaded mags on my belt in the safe area at a USPSA match, pure BS.

It's only a DQ offense if it is stated in the rule's.

In mag holders on your belt, or in your bag, you're not handling ammunition. Nor are you if you are handling empty mags in the safe area. USPSA rules are very specific about match DQs for unsafe gun handling in the safe area:

10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training

rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1.

The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a

Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on

their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor

does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the

Safety Area.

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate tipos typos.

Edited June 15, 2011 by BayouSlide

[Classic_jon]

Similar rules in IDPA:

Page 8

"S 8. The normal condition of pistols not actually engaged is

holstered and unloaded, with hammer down and magazine

removed. Loaded firearms may only be handled in the safe

area when supervised by the MD or a SO. Magazines and

speedloaders may be reloaded while off the firing line, but the

contestant’s firearm may be loaded or unloaded only under the

direction of the SO. (See note at end of Safety Rules regarding

Hot and Cold ranges.)

NOTE: The question of Hot and Cold ranges at the local club

level is subject to individual club policy. This issue is the sole

responsibility of local clubs and is beyond IDPA control. Matches

sanctioned by IDPA are required to have Cold ranges. A cold

range is defined as a range where all shooters must be unloaded

unless under the supervision of a SO. Unless your club has a

policy of a HOT range, all firearms should be unloaded except

when on the firing line."

Also in the Appendix on page 80:

"Safe Area: A designated area to handle UNLOADED guns. NO

AMMUNITION can be handled in a safe area."

[xd1977]

Handling unloaded mags in the safe area should not grounds for a DQ. When you are initially putting on your gear, you should be in the safe area and you have to handle these "unloaded mags" anyway. How can someone justify a DQ for unloaded mags in a safe area...just dosen't make sense.

[JFlowers]

Thread drift - The CCW/CHL Handling question

At the USPSA SC State Championship, there was a table setup just outside the main gate with a large sign for CCW to Unload here. That meant the "Cold Range" was never violated and a safe area for hot unloads was not needed in the match area. I thought this was a very good solution. Now, how many people maintained a CCW handgun hot in their vehicle I can not say, but I just thought it was a good solution and should share.

[Classic_jon]

Handling unloaded mags in the safe area should not grounds for a DQ. When you are initially putting on your gear, you should be in the safe area and you have to handle these "unloaded mags" anyway. How can someone justify a DQ for unloaded mags in a safe area...just dosen't make sense.

If you read what I said previously, there is a potential DQ *if* you accidentally grab a mag with ammo in it at the safety table. Why take the risk of an accident blowing your match that can be easily prevented by not handling them at all?

Why would you handle an unloaded mag at the safety table if you are just putting on equipment? It would make more sense logically to "gear up" and then walk away from the safety table and then pull out the mags. You can't load a mag up without having ammo out and you cant handle ammo at the safety table so I am not seeing where you "..have to handle an unloaded mag..." at the safety table?

My .06 worth is this, People can do what they want in this but I am not going to handle a mag at the safety table if I can at all avoid it...just not worth the risk of an Oops that causes a DQ and loss of my entry fee.

[Strick]

Handling unloaded mags in the safe area should not grounds for a DQ. When you are initially putting on your gear, you should be in the safe area and you have to handle these "unloaded mags" anyway. How can someone justify a DQ for unloaded mags in a safe area...just dosen't make sense.

The only thing you should be putting on while at the safe area is your gun. The safe area is not a dressing room where you put on your holster, mag pouches, mags, vest, etc...

[rupture]

What if you have a mag release issue or something similar. You have to be able to handle empty mags at the safe area to test certain functions.

[Poppa Bear]

In regards to the CCW question most ranges I have been at have a designated safe area just for unloading and showing clear any CCW carried into/onto the range. Some request that you notify an RO/SO to oversee the handling. Some just leave it up to the shooter to perform it safely themselves. The first is usually at a smaller more compact range with limited space. The second is usually at a larger range with unused berms that can be used for that purpose.

Most people I know just remove the gun while in the holster and leave it all in their vehicle until they are done with the match. After the match is completed they put it back on.

[twodownzero]

You should ask the MD until you know the range rules. Ranges may have different rules than IDPA, SASS or USPSA. If the range wants it's rules to be THE rule, that is how it is.

There are NO local rules in USPSA without permission of the USPSA. If any MD is enforcing a rule other than the USPSA rules at a USPSA match, you need to get in contact with your state section coordinator. This is a rampant and serious problem and needs to be fixed. There are no local rules in USPSA, the USPSA has the exclusive right to determine what is and isn't a USPSA match, and clubs do NOT have the option to make their own rules or dictate how a match is run.

[Classic_jon]

What if you have a mag release issue or something similar. You have to be able to handle empty mags at the safe area to test certain functions.

This whole question boils down to common sense. Why are people trying to make it so hard?

I actually answered this above in my first post on this topic. This boils down to 1) knowing the rulebook and 2) using common courtesy to the SO/MD's and 3) common sense safety.

If I saw a person handling a mag at the safe table I know that *I* would do my job as an SO and walk over there and *politely* talk to the person and ask about the mag and if it was loaded. Then, if it was not loaded, I would ask that they not handle a mag at the safety table for safety reasons or if the mag they were handling was loaded they would get a DQ. It really is that simple.

[sirveyr]

What if you have a mag release issue or something similar. You have to be able to handle empty mags at the safe area to test certain functions.

This whole question boils down to common sense. Why are people trying to make it so hard?

I actually answered this above in my first post on this topic. This boils down to 1) knowing the rulebook and 2) using common courtesy to the SO/MD's and 3) common sense safety.

If I saw a person handling a mag at the safe table I know that *I* would do my job as an SO and walk over there and *politely* talk to the person and ask about the mag and if it was loaded. Then, if it was not loaded, I would ask that they not handle a mag at the safety table for safety reasons or if the mag they were handling was loaded they would get a DQ. It really is that simple.

What if they refused to stop handling an unloaded mag within the safe area? Then what?

[juan]

What if you have a mag release issue or something similar. You have to be able to handle empty mags at the safe area to test certain functions.

This whole question boils down to common sense. Why are people trying to make it so hard?

I actually answered this above in my first post on this topic. This boils down to 1) knowing the rulebook and 2) using common courtesy to the SO/MD's and 3) common sense safety.

If I saw a person handling a mag at the safe table I know that *I* would do my job as an SO and walk over there and *politely* talk to the person and ask about the mag and if it was loaded. Then, if it was not loaded, I would ask that they not handle a mag at the safety table for safety reasons or if the mag they were handling was loaded they would get a DQ. It really is that simple.

What if they refused to stop handling an unloaded mag within the safe area? Then what?

If you came up to me at a match. and said I could not handle my unloaded mags at the safe table , I would tell you to go away.

[Classic_jon]

If I saw a person handling a mag at the safe table I know that *I* would do my job as an SO and walk over there and *politely* talk to the person and ask about the mag and if it was loaded. Then, if it was not loaded, I would ask that they not handle a mag at the safety table for safety reasons or if the mag they were handling was loaded they would get a DQ. It really is that simple.

What if they refused to stop handling an unloaded mag within the safe area? Then what?

If you came up to me at a match. and said I could not handle my unloaded mags at the safe table , I would tell you to go away.

After this post I am going to stop because this is getting silly.

As I said above, currently, there is no rule in IDPA that says you can not handle an *unloaded mag* at the safety table but out of common sense safety and respect for the SO's and MD's of the match the best thing to do is to not tempt fate. To me it is like having a loaded mag lying around when you clean your gun or when you are dry firing. You may do so and not have an ND for years and years but sooner or later you will "practice a mag change" or "function check your gun" and put a hole in something because you grabbed the wrong mag.

At this point I am stopping and am going to let everyone else play the "what if" and "rules lawyer" game but to me, safety of myself and other shooters is #1. If you want to handle a mag in the safe area, go ahead and tempt fate, just don't do it near me.