Steve Koski Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Our club has a rule against handling mags & speedloaders in the safe area. But I'm not sure where/when that got started. It's certainly not required by the IDPA rulebook. Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1911 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Our club has a rule against handling mags & speedloaders in the safe area. But I'm not sure where/when that got started. It's certainly not required by the IDPA rulebook. I just assume that sort type of rule, so I don't bring my whole bag to the safe area, nor do I have any speedloaders or mags on my belt. I may be going a bit overboard, but it would suck to get DQ'ed for something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Then there IS a problem if the gun cannot fire because of a mag disconnect - BHP/S&W M&P - everyone would get their panties in a bunch because of a gun being cocked. I suggest getting another shooter to verify that the mag is indeen empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben b. Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) Best policy is to stick to the IDPA safety rules at an IDPA match, or the USPSA safety rules at a USPSA match. They are all written out and as such they should not be subject to some person's "Personal Rule #1 for Safety", which may not be consistent with the written safety rules. There is no rule against handling empty mags at the safety table mags in IDPA. There is no rule against handling empty mags at the safety table in USPSA, but dummy rounds count as real ammo. Local rules suck. I encourage all SO/RO and MDs to follow the written rules for the organization and not make things up and ramrod them based on their SO/RO authority, especially if they are a "club RO" or local good ole boy and haven't taken the course. Edited July 14, 2011 by ben b. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1911 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Like it or not, some clubs have more stringent rules. Their club, their rules. So I do my best to take a conservative approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) You should ask the MD until you know the range rules. Ranges may have different rules than IDPA, SASS or USPSA. If the range wants it's rules to be THE rule, that is how it is. There are NO local rules in USPSA without permission of the USPSA. If any MD is enforcing a rule other than the USPSA rules at a USPSA match, you need to get in contact with your state section coordinator. This is a rampant and serious problem and needs to be fixed. There are no local rules in USPSA, the USPSA has the exclusive right to determine what is and isn't a USPSA match, and clubs do NOT have the option to make their own rules or dictate how a match is run. I completely DISAGREE with you. IMO, USPSA/IDPA/SASS rules do NOT trump private range rules UNLESS the range owner, range board of directors, or some other range approving body allows USPSA rules to take precedence. USPSA matches are ALLOWED to use the range property, not the other way around. USPSA members who are NOT range members are GUESTS of the range. If a guest (or range member for that matter) violates a range rule (exceeding the range speed limit when driving in, not parking in designated areas, not wearing eye or hearing protection or whatever), they can and should be told (not asked) to leave, regardless of the USPSA match status. Ranges do NOT give up their rules just because it is USPSA/IDPA/SASS match day. Edited July 15, 2011 by remoandiris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astephenson Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Local rules suck. I encourage all SO/RO and MDs to follow the written rules for the organization and not make things up and ramrod them based on their SO/RO authority, especially if they are a "club RO" or local good ole boy and haven't taken the course. Oftentimes range policy regarding safety issues supersedes any rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 You should ask the MD until you know the range rules. Ranges may have different rules than IDPA, SASS or USPSA. If the range wants it's rules to be THE rule, that is how it is. There are NO local rules in USPSA without permission of the USPSA. If any MD is enforcing a rule other than the USPSA rules at a USPSA match, you need to get in contact with your state section coordinator. This is a rampant and serious problem and needs to be fixed. There are no local rules in USPSA, the USPSA has the exclusive right to determine what is and isn't a USPSA match, and clubs do NOT have the option to make their own rules or dictate how a match is run. I completely DISAGREE with you. IMO, USPSA/IDPA/SASS rules do NOT trump private range rules UNLESS the range owner, range board of directors, or some other range approving body allows USPSA rules to take precedence. USPSA matches are ALLOWED to use the range property, not the other way around. USPSA members who are NOT range members are GUESTS of the range. If a guest (or range member for that matter) violates a range rule (exceeding the range speed limit when driving in, not parking in designated areas, not wearing eye or hearing protection or whatever), they can and should be told (not asked) to leave, regardless of the USPSA match status. Ranges do NOT give up their rules just because it is USPSA/IDPA/SASS match day. Actually they do. Part of the application process for a club to hold USPSA matches is to agree to hold the matches by USPSA rules, or to apply for a waiver if there is a local issue, typically limited to legal restrictions. So, no, at a USPSA match a competitor may not be disqualified for handling an empty magazine at a safe table, or for having loaded magazines on their belt, in their pocket or bag, as long as those magazines are not handled.... I've shot a lot of matches at a lot of clubs, and have occasionally observed or tried to improve a contentious relationship between a USPSA match and a host facility. Generally speaking, most facilities come around when someone calmly explains USPSA safety rules, and candidly answers any questions or concerns. And I totally agree about USPSA members -- who are not host facility members -- being guests, and needing to behave in an appropriate manner. Most do, in my experience.... None of that leaves the hosting facility totally without teeth however. Ultimately, running USPSA matches safely and successfully requires cooperation between USPSA (HQ, match staff, competitors, ROs, Section Coordinators, Area Directors) and the local facility (Owners, members, club's board of directors.) AS long as everyone works toward the same goal and communicates, most of these issues can be handled in a manner that is palatable to all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Actually they do. Part of the application process for a club to hold USPSA matches is to agree to hold the matches by USPSA rules, or to apply for a waiver if there is a local issue, typically limited to legal restrictions. So, no, at a USPSA match a competitor may not be disqualified for handling an empty magazine at a safe table, or for having loaded magazines on their belt, in their pocket or bag, as long as those magazines are not handled.... As we all know, things change over time. USPSA rules change. Range rules could change. People responsible for running the range change. Opinions on what is safe change. If, over time, range rules change it would nullify any agreement with USPSA. If the MD insists on ignoring range rules, they can and likely would be told to take their match elsewhere. For example, if the range demands all shots on steel be no closer than 30 feet, yet the MD ignores that and puts them at 23 feet, the range bosses could shut down the USPSA match. I'm not saying it does/will happen, but it could and the range would be well within their rights. If a range rule says all pistols have slides locked to the rear once cleared and placed into holsters, that is the range rule. Follow it or find somewhere else to hold matches. If the range has no safe tables and says use the trunk of a car or bed of a truck, that is where firearms are handled. All I'm saying is unless a range owner, board of director or other body agrees to match rules, the match has to follow the range's rules. If the match rules are stricter than the range rules, fine. But a range does not have to follow match rules if they are less strict than range rules. Afterall, the match doesn't own the property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben b. Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Tempest in a teapot. At the ~12 diff't clubs/ranges I've been to, the safe tables are placed there by the MD/club for the matches, and safety area are not used in general range use, as general range shooters (not shooting a match) do their stuff at the range tables. It is legal in IDPA to handle empty mags at the safety area. If an IDPA match is underway, an IDPA shooter can not and should not be disqualified for doing so in accordance with the IDPA rules. The examples I have seen of this issue have been: 1) a non-match-attendee range person declaring this unsafe, who had no ability to show such a range rule but loudly declared it. 2) fellow match attendees who think this is against the rules and go quiet or say "Oh, I didn't know that" when the rule book is checked. I have been one such person who thought USPSA disallowed empty mag handling and I checked the rule book myself. I have seen considerable amounts of "This is a range rule" that is not in fact a range rule, but is something someone mis-remembered or made up on their own. Especially at my home range, we had a few loud-mouthed fellows who recited all sorts of range rules that just didn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1911 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) I have seen considerable amounts of "This is a range rule" that is not in fact a range rule, but is something someone mis-remembered or made up on their own. Especially at my home range, we had a few loud-mouthed fellows who recited all sorts of range rules that just didn't exist. I have seen that sort of thing at several ranges. Which is one of the reasons that I now take a conservative approach. I'd rather not get into the argument in the first place, even if I might win it eventually. Edited July 15, 2011 by M1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Actually they do. Part of the application process for a club to hold USPSA matches is to agree to hold the matches by USPSA rules, or to apply for a waiver if there is a local issue, typically limited to legal restrictions. So, no, at a USPSA match a competitor may not be disqualified for handling an empty magazine at a safe table, or for having loaded magazines on their belt, in their pocket or bag, as long as those magazines are not handled.... As we all know, things change over time. USPSA rules change. Range rules could change. People responsible for running the range change. Opinions on what is safe change. If, over time, range rules change it would nullify any agreement with USPSA. If the MD insists on ignoring range rules, they can and likely would be told to take their match elsewhere. For example, if the range demands all shots on steel be no closer than 30 feet, yet the MD ignores that and puts them at 23 feet, the range bosses could shut down the USPSA match. I'm not saying it does/will happen, but it could and the range would be well within their rights. If a range rule says all pistols have slides locked to the rear once cleared and placed into holsters, that is the range rule. Follow it or find somewhere else to hold matches. If the range has no safe tables and says use the trunk of a car or bed of a truck, that is where firearms are handled. All I'm saying is unless a range owner, board of director or other body agrees to match rules, the match has to follow the range's rules. If the match rules are stricter than the range rules, fine. But a range does not have to follow match rules if they are less strict than range rules. Afterall, the match doesn't own the property. Essentially at that point the range's only recourse is to disaffiliate, and do their own thing..... Steel at 30 feet wouldn't be an issue -- USPSA matches are shot on plenty of ranges where the full 180 may not be available for target placement. There's a local range that's in a heavily populated area. While there's no USPSA rule requiring competitors to keep the muzzle (down) within the confines of the backstop during a reload, they do issue a reminder at the shooter's meeting -- because the consequences of a round going over the berm would be severe. That's fine -- disqualifying competitors for elevating the muzzle wouldn't be..... Likewise, if a range had a requirement about slides being locked back -- that would require a conversation with the Range's owner or BOD, as many (possibly most, depending on which divisions are popular) USPSA guns are built without the ability to go to slidelock.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I was once attending a USPSA match at which I was practicing my speedloads in the safe area before the match. And why not, it's legal to handle mags in the safe area, there was no ammo in the safe area. The MD told me I couldn't do that. I said okay but I didn't understand why, since I was breaking no rules. His reply, "It makes people nervous." I don't understand why it should make people nervous, that doesn't seem reasonable to me, but when the MD is standing there telling you to stop, whatcha gonna do? You stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben b. Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I was once attending a USPSA match at which I was practicing my speedloads in the safe area before the match. And why not, it's legal to handle mags in the safe area, there was no ammo in the safe area. The MD told me I couldn't do that. I said okay but I didn't understand why, since I was breaking no rules. His reply, "It makes people nervous." I don't understand why it should make people nervous, that doesn't seem reasonable to me, but when the MD is standing there telling you to stop, whatcha gonna do? You stop. Had he DQ'd you for it, I'd expect a somewhat different response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I was once attending a USPSA match at which I was practicing my speedloads in the safe area before the match. And why not, it's legal to handle mags in the safe area, there was no ammo in the safe area. The MD told me I couldn't do that. I said okay but I didn't understand why, since I was breaking no rules. His reply, "It makes people nervous." I don't understand why it should make people nervous, that doesn't seem reasonable to me, but when the MD is standing there telling you to stop, whatcha gonna do? You stop. Had he DQ'd you for it, I'd expect a somewhat different response. The options in that situation would be: Arbitration Not returning Conversation with the Section Coordinator Involving NROI -- if it was malicious.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankfan79 Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I was once attending a USPSA match at which I was practicing my speedloads in the safe area before the match. And why not, it's legal to handle mags in the safe area, there was no ammo in the safe area. The MD told me I couldn't do that. I said okay but I didn't understand why, since I was breaking no rules. His reply, "It makes people nervous." I don't understand why it should make people nervous, that doesn't seem reasonable to me, but when the MD is standing there telling you to stop, whatcha gonna do? You stop. Had he DQ'd you for it, I'd expect a somewhat different response. The options in that situation would be: Arbitration Not returning Conversation with the Section Coordinator Involving NROI -- if it was malicious.... If this was USPSA. It's IDPA. Area Coordinator (not sectional) Does IDPA even have Arbitration? Definately no NROI ranking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Oops, sorry about that. My apologies for the USPSA drift in the IDPA forum. I don't think I started it, but I certainly helped to continue it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankfan79 Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 It's all good. Sometimes I wish it was USPSA I was shooting. Rules are definately more clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Essentially at that point the range's only recourse is to disaffiliate, and do their own thing..... Yep. and we have one less place to compete. Hurts us, not the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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