Factory 9mm not making Minor PF

[Pezco]

Granny - you don't have to reload, just find the right production ammo to be legal for the division you want to shoot. All sports have to have rules for all the reasons everyone identified above. Have fun and don't worry about the reloading!

[aztecdriver]

So let me get this right. After spending huge sums just to get to a point where I can play I now have to start reloading which means spending more money because I can no longer depend on factory ammo to be what it should be. As far as changing, every thing changes if it expects to survive in the future. Now from my vantage point I can see those level 2 and level 3 matches getting thinner and thinner in the future as everything becomes entangled in rules and expensive equipment. All I can say is if noting changes you will see another organization form to get back to the roots of it being fun and not another job.. As for myself its USPSA renewal time and I don't think I will be renewing. Frankly its becoming more of a job than a way to relax and have fun.

1. I've said this before - you don't have to reload to compete. Factory ammo exists and makes power factor. You just need to make sure the ammo you pick - and if you read the thread completely, several options are given with PFs - makes the appropriate power factor.

2. Changing the rules for PF actually hurts the competitive factor - by allowing those that do reload to shoot even softer loads while those with factory are at 134 to the 140s with all that recoil to deal with! Change for change sake is not the way to deal with anything. The rules have evolved to deal with specific inequities - this isn't something that will help the sport.

3. USPSA is a sport - not a club. Rules are there for safety as well as competitive equity. I believe it does so fairly well and does provide a playing field for doing so in ALL financial aspects.

4. I'd like to know which level II-III matches you have attended to document this problem you claim. The ones I have attended not only where the largest they've seen - but also had waiting lists. The rules don't seem to bother people at those levels.

5. Last year at the same time, I had a conversation with you regarding your concerns with USPSA. In the year that has past, have you reached out and worked with some of the people either on this board, or locally that have a good handle on the game and let them coach you? A lot of knowledge and understanding about USPSA can be gained by doing so. If you havn't and been doing this all through forum postings and on your own - then I can understand your position. Practical match experience with people that have been around and willing to coach could help you grasp some of the things that are integral parts of the game. I can tell you that anyone willing to learn in our area will get all the help and education that they can ever want - and none of them feel the way you do about the sport.

I'm sorry you would rather go - but if another discipline is what you feel you need - then I'd rather see you happy there. USPSA might not be everyone's cup of tea - but changing what USPSA is to make it your cup of tea is a disservice to the thousands that like it the way it is today.

[Leftridge]

I am new to the sport and all I have to say is learn the rules, be prepared and have fun!

[gixxerjunky]

Federal champion made Velocity of 1170 in my shadow so I'm sure I would be safe with any of it.

[Flexmoney]

Pezco, did you see any correlation between barrel length and PF across various factory loads. Like WWB/ UMC/ Federal out of a 4" averaged about xx, 5" averaged about xx and 6" averaged xxx. It would be nice to see who makes PF out of the shorter barrels consistently just so it can be passed on to those who do not reload themselves.

Judging by some of the earlier posts making minor out of something like a G34 or a G17 does not seem to be the problem. It is the 4.25" barrels and less that seem to have the problems.

I used to shoot Winchester White Box (valupaks from Walmart) at various major matches. I don't recall what power factor they registered...it was never close enough to even think about. Out of my Glock34 they were likely 135+ power factor.

At the Ohio, I ran some, new to me (different bullet), reloads. They made 136.7 power factor out of my G34. Later, when they chrono crew had some down time, I asked if they would run that same ammo and see what it did through my little Glock26. It made ~ 129 power factor.

[Hi-Power Jack]

several instances of factory 115gr FMJ 9mm barely making minor .

My concern is that Production division is supposed to be entry division for beginner shooters.

Most basic shooters don't have a chronograph They assume, a standard 9mm pistol with factory ammo will allow them to compete in Production division

If factory 9mm does not always make minor PF, should there be a move to change the 125 PF level to say 124, or 120.

My recollection is that, back in the 70's, when Jeff Cooper, et al, were starting IPSC,

they set the standard (230 grain at 830 fps = PF 190) to be "Major". BUT, then they

lowered the standard MAJOR to the same bullet out of a short barrel .45. That way, if

someone showed up with a carry .45 and factory ammo, they'd make "Major".

Using the "same" logic, it would make sense to me that anyone, with any carry 9mm,

using any of the major brands of 9mm ammo should show up, they should be "Minor"

and allowed to shoot the match as Minor.

We might have to rethink the major brands with smaller barrels and see how they

chrono - no real disadvantage to lowering the PF for Minor - to 120, or so - it

should be easy for anyone to compete using factory ammo???

Isn't the "sterling test" for poppers, that a "factory 9mm round" will knock

the popper over? Which brand of "factory 9mm?" and what sized barrel?

Just a thought - seems to me there's no disadvantage to lowering the PF for minor

any more than lowering the Major PF from 190 to 165.

Just my humble opinion.

Jack

[aztecdriver]

several instances of factory 115gr FMJ 9mm barely making minor .

My concern is that Production division is supposed to be entry division for beginner shooters.

Most basic shooters don't have a chronograph They assume, a standard 9mm pistol with factory ammo will allow them to compete in Production division

If factory 9mm does not always make minor PF, should there be a move to change the 125 PF level to say 124, or 120.

My recollection is that, back in the 70's, when Jeff Cooper, et al, were starting IPSC,

they set the standard (230 grain at 830 fps = PF 190) to be "Major". BUT, then they

lowered the standard MAJOR to the same bullet out of a short barrel .45. That way, if

someone showed up with a carry .45 and factory ammo, they'd make "Major".

Using the "same" logic, it would make sense to me that anyone, with any carry 9mm,

using any of the major brands of 9mm ammo should show up, they should be "Minor"

and allowed to shoot the match as Minor.

We might have to rethink the major brands with smaller barrels and see how they

chrono - no real disadvantage to lowering the PF for Minor - to 120, or so - it

should be easy for anyone to compete using factory ammo???

Isn't the "sterling test" for poppers, that a "factory 9mm round" will knock

the popper over? Which brand of "factory 9mm?" and what sized barrel?

Just a thought - seems to me there's no disadvantage to lowering the PF for minor

any more than lowering the Major PF from 190 to 165.

Just my humble opinion.

Jack

The difference here is between the actual starting of a discipline and refining one. They had one reference point to start with and expanded upon it. Here, we've refined that starting point out to several generations to the point where the diminishing returns aspect kicks in.

I've already illustrated how lowering the PF hurts those that don't reload. Let's look at the cost benefit a second:

Lowering the PF from 125 to 120 for minor.

Benefits

1. It allows a couple brands of factory target loads to now make the power factor floor.

2. We add a couple of options to the already large factory available field to compete in the sport.

Costs

1. It widens the gap in power factor for those shooting factory ammo at 135-140+ to those that will reload down another 5PF to the 124-126 range. For EVERY match and every shooter competition combination.

2. Those that shoot factory will now be at a disadvantage having to find that particular brand that shoot 125 in order to regain that competitive equity.

There are a few of the widely available combinations that fail to make power factor. We'd be changing the floor for everyone, disrupting the competitive situation for those already shooting factory at over the 130s to those that shoot against people like myself that will drop off another .4 of my powder charge and reap the benefits, to keep a handful of competitors from going subminor when they can not do so by buying another cheap and equally available ammunition.

I don't know about you, but it sure sounds like there is an unequal return on the investment for the change from 125 to 120. I'd be glad to entertain the option further, but we're going to have to do better than Jeff Cooper did it in the beginning. He had a much larger return on the 190 to 175 (I do believe 165 was brought about later because of things like 9mm major safety, but I might be wrong).

[glefos]

DVC

This is the premise of our sport even in Production. There are at least a dozen reasonably priced factory ammo choices that will make 125pf. Precision Delta and Atlanta Arms also make reloaded ammo in 9mm that is comparable to WWB in PF.

[Singlestack]

DVC

This is the premise of our sport even in Production. There are at least a dozen reasonably priced factory ammo choices that will make 125pf. Precision Delta and Atlanta Arms also make reloaded ammo in 9mm that is comparable to WWB in PF.

+1

[JAFO]

Isn't the "sterling test" for poppers, that a "factory 9mm round" will knock

the popper over? Which brand of "factory 9mm?" and what sized barrel?

This is more like the "Kentucky windage" test as opposed to the sterling test. It's what most Level I clubs do because they don't have an official chrono gun and ammo, and it's close. But per the rules, and at major matches, poppers are calibrated with sub-minor ammo with a PF of 115 - 125.

Lowering the Minor PF floor would also necessarily change the way poppers are calibrated, and the common club practice of any factory ammo out of the nearest production 9mm would no longer be a viable choice.

Edited June 10, 2011 by JAFO

[bluenite]

There have been some changes over time.

In 1995 minor PF was 125.

Popper Calibrating read as follows,

The calibration ammo should test between 120 and 135.

That’s a bit different from 115-125 as it is now.

Leonard

[dillon]

since I have not seen it brought up yet, I will relay what ICORE does: ICORE has a PF of 120. However, ICORE also allows shooters using listed factory ammunition to bypass chrono.

"Ammunition must produce a minimum power factor of 120000. The power factor equals bullet weight in grains multiplied by velocity in feet per second. All competitors may be tested for minimum power factor at any ICORE match. Six rounds will be collected from each competitor at random during the match and at least one of those six must equal or exceed a 120000 power factor when shot over a chronograph through the competitor's firearm. A seventh round may be collected and weighed, to accurately determine bullet weight. "FAILING TO MAKE CHRONO" will result in 360 seconds being added to a competitor's score. A competitor, using a revolver chambered in .38 Special and/or .357 Magnum and using factory new UMC 158 grain, Remington 158 grain, Blazer 158 grain, or Federal American Eagle 158 grain ammo, may compete without regard to power factor."

ICORE sees a fair number of International shooters are their major matches. This allows those who can't/don't reload, or can't ship ammunition to compete with factory ammo, while holding the PF for those who do reload. A compromise such as this would probably work for USPSA Production as well.

[crispy]

Just chrono'd some cheap factory 9mm today. All 115 grain FMJ. Ambient temp was 90+ degrees.

Out of a 5" S&W M&P

WWB averaged 1213.8 fps for PF of 139.5.

S&B averaged 1141.0 fps for PF of 131.2.

Federal Champion averaged 1104.2 fps for PF of 126.9.

Some of the Federal was under 1087 fps.

Just for the heck of it I shot the same ammo through my Ruger SR9c with a 3.5" barrel. I wanted to see for myself how much difference the length of barrel would make. Results were expected but interesting nonetheless.

WWB averaged 1168.0 fps for PF of 134.3.

Federal Champion averaged 1065.3 fps for PF of 122.5.

The additional 1.5" of barrel made a 3.9% difference with the WWB and a 3.6% difference with the Federal.

The takeaway from all of this is that although the Federal would probably make it with a 5" barrel, shooting it through a 4.25" or 4" barrel would be risky. Don't do it.

Since WWB is cheap and plentiful at Walmart, that's what I'll be shooting at the State match.

Edited July 2, 2011 by crispy

[Thomas H]

Out of a 5" S&W M&P

Federal Champion averaged 1104.2 fps for PF of 126.9.

Just for the heck of it I shot the same ammo through my Ruger SR9c with a 3.5" barrel.

Federal Champion averaged 1065.3 fps for PF of 122.5.

The takeaway from all of this is that although the Federal would probably make it with a 5" barrel, shooting it through a 4.25" or 4" barrel would be risky. Don't do it.

...unless you are shooting a Glock pistol. The cheap Federal ammo makes 134-136 PF in my G34, both using my chrono, and the chrono at Area 5. Makes almost that much in a couple of different Gen 4 G17s we have, too.

So, if you _aren't_ using a Glock, then yes, be careful with the Federal. IF using a Glock 17 or 34, it'll probably be fine.

But truthfully, no matter WHAT you are doing, you should find a way to chrono it before a big match to make sure.

[Nick Timmerman]

Definitely a post that generated some good discussion.

To help clear up some of the questions about the Ohio match, I was one of those that made 125.0 PF.

XD 9mm Service model

Federal 115gr. 9mm (Walmart)

The confusing part for me was that I have chrono'd these rounds at 131-132 PF at my home range (WWB chrono'd at 132-133 PF), and the same brand ammo was used the month before at the Battle in the Bluegrass match where it chrono'd at 132 PF. At the Ohio match, it chrono'd 125.

I'm not looking to change the rules, I enjoy shooting USPSA, but these types of PF variances between matches can be frustrating.

We'll see what PF they chrono at the Indiana Sectional later this month.

[Louis Walker]

Definitely a post that generated some good discussion.

To help clear up some of the questions about the Ohio match, I was one of those that made 125.0 PF.

XD 9mm Service model

Federal 115gr. 9mm (Walmart)

The confusing part for me was that I have chrono'd these rounds at 131-132 PF at my home range (WWB chrono'd at 132-133 PF), and the same brand ammo was used the month before at the Battle in the Bluegrass match where it chrono'd at 132 PF. At the Ohio match, it chrono'd 125.

I'm not looking to change the rules, I enjoy shooting USPSA, but these types of PF variances between matches can be frustrating.

We'll see what PF they chrono at the Indiana Sectional later this month.

I'll be shooting the Federal 115gr. 9mm (Walmart) through a Glock 34 at the Indiana Section. I'll post my results and we can compare the differences. The XD service model is a 4" barrel isn't it?

[Skydiver]

I didn't not closely the ammo and gun combination, but some people were shooting factory .40 ammo didn't make major this past weekend. Close at 164.86, but not enough to be qualified as major per the rules.

[Schutzenmeister]

I didn't not closely the ammo and gun combination, but some people were shooting factory .40 ammo didn't make major this past weekend. Close at 164.86, but not enough to be qualified as major per the rules.

Damn those head winds!

[Louis Walker]

Definitely a post that generated some good discussion.

To help clear up some of the questions about the Ohio match, I was one of those that made 125.0 PF.

XD 9mm Service model

Federal 115gr. 9mm (Walmart)

The confusing part for me was that I have chrono'd these rounds at 131-132 PF at my home range (WWB chrono'd at 132-133 PF), and the same brand ammo was used the month before at the Battle in the Bluegrass match where it chrono'd at 132 PF. At the Ohio match, it chrono'd 125.

I'm not looking to change the rules, I enjoy shooting USPSA, but these types of PF variances between matches can be frustrating.

We'll see what PF they chrono at the Indiana Sectional later this month.

I'll be shooting the Federal 115gr. 9mm (Walmart) through a Glock 34 at the Indiana Section. I'll post my results and we can compare the differences. The XD service model is a 4" barrel isn't it?

I was 141.9 PF with Federal 115gr. 9mm (Walmart) through a Glock 34 at the Indiana Section. More than enough to make minimum (125 PF).

[sperman]

Some more data on factory ammo. This is through my SP-01 Shadow. About 80 'F Ambient temp.

Universal Ammo (Manny) 124 MG CMJ 134 PF

Atlanta Arms (blue box, older jacketed rounds) 147 JHP 131 PF

Atlanta Arms (blue box, new plated rounds) 147 FMJ 126 PF

Blazer Aluminum, 124 Gr 136 PF

Blazer Aluminum, 115 Gr 132 PF

WWB 115 Gr 137 PF

[gixxerjunky]

WWB made 141 PF out of my Shadow at area 4. I wouldn't expect it to run that hot.

[Skydiver]

As was explained to me in the past WWB varies from lot to lot because the manufacturer changes the formula depending on available materials and cost of those materials. They do same basic testing for function, but I think they have a wide window for what is considered to meet quality control.

[spanky]

WWB made 139 in my G34 at A4 but I've seen it as high as ~143ish.

[GeorgeInNePa]

115gr CCI Blazer got me a 141PF at the Area 8 out of my G34 (OEM barrel).

[West Texas Granny]

WWB made 141 PF out of my Shadow at area 4. I wouldn't expect it to run that hot.

It probably won't. Problem here is we are expecting that the powder used is top notch and not what can be purchased at the least cost to use in the production of commercial ammo. We all know producers will cut corners where they can to increase their profit margin. So PF numbers are going to change from lot to lot.

Solution: don't worry about minor PF. Just set the A zone score to 4 points instead of 5 points.