Factory 9mm not making Minor PF

[Rangertim]

At the 2011 OH Sectional, there were several instances of factory 115gr FMJ 9mm barely making minor(125.0 PF after 6 rounds and shooting #7) and in at least one case, not making Minor PF (124.9 PF). I can't say for certain all the guns that were used, but I believe one was a M&P with the 4.25in barrel, and one other a G19 I think. I know the 125.0 PF was factory Federal, and I believe the 124.9 PF was Federal as well.

My concern is that Production division is supposed to be the easy entry division for beginner shooters. A "shoot what you got" kind of thing. Most basic shooters don't have a chronograph because they don't reload and have no need for one. They assume, and I would say rightfully so, that a standard 9mm pistol with factory ammo will allow them to compete in Production division given the appropriate holster, mag holders, mags, etc. With the increasing cost of metals, I would say it's a safe bet that ammo manufacturers are saving millions by dropping powder charges a tenth here and there, which would explain the drop in velocity in some factory ammo. If this shows to be a repeating occurrence and factory 9mm does not always make minor PF, should there be a move to change the 125 PF level to say 124, or 120. Or should we hold the mentality that beginner USPSA shooters should buy the right ammo, to go with a gun that has a 5in barrel, and find someone with a chronograph to make sure their combination makes Minor PF if they want to compete in our sport. If we hold firm on the latter of the two, are we hurting our own cause by discouraging new shooters, and perhaps pushing them somewhere else such as IDPA or SCSA, where PF is not an issue?

Curious of everyones' thoughts on the matter.

[toddje]

Just my 2 cents - no reason not to go to 110-120PF if that's where factory ammo is going to be. IDPA did this for revolver because of factor ammo not meeting 'minor' in .38 spl. The round only has to go thru cardboard, after all. The perceived recoil difference between 110 and 125 PF would seem negligible. Or just exempt D class (minor PF) shooters from the chronograph requirements all together. That would save time too, and IF folks were 'significantly' cheating on their PF's they'd figure it out as soon as they made it into the higher ranks of the sport.

[EkuJustice]

Certain ammo does have a "better chance" of making minor than others. WWB is "usually" a safe bet

[Sarge]

I'm all for bringing new folks into the sport. I'm NOT, however, in favor of changing or relaxing requirements to make it happen.

When I started looking into the sport I read the rules and everything else I could find before I even thought of buying gear or guns. I knew that whatever I bought had to fit the rules, not the other way around. I knew it was going to be expensive and I knew I would have to reload in order to be able to shoot enough to make it worth my while.

With minimal research one can find all kinds of info regarding factory ammo that does not always meet power factor. As well as ammo that usually does.

Brand new shooters are not likely to miss out on much by not making minor and if they are serious about getting into the sport they will learn to adapt to the rules one way or another.

I don't think a guy needs to go out and buy a 5" gun but a G19 won't cut it for very long.

[Sean Gaines]

usually foreign ammo will make power factor, because they use them in their machine guns, and need more pop to cycle them. american ammo, can be on the anemic side. Although I am very surprised that the american ammo didn't at least make power factor!hmm thats a new one on me, maybe your 4.25" barrel may have contributed to the velocity loss.

[Rangertim]

Kevin,

It sounds like you had a solid idea of what the sport was about and dedication to become a part of it. I'm referring more to the guy that may be on the fence about competitive shooting and has a 4in XD at home. Shoots enough to be decent, but not enough to justify spending the money on a press and start reloading (This is just how I was when I started). He tries a few local USPSA matches and enjoys it, shoots the state Sectional, and gets told his score won't count because his factory bought ammo didn't make minor. Having already paid a $75 or more match fee, I can see how it would turn off an individual from continuing in the sport, and just returning to the static range a few times a month.

Obviously I loved the sport enough to invest the money, start reloading, become an RO, etc. Much like it sounds you did. But not everyone who tries USPSA is as dedicated. Those are the ones I feel like we could potentially lose. I'm not hugely in favor of adjusting the rules....but I don't want to drive away potential new members either.

[Nik Habicht]

....shoots the state Sectional, and gets told his score won't count because his factory bought ammo didn't make minor. Having already paid a $75 or more match fee, I can see how it would turn off an individual from continuing in the sport, and just returning to the static range a few times a month....

.....not everyone who tries USPSA is as dedicated. Those are the ones I feel like we could potentially lose. I'm not hugely in favor of adjusting the rules....but I don't want to drive away potential new members either.

Not everyone who comes out stays. The folks who stay long term -- more than a decade -- seem to be in the minority here.....

I'm not convinced that dropping the power factor for minor will do anything for member retention. It would also require that the PF range for chrono ammo be adjusted....

I'm all in favor of local matches setting up chronos when possible, on both an announced (We'll be here all day and happy to shoot multiple factory loads over the skyscreens for you, if you don't reload) and unannounced basis....

[EkuJustice]

I heard somewhere that the PF for minor was set off factory ammo out of "standard" gun of the time the Browning Hipower. If the times and ammo change then maby it should be looked at.

When I first started and really untill pretty recent shot al factory ammo. When I was went to a match with a chrono and no way to check it I simply asked someone who shot ALOT of ammo over the chrono Mr Skeeters, which ammo usually did not have a problem and took my chances

[SDM]

It could be the chrono. At the 2009 Area 8, Blazer Brass was 128 or so through my Glock 17. Two months earlier, and every other time through a chrono it's been at 137 or 138. One shooter on my squad went sub-minor.

[98006]

I have chronoed quite a bit of factory 115 grain.

s&B/ww wb/ speer lawman all made about 128-130 pf

PMC/Fed/Blazer were very close to 125 Depending on the gun, it might make it or not.

[lrf]

Before I started reloading, I would use 124 gr. Federal American Eagle. You can buy it online for about 220 a thousand. It came out at an average of 138 PF out of my stock Glock 34.

[Rangertim]

I admit, there are definitely factory ammo/gun combinations that will make it. But will the brand new shooter know what those combos are? Sucks for them to have to buy a certain kind of ammo and put it through a certain kind of gun to compete for score. When the guy at the OH Sectional went sub-minor with factory ammo, it just made me think about what a pattern like this might do to our sport and if we should make changes to it doesn't hurt it.

[bluenite]

I don’t see an issue.

Anyone who has spent the money to join USPSA.

Spent the time and money to get classified.

And is going to spend the time and money to go to a major match.

Should know enough about the sport to ask questions about what to do and what to expect at a major match. PF and chronographing are well covered in the rule book.

If they fail the chrono then caulk it up to a learning experience.

As for PF on factory ammo what about those who shoot .45 they are on the other end of this argument if they choose the wrong factory ammo they could be shooting a PF of 190.

Leonard

[sperman]

I wonder how many people this affects. I'm sure there are lots of competitors at Level 1 matches who are inadvertantly shooting sub minor. Since they will probably never see a chrono, they don't know they aren't making power factor. I think the majority of shooters competing at a Level 2 or higher have taken the time to make sure they are going to be competing for score.

[Sarge]

they could be shooting a PF of 190.

Leonard

+1 Somebody at the Ohio went 188!

[Joe4d]

I don’t see an issue.

Anyone who has spent the money to join USPSA.

Spent the time and money to get classified.

And is going to spend the time and money to go to a major match.

Should know enough about the sport to ask questions about what to do and what to expect at a major match. PF and chronographing are well covered in the rule book.

If they fail the chrono then caulk it up to a learning experience.

As for PF on factory ammo what about those who shoot .45 they are on the other end of this argument if they choose the wrong factory ammo they could be shooting a PF of 190.

Leonard

pretty much it in a nutshell, The rule book is a free download, by the time you go to a major match you should be familiar with it. Or not have any heartburn if you get dinged. I dont think we need to baby people even though it's the in vogue thing to do in America these days, always find someone else to blame, create a nanny system to baby people along and not ever ever expect anyone to show some personal responsibility.

minor powerfactor was designed around the 4 15/16th Hipower firing full power 124 gr ball ammo, not 115 mousefart loads.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Joe4d

[bluenite]

USPSA has created a nanny system to baby people along, It is called a Level 1 match.

I have found other shooters to be very helpful if you just ask.

And telling them about this forum is about the best help one can give a new shooter.

Leonard

[Sarge]

I see your point and wish I had a better answer or a solution to offer. I keep thinking of my tours in Germany where we were told in our inprocessing that we were in their country and we had to play by their rules. We had to adapt to them not them to us.

I am also not a big fan of brand new shooters going to level II and III matches unless they have a firm grasp of the ins and outs of the game. At the same match you mention I had two shooters ask if they were allowed to load with 11 rounds in production. One shooter after seeing everybody run a COF a certain way asked, "I can shoot this any way I want right?" Meaning he did not have to shoot it the same way everybody else did.

At least when a shooter fails to make minor he is still allowed to finish the match even though he shoots for no score. I could see it being a bad idea if failing to make minor meant you could not shoot the match. Now that would discourage new shooters.

[twodownzero]

My concern is that Production division is supposed to be the easy entry division for beginner shooters. A "shoot what you got" kind of thing.

I don't think this is correct. Production is just as competitive as any other division. A GM is a GM...doesn't matter what division he chooses.

Most basic shooters don't have a chronograph because they don't reload and have no need for one. They assume, and I would say rightfully so, that a standard 9mm pistol with factory ammo will allow them to compete in Production division given the appropriate holster, mag holders, mags, etc.

I don't think this is quite accurate, although closer. Anyone who shoots this game for long is going to handload. Production, also, is not a division without rules. Power factor is among those rules.

With the increasing cost of metals, I would say it's a safe bet that ammo manufacturers are saving millions by dropping powder charges a tenth here and there, which would explain the drop in velocity in some factory ammo.

Factory ammo is loaded based on pressure, not velocity. It's the choice of powder, not the amount, that is varied to change velocity. This is mostly true for handloading as well, but we are more tolerant of variation and thus some choose to load a slower powder to a lower velocity rather than changing to a faster powder. Most of us, though, me included, load a max load or near max load of faster powder that makes pf + our safety margin.

If this shows to be a repeating occurrence and factory 9mm does not always make minor PF, should there be a move to change the 125 PF level to say 124, or 120. Or should we hold the mentality that beginner USPSA shooters should buy the right ammo, to go with a gun that has a 5in barrel, and find someone with a chronograph to make sure their combination makes Minor PF if they want to compete in our sport. If we hold firm on the latter of the two, are we hurting our own cause by discouraging new shooters, and perhaps pushing them somewhere else such as IDPA or SCSA, where PF is not an issue?

Most local matches don't have a chronograph, and the competitor's declared power factor is therefore assumed. It is not required until a Level III. If a competitor wants to shoot at that level, he needs to be able to fully comply with rigid enforcement of the rules. I don't think it's an accident that local matches have neither the time, nor the incentive, to enforce the rules. It's not that way so seasoned vets can cheat. It's that way because it's impractical to enforce the rules.

I also don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to show up with a full size 9mm of some kind. Compared to ammo, such a piece of equipment is a minimal investment. Also, nothing is stopping them from shooting factory .40, which ALL makes at least minor, and most makes major.

I do think IDPA's rule that ammo must make power factor out of the maximum legal length of barrel for the division makes more sense, however. There's no real gain from shooting softer ammo in a smaller gun--it's way harder to shoot a smaller gun. It's not as essential to have such a rule in USPSA, however, because there is really no reason to shoot a small gun--USPSA isn't a fighting game. Implementing this rule would conflict with one of our core principles, also, and so I'm not sure it'd be that popular. I would probably support such a rule modification, however, depending on how it was written.

I think you're on the right track, but I disagree with your core assumptions. Either way, this is a worthwhile discussion, no doubt.

[PeterMor]

Rules are rules, if a brand of ammo doesn't make minor in your gun, try a different brand of ammo. As far as I'm concerned productions "Run what you brung" doesn't extend to ammo that can't make minor, just like it wouldn't extend to a gun that is unsafe. There are limits.

[CZinSC]

It could be the chrono. At the 2009 Area 8, Blazer Brass was 128 or so through my Glock 17. Two months earlier, and every other time through a chrono it's been at 137 or 138. One shooter on my squad went sub-minor.

The chrono could always be a factor, but in this case (2011 Ohio Section) my ammo registered the exact PF I was getting at home on my own chrono.

As for the idea of lowering the PF threshold...I don't like it. If you're going to shoot a Level II or III, you should find someone with a chrono and test your factory loads. I think you'd be hard pressed to NOT find someone willing to set up their chrono for you after a local match to do just that. Just ask around and see if someone is willing to bring it out the next local match. I know if someone asked me, I'd be happy to oblige.

[double_r76]

I don’t see an issue.

Anyone who has spent the money to join USPSA.

Spent the time and money to get classified.

And is going to spend the time and money to go to a major match.

Should know enough about the sport to ask questions about what to do and what to expect at a major match. PF and chronographing are well covered in the rule book.

If they fail the chrono then caulk it up to a learning experience.

At least when a shooter fails to make minor he is still allowed to finish the match even though he shoots for no score. I could see it being a bad idea if failing to make minor meant you could not shoot the match. Now that would discourage new shooters.

Rules are rules, if a brand of ammo doesn't make minor in your gun, try a different brand of ammo. As far as I'm concerned productions "Run what you brung" doesn't extend to ammo that can't make minor, just like it wouldn't extend to a gun that is unsafe. There are limits.

+1 to everything above... I'm so thankful for Multi-Quote!

At the end of the day, it's not hard to figure out the rules and comply with them before you take all of the steps to compete at a match where you may face a chrono. If you don't take those steps, then you do so at your own risk. And as Kevin noted, you get to finish out the match, but your scores aren't posted against everyone else that did comply with the rules.

No problem!

-Randy

[Nik Habicht]

I admit, there are definitely factory ammo/gun combinations that will make it. But will the brand new shooter know what those combos are? Sucks for them to have to buy a certain kind of ammo and put it through a certain kind of gun to compete for score. When the guy at the OH Sectional went sub-minor with factory ammo, it just made me think about what a pattern like this might do to our sport and if we should make changes to it doesn't hurt it.

In my experience, it's usually not new shooters who sub-minor at chrono......

The people I've seen have been experienced competitors -- who had a loading glitch, or switched powders and didn't get a chance to chrono....

[Singlestack]

I admit, there are definitely factory ammo/gun combinations that will make it. But will the brand new shooter know what those combos are? Sucks for them to have to buy a certain kind of ammo and put it through a certain kind of gun to compete for score. When the guy at the OH Sectional went sub-minor with factory ammo, it just made me think about what a pattern like this might do to our sport and if we should make changes to it doesn't hurt it.

In my experience, it's usually not new shooters who sub-minor at chrono......

The people I've seen have been experienced competitors -- who had a loading glitch, or switched powders and didn't get a chance to chrono....

...or just plain ol' cut it too close and get burned. Which I never understand.

[TNK]

Good thread. Great replies. I will say too rules are rules. There is no reason to lower the PF for Minor. A shooter needs to understand how ammo functions in his pistol. Also, a shooter must know the rules when he participates in matches above the club level. No one else is going to do it for him, especially at the club level (as mentioned above). Sloppy club matches do no one any favors. It is the shooter's responsibility to know the facts.