Factory 9mm not making Minor PF

[bbbean]

My concern is that Production division is supposed to be the easy entry division for beginner shooters. A "shoot what you got" kind of thing.

And it is, at least at the local level. Few local clubs run a chrono, so new shooters don't have to worry about commercial loads that are just a few points shy of declared PF. At those few clubs that do run a chrono, there's obviously a chrono available for them to test a few rounds and find ammo that will make major. Expectations are also lower, and allowances are more likely to be made for beginning shooters just learning the game.

But if you make the jump to level II or III matches, the expectations change. We expect shooters at a level II+ match to be fully versed in the rules, have equipment that meets division specs, and we expect shooters to make PF. It's just part of the price of admission.

Consider - would you go to a state or regional championship in any other sport without knowing the rules and knowing you met the minimum requirements?

BB

[pjb45]

The Production Division addressed numerous issues; not just one.

It allows people to compete without having to shell out thousands of dollars for a gun, equipment and accessories. This is true. Read some of the past issues of Front Sight.

So is it an entree to the sport-absolutely.

Does it also expand the competitive nature of USPSA - absolutely.

Factory ammo that is available at a retail store should be the floor. Again this is a cost and availibility issue.

The minor/major issue is related not only to Production but also to Open, Limited, Limited 10 and Single Stack e.g. 9mm can make major in Open but not in the other Divisions. One of the reasons was to prevent another "in order to be competitive, I need to reinvest thousand of dollars in a 9mm" response.

WWBox is one of the most popular and widely distributed brands of ammo. But as others have said, a 5.25 inch barrel might produce different velocity than a 3.8 inch barrel.

As usual, the thirty second sound byte response does not address the problem and unintended consequences.

Not every approved Production Gun is going to make minor with factory ammo. This should be explained in a way that all new and existing shooters acknowledge it.

USPSA has done an adequate job of incremental improvements within our sport, rules, and execution. It might be time to take a look at it as a whole. Unfortunately, reengineering has come to mean downsizing when the intent was to re-evaluate and make significant global changes for improvement.

[West Texas Granny]

Problem. Commercial ammo depending on " lot" may not make minor PF.

Solution. Set one PF and that would be for Major PF. What does not make that standard becomes Minor. Set A zone hits to 4 points for guns shooting minor PF.

[beltjones]

Good grief. Are we still going around this merry-go-round?

Practically speaking, this only applies to level 2 competitions and above, right? I mean, how many level 1 matches even have a chrono stage?

This sport is already far more accessible than most. I mean, in how many other sports can you get into the national championship via a waitlist? Going forward, the goal shouldn't be to continue to lower the sport under the guise of making it more accessible, it should be to elevate the sport to something aspirational to the common shooter. That means setting a standard that is attainable yet firm, and then being fair and consistent with the rules.

Every sport has certain equipment barriers to entry - even in wrestling you have to at least buy appropriate shoes. Unlike other sports where if you show up to a state-level match with the wrong equipment they won't even let you compete, at least in USPSA they will let you compete, albeit for no score.

Now that I think about it, the whole powerfactor thing is a lot like weight classes in the combat sports. If you show up to a wrestling meet you have to make weight for your division. Sure, the featherweight division would be more "accessible" if they let in anyone regardless of weight, but it wouldn't be fair to the people who legitimately prepared to fight at that weight. USPSA powerfactors are the same - competitors ought to be prepared to "make weight," or they should understand that they will be bumped to a different weight class, perhaps one where they won't compete as effectively.

Unlike wrestling, no one in USPSA needs to ride a stationary bike in a sauna in order to make powerfactor. There is a huge list of readily-available pistols that qualify for Production division, and all one needs to do is find commercially available ammunition that will work with his or her gun.

[Red Ryder]

I like shooters that shoot store bought ammo. That "once fired brass" makes nice reloads. We should be highly encouraging the use of store bought ammo so that we reloaders have a steady stream of good used brass!

Edited September 15, 2011 by Red Ryder

[Dwain C. Baer]

I like shooters that shoot store bought ammo. That "once fired brass" makes nice reloads. We should be highly encouraging the use of store bought ammo so that we reloaders have a steady stream of good used brass!

When shooting factory 9mm ammunition, I normally use Blazer aluminum case rounds . They always make the required power factor in both IDPA and USPSA. Plus, I don't feel like I'm wasting good brass.

[West Texas Granny]

Good grief. Are we still going around this merry-go-round?

Practically speaking, this only applies to level 2 competitions and above, right? I mean, how many level 1 matches even have a chrono stage?

This sport is already far more accessible than most. I mean, in how many other sports can you get into the national championship via a waitlist? Going forward, the goal shouldn't be to continue to lower the sport under the guise of making it more accessible, it should be to elevate the sport to something aspirational to the common shooter. That means setting a standard that is attainable yet firm, and then being fair and consistent with the rules.

Every sport has certain equipment barriers to entry - even in wrestling you have to at least buy appropriate shoes. Unlike other sports where if you show up to a state-level match with the wrong equipment they won't even let you compete, at least in USPSA they will let you compete, albeit for no score.

Now that I think about it, the whole powerfactor thing is a lot like weight classes in the combat sports. If you show up to a wrestling meet you have to make weight for your division. Sure, the featherweight division would be more "accessible" if they let in anyone regardless of weight, but it wouldn't be fair to the people who legitimately prepared to fight at that weight. USPSA powerfactors are the same - competitors ought to be prepared to "make weight," or they should understand that they will be bumped to a different weight class, perhaps one where they won't compete as effectively.

Unlike wrestling, no one in USPSA needs to ride a stationary bike in a sauna in order to make powerfactor. There is a huge list of readily-available pistols that qualify for Production division, and all one needs to do is find commercially available ammunition that will work with his or her gun.

Scales in wrestling are calibrated. Commercial ammo is not manufactured to make certain PF's. Commercial ammo is not made to meet USPSA PF's in all barrel lengths. Barrel lengths do impact PF. Commercial ammo is a variable that cannot be accounted for without rule changes. I've seen some ammo names mentioned that I have yet to see in local shops. There is a valid concern here which must be addresed.

[sperman]

No one is forcing you to buy commercial ammo. If you want to, make sure it meets minimum PF out of your gun. Some does, some doesn't.

[Thomas H]

Scales in wrestling are calibrated. Commercial ammo is not manufactured to make certain PF's. Commercial ammo is not made to meet USPSA PF's in all barrel lengths. Barrel lengths do impact PF. Commercial ammo is a variable that cannot be accounted for without rule changes. I've seen some ammo names mentioned that I have yet to see in local shops. There is a valid concern here which must be addresed.

Not really, no. It is a sport, like any other. There are rules for those who wish to compete. Follow the rules, competition goes just fine. In Production division, there is very little competitors need to do, equipment-wise, to be able to compete.

As for "scales in wrestling are calibrated" --- indeed so. Just as in a large match, your ammo is chronoed so that you "make weight" or in our case, power factor. How you do that (longer barrel, hotter loads, heavier bullets) is up to you. There are a number of simple choices. Ammo makers can't set PF levels, because each gun will run differently---and it isn't their job, anyway. This isn't for an afternoon plinking at tin cans. If you want to compete, you have to have the equipment that is required. If you don't---then either borrow it, or go back to plinking at tin cans.

In a Level II match if you show up with a 2 inch barrel on a 5-shot revolver for Production, you can compete. You won't be competitive, and you'll have problems making power factor---but that is your problem, and your choice. (Might be fun in a local match once, with enough speed loaders. Lots and lots of speed loaders...)

Plenty of ammo out there (commercially available in all sorts of places, easy to find) will make power factor in standard-size firearms that are legal for Production. If that particular requirement is too onerous, chances are USPSA isn't for you.

(As for "ammo names that I have yet to see in local shops" ---so buy online.)

Federal 115 gr makes minor in 5" barrels. WWB makes Minor in 4" barrels. I'm betting Wolf and Tula will make it in 4" barrels, though I haven't checked. Other cheap ammo will do the same. Plenty of 124 and 147 gr ammo available, too. Atlanta Arms and Ammo will be happy to ship ammo to you, and Universal Ammo (Manny Bragg et al) will do the same. Or, you know, do what many people do and reload.

It isn't that hard. And like people have said, it isn't as if people normally run a chrono at Level I matches anyway. If a particular competitor is worried about winning a level II match but WWB won't make Minor in their firearm, chances are their firearm isn't going to be competitive anyway. (Sevigny might be able to win Production using a G26, but the rest of us couldn't. Come to think of it, I'd really like to see that. )

Summation of this rambling: finding ammunition that makes Minor in the guns allowed in Production isn't difficult. It is a competition, not an afternoon out with friends plinking for bragging rights to "best shooter." Getting access to a chrono isn't difficult, given the shooting community. Buy some, reload some, either way it isn't difficult.

If you want to compete, do some research, be prepared, have your ammo beforehand, and check it. Very straightforward.

[ima45dv8]

Commercial ammo is a variable that cannot be accounted for without rule changes.

Sure it can. Run it over a chrono and see if it makes PF in the intended gun.

Simple, and no rule change needed to accomodate people who aren't willing to put even a modicum of preparation into the matches they attend (I'm sure you're not one of THEM).

[Biloxi23]

Some of the store bought ammo doesn't make minor becuase it is made to be easy to shoot for those folks that do not shoot matches. There are a whole lot more casual shooters shooting 9mm then there are competitive shooters. Check any local range on a Saturday afternoon and tell me what you see. At least half the folks shooting will be shooting 9mm. The big ammo factories do not care if their economy level product makes minor, major or whatever. It doesn't take very long doing a Google search to find out what brands of ammo will make which power factor.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Biloxi23

[beltjones]

Scales in wrestling are calibrated. Commercial ammo is not manufactured to make certain PF's. Commercial ammo is not made to meet USPSA PF's in all barrel lengths. Barrel lengths do impact PF. Commercial ammo is a variable that cannot be accounted for without rule changes. I've seen some ammo names mentioned that I have yet to see in local shops. There is a valid concern here which must be addresed.

No no no. The scale in this case is the chrono. Chronos are calibrated (at least as much as most wrestling meet scales I've seen).

Showing up to a major match without having chronoed your ammo would be like showing up to a wrestling meet thinking you'll make weight just because you look skinny. It's not exactly the best preparation for something that is a meaningful competition.

And if the event doesn't mean enough to someone to do so little preparation, then I would rather have them stay home than lower the competition to their level. To do so would be to cheapen it for everyone else who takes the event seriously.

[aztecdriver]

Scales in wrestling are calibrated. Commercial ammo is not manufactured to make certain PF's. Commercial ammo is not made to meet USPSA PF's in all barrel lengths. Barrel lengths do impact PF. Commercial ammo is a variable that cannot be accounted for without rule changes. I've seen some ammo names mentioned that I have yet to see in local shops. There is a valid concern here which must be addresed.

Not to mention your solution isn't feasible. By changing the minor scoring A zone to 4 points, you are changing the available points on a stage to be less than others, not only in the division, but the match. Based on how scoring is done, it will be impossible to effectively score matches correctly, as the winner of a stage is assigned 100% of the stage points available - you will have different stage points assigned based on whether the shooter winning the stage is shooting minor or major. Remember, that stage winners are based on high hit factor, not scored points.

In order for that to work the ENTIRE sport scoring structure will not only have to be revamped but redone from scratch - and that is just not going to happen.

[Jim Norman]

ANY, and I mean ANY small group of shooters can get a Chrono for very little money. Poll your resources, even a CED WITH the Infra Red Screens isn't that expensive and a box can be made of cardboard. The power source is a simple as your car battery or the starting battery from your lawn mower. It will run the lights all day.

How do I know this you might well ask, well...

I bought a CED a number of years ago to chrono my ammo. this past week I bolted it to a board and made a cardboard enclosure and we ran about 50-60 shooters through it at a LOCAL MATCH. We had a couple come real close on minoring an done person did. We had several new shooters running factory ammo in shorter barreled Glocks and XDs that didn't make Minor with one brand, but did with another. As they were new shooters, had them finish the match with the ammo that made it and if they had not enough of the hotter ammo we would not have dinged them, they were not likely to win anyway. Now they do know what ammo their respective gun needs to make PF.

It was simple and relatively painless. We had one person on the chrono that was not shooting the match run all the guns so my chrono had a better than even chance of survival (it did).

We will do this again at some future point. The sport has RULES and if we are to have any meaning to the Rulebook, then we need to enforce the rules. Reloading even for the casual once a month shooter is not that expensive. Get a Dillon 550. Heck if all you shoot is one match a month and maybe a little plinking you COULD do it on a Single Stage! The minor investment assures you of consistent ammo at a reasonable price.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Jim Norman

[vluc]

Scales in wrestling are calibrated. Commercial ammo is not manufactured to make certain PF's. Commercial ammo is not made to meet USPSA PF's in all barrel lengths. Barrel lengths do impact PF. Commercial ammo is a variable that cannot be accounted for without rule changes. I've seen some ammo names mentioned that I have yet to see in local shops. There is a valid concern here which must be addresed.

Are there any rules for Production and USPSA that you do like that do not need to be addressed? Over a variety of threads for you, holster/mag position, power factor, etc. all seem to not be agreeable to you.

It is a game, it has rules.

Edited September 16, 2011 by vluc

[Dwain C. Baer]

Rules rule...

[Poppa Bear]

One thing brought up in an earlier post is how the factory ammo is made. Many times it is whatever components they can get for the best price at that time. As we all know because it is brought up every so often, powders have different sensitivities. Some are reverse temp, some are positive temp, some are stable across a wide range of temps. This also affects those who reload so they also have to plan for different elevations and temperature changes.

If at all possible chronograph what you plan to shoot in the match. If it is borderline change your factory load to something with a better PF, but there will be no guarantee that you will make PF if you test at 150' of elevation and 95 degrees when the match will be shot at 5,000' of elevation and 50 degrees.

Has anyone not made PF while using a full size gun, and shooting factory ammo? Seems to me most of what I have heard about not making PF are compacts or sub compacts.

[bbbean]

Has anyone not made PF while using a full size gun, and shooting factory ammo? Seems to me most of what I have heard about not making PF are compacts or sub compacts.

I haven't had it happen at a match, but I have chrono'd commercial ammo that did not make major in both my 1911 and my Para P16-40.

BB

[EricBudd]

I don't see this as that complicated an issue. The shooter is expected to know the rules and comply.

That said, for shooters who don't reload, it might be a nice idea for match directors to either setup a chrono station once in a while or (better?) have a voluntary chrono avaialble after a monthly club match (before a big match) just so shooters can see if they are running on the ragged edge. Most people don't want to cheat, they are just unaware they are not making power factor. We don't have a responsibility to coddle shooters, but there is no reason to want to see them have problems at a major.

Eric

[archangel]

Has anyone not made PF while using a full size gun, and shooting factory ammo?

I came close. 125.7 pf with Remington UMC out of a 5" gun.