GrumpyOne Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Ok, the guy (or girl) steps up to the start position, you ask if they understand the course of fire...They nod, say yes, whatever. Then you give the command "Make Ready". You see them pull the gun, with the hammer/striker down, they insert a fresh mag, and rack the slide, and an empty case flies out! This isn't their first stage of the day, so....What's the call? Or, same thing, but a live round flies out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger10k Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Should be a DQ under 10.5.13. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I've been told that there was a precendent of described case at a Level 3 IPSC match several years ago with a live round inthe gun on load and make ready. It went to the arbitration and competitor won it on the ground that it was an RO fault to not check the gun on his last stage. I believe IROA president made this ruling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 The onus is on the shooter. DQ. That is why the command now says, ....IF CLEAR, hammer down and holster. The "if" clearly puts responsibility on the shooter to check. DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Should be a DQ under 10.5.13. And you can add the definition of a loaded firearm: Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 The onus is on the shooter. DQ. That is why the command now says, ....IF CLEAR, hammer down and holster. The "if" clearly puts responsibility on the shooter to check. DQ. Yup! I personally check the chamber before I say "Hammer down, Holster", but I bear NO responsibility in the sense of it being my fault if one slips by. Of course, if its a live round, it goes into the berm and a DQ happens there. If its an empty case, the next RO gets to issue the DQ. It only takes a second to verify if you are the shooter, why not take the time??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 (edited) But what is the definition of "Dummy round"? The Glossary gives the definition of cartridge case (There is no definition in the Glossary defining "Dummy Round") as "The main body of a round, which contains all component parts.", yet the rule being quoted specifically states "Live or Dummy", not cartridge case or empty case... I can see the DQ for having a live round eject out...But an empty case? The rule just states Live or Dummy....not cartridge case....If the cartridge is not complete, how can it be a dummy round? This rule states you can't handle empty cases in the safety area: 2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances (see Rule 10.5.12). The question is: Can an empty case be considered a "Dummy Round"? Definition of dummy round... A dummy round is a round of ammunition that is completely inert, i.e., contains no primer, propellant, or explosive charge. It is used to check weapon function, and for crew training[1]. Dummy ammunition is distinct from "practice" ammunition, which may contain smaller than normal amounts of propellant and/or explosive. A dummy is not to be confused with a blank, a cartridge for a firearm that contains propellant but no bullet or shot: a dummy does not produce an explosive sound like a blank does. Edited May 2, 2011 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I think 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 defines a dummy round for us: Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 I think 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 defines a dummy round for us: Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases) I some what agree, but they stop short of calling an empty case a "dummy", as it includes an empty case, which sounds like they know it's not a dummy round, and have included it into the safe area non handling... At either rate, it is only in a safe area that it is prohibited.... Perhaps there should be a definition of "Dummy Round" in the glossary....They have definitions of everything else.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Throw in there just general unsafe gun handling, DOnt have my rule book handy, but the unsafe gun handling lists examples but uses verbage along the lines of, "but not limited too" Lack of chamber awareness violates one of the most basic fundamentals of gun safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Huh? Seems pretty clear to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDB Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 But what is the definition of "Dummy round"? The Glossary gives the definition of cartridge case (There is no definition in the Glossary defining "Dummy Round") as "The main body of a round, which contains all component parts.", yet the rule being quoted specifically states "Live or Dummy", not cartridge case or empty case... I can see the DQ for having a live round eject out...But an empty case? The rule just states Live or Dummy....not cartridge case....If the cartridge is not complete, how can it be a dummy round? This rule states you can't handle empty cases in the safety area: 2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances (see Rule 10.5.12). The question is: Can an empty case be considered a "Dummy Round"? Definition of dummy round... A dummy round is a round of ammunition that is completely inert, i.e., contains no primer, propellant, or explosive charge. It is used to check weapon function, and for crew training[1]. Dummy ammunition is distinct from "practice" ammunition, which may contain smaller than normal amounts of propellant and/or explosive. A dummy is not to be confused with a blank, a cartridge for a firearm that contains propellant but no bullet or shot: a dummy does not produce an explosive sound like a blank does. I don't know where you came up with your definition of a dummy round from, and I'm not trying to argue what a dummy round is, but it wasn't from our rulebook, which is all we can go by. 2.4.2 includes empty cases in the dummy round category. Now, what IS in a definition glossary is this "Loaded Firearm: A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm." So, long story short is the shooter was walking around with a, by definition, loaded weapon. DQ 10.5.13 plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Just because a case came flying out does not mean the gun was unloaded, this scenario. Prior stage, shooter finishes and goes to eject round, bullet is stuck in the chamber (over size whatever), extractor slips off the rim. Slide racks back and shooter is a hot shot and RO does not have a chance to look down the chamber, or the RO does not know to do so, or too lazy, or too distracted. Slide released, hammer down and gun goes click, no one knows it is a high primer (just a bad all around reload). Gun is now hot and no one knows it. Your stage, gun is racked to seat a round, the second time around the extractor pulls the case free of the bullet. Most think it has fired, it has a dent from the prior high primer. Yep, it is a DQ. Jim G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I've been told that there was a precendent of described case at a Level 3 IPSC match several years ago with a live round inthe gun on load and make ready. It went to the arbitration and competitor won it on the ground that it was an RO fault to not check the gun on his last stage. I believe IROA president made this ruling. That's a difference between IPSC and USPSA. In USPSA, it's always on the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share Posted May 3, 2011 Alright, I sent an email to John Amidon, DNROI...This is the reply I got: Hi Andy, A dummy round is a snap cap, a case with a spent primmer no powder and a bullet head, basically any bullet that will not fire but used to feed and eject by racking the slide or dumping the cylinder on a revolver. John From: Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:03 PM To: dnroi@uspsa.org Subject: I need a defintion... Looking through the rule book, there are definitions for almost everything in the glossary, but there is no complete definiton for "Dummy Round". What is considered a "Dummy round"? I know rules 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 talk about handling ammo, dummy rounds, empty cases, etc. in a safe area, but it "includes" empty cases...Are empty cases to be defined as dummy rounds? The rule book defines cartridge case only..... Thanks! Andy Glattli Notice is states that a dummy round is "a case with a spent primmer no powder and a bullet head". If there is no bullet "head", it is not a dummy round, therefore the shooter cannot be DQ'ed. He also goes on to state that a dummy round is "any bullet that will not fire but used to feed and eject by racking the slide or dumping the cylinder". A case without a bullet is not a dummy round...It is simply a case with no bullet...By John's definition, it takes all three of those things to make a dummy round, without the bullet head, no dummy round.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 For the second time this week: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 (edited) Alright, I sent an email to John Amidon, DNROI...This is the reply I got: Hi Andy, A dummy round is a snap cap, a case with a spent primmer no powder and a bullet head, basically any bullet that will not fire but used to feed and eject by racking the slide or dumping the cylinder on a revolver. John Hmmm. Interesting in that 2.4.2 clearly indicates a broader definition. You may have gone and found yet another rule book hole to be plugged Curtis Edited May 4, 2011 by BayouSlide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 I think 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 defines a dummy round for us: Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases) It doesn't define dummy round, just what is included with dummy rounds, in the safety area.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Before everyone starts thinking that an empty case in the chamber is not a loaded gun, let's give this a day or two to shake out. Mr. Amidon's definition of a dummy cartridge to Grumpy was, in my opinion....narrow. It has long been held, and taught in NROI classes, that an empty case in the chamber or magazine is a violation of the loaded gun rule. This email alone does not negate that. Maybe the definition in the glossary needs to be broadened a bit to include empty cases, and I hope that comes about. In the mean time, please don't stand in front of me at the Make Ready command, jack an empty case out of your chamber, and expect to continue shooting in that particular event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Ugh. I'm with singlestack. If anything comes out of the gun I'm pulling the plug unless this gets clarified further. Like somebody said before it could have been a live round that just got tore apart leaving a bullet in the barrel. Plus once that case hits the ground you will never be able to prove which one just came from the gun. If something shiny ejects who is to say it is a case or a round unless you were staring right at it as it flew out and landed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Ugh. I'm with singlestack. Don't confuse ugly with stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Ugh. I'm with singlestack. Who? And as for Singlestack's reply...are you calling me Ugly, or Stupid? Pick one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Ugh. I'm with singlestack. Who? And as for Singlestack's reply...are you calling me Ugly, or Stupid? Pick one. Depends...can you count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Ugh. I'm with singlestack. Who? And as for Singlestack's reply...are you calling me Ugly, or Stupid? Pick one. Depends...can you count? Of course I can. As evidenced by a vast number of match results, many people cannot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 OOPS! But it was worth it. The interaction was great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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