Singlestack Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 While 10.5.13 would not come into play at the line as it does not meet the criteria of a loaded gun, it would be an issue that would cause the RO to have a heart to heart talk to the competitor, as the dummy ammunition had to be put into the handgun someplace and possible 10.5.12 would be invoked. See 2.4.2 John He just stepped on his d**k. Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. Yes, and that is taken out of context of what he said...Quote the entire paragraph... While 10.5.13 would not come into play at the line as it does not meet the criteria of a loaded gun If you will notice, I did quote the entire paragraph and he, not I, called the empty brass "dummy ammunition". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 I... am... lets say... supprised. I also say, DNROI is wrong. Yup. Agreed. Why must we define all of the things that are not ok to have in one's chamber? It seems like it's overly complicated, and we could simplify things immeasurably - and provide for a safer environment - by stating that the chamber must be empty. Either the chamber is loaded with something or it's empty. I don't care if it's loaded with a live round, a dummy round, a small rock, a boresighter, etc, because as the RO my job should not be to determine what exactly flew out of the chamber on the MR command. This isn't CSI, and on a gravel and brass-covered bay it could be impossible to determine anyway. The simple way to do it is to say that if the gun is loaded on MR, it's a DQ. That way we err on the side of safety and make the RO's jobs possible to do. The rules should reflect this, and if they don't, then the BOD needs to take steps so they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 While 10.5.13 would not come into play at the line as it does not meet the criteria of a loaded gun, it would be an issue that would cause the RO to have a heart to heart talk to the competitor, as the dummy ammunition had to be put into the handgun someplace and possible 10.5.12 would be invoked. See 2.4.2 John He just stepped on his d**k. Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. Yes, and that is taken out of context of what he said...Quote the entire paragraph... While 10.5.13 would not come into play at the line as it does not meet the criteria of a loaded gun If you will notice, I did quote the entire paragraph and he, not I, called the empty brass "dummy ammunition". You are corect (in quoting the entire paragraph).... . But again, he says it does not meet the criteria...So,.... By the way, when you Arb a ruling, where does it go? To the BOD? Who's the head of the BOD? Don't they have more say than others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 I... am... lets say... supprised. I also say, DNROI is wrong. Yup. Agreed. Why must we define all of the things that are not ok to have in one's chamber? It seems like it's overly complicated, and we could simplify things immeasurably - and provide for a safer environment - by stating that the chamber must be empty. Either the chamber is loaded with something or it's empty. I don't care if it's loaded with a live round, a dummy round, a small rock, a boresighter, etc, because as the RO my job should not be to determine what exactly flew out of the chamber on the MR command. This isn't CSI, and on a gravel and brass-covered bay it could be impossible to determine anyway. The simple way to do it is to say that if the gun is loaded on MR, it's a DQ. That way we err on the side of safety and make the RO's jobs possible to do. The rules should reflect this, and if they don't, then the BOD needs to take steps so they do. This, I can completely agree with....If anything, other than powder residue, is present in the chamber, at MR, then DQ....But, the rules don't say that...YET.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 If anybody racks a piece of brass (or any similar component) out of their gun at MR when I am running them, they might as well have their $100 bill out for the arb. I am sorry. The call is a DQ. 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. A3: Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamberor cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in amagazine inserted in the firearm. And, in case anybody has trouble knowing what dummy ammo is...just look at (where it was spelled out a bit further for clarity): 2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances (see Rule 10.5.12). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 I agree with Flex 100%. (I've been trying to make that point since point #8 of this thread.) IMO the rulebook is very clear. If John wants to issue an official ruling, I may be forced to change my opinion. An e-mail will not do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Why must we define all of the things that are not ok to have in one's chamber? It seems like it's overly complicated, and we could simplify things immeasurably - and provide for a safer environment - by stating that the chamber must be empty. Either the chamber is loaded with something or it's empty. I don't care if it's loaded with a live round, a dummy round, a small rock, a boresighter, etc, because as the RO my job should not be to determine what exactly flew out of the chamber on the MR command. This isn't CSI, and on a gravel and brass-covered bay it could be impossible to determine anyway. The simple way to do it is to say that if the gun is loaded on MR, it's a DQ. That way we err on the side of safety and make the RO's jobs possible to do. The rules should reflect this, and if they don't, then the BOD needs to take steps so they do. Here here! Do I hear a motion to bring this brilliant piece of literary work before the BOD ??? Bravo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Is this not simple? Unloaded firearm to me means exactly that. Not loaded with anything in the chamber. Nothing,zip,nada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 If anybody racks a piece of brass (or any similar component) out of their gun at MR when I am running them, they might as well have their $100 bill out for the arb. I am sorry. The call is a DQ. 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. A3: Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamberor cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in amagazine inserted in the firearm. And, in case anybody has trouble knowing what dummy ammo is...just look at (where it was spelled out a bit further for clarity): 2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances (see Rule 10.5.12). Felx, Flex, Flex....Don't you see? That is not the definition of dummy ammo....The empty cases are INCLUDED in the category of dummy ammo, not dummy ammo itself.... Does anyone here think that practice rounds and training rounds is dummy rounds? Tell you what, I'll let you shoot me with all the dummy rounds you want if you let me shoot you with all the practice or training rounds I want.... Which side of the battle do you want to be on? The dummy or the practice/training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Im with Flex. Seems like a no brainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Is this not simple? Unloaded firearm to me means exactly that. Not loaded with anything in the chamber. Nothing,zip,nada. I do like you goal to keep things simple. Unfortunately you missed the other part of the definition of a loaded firearm which is a magazine with live or dummy rounds inserted in the gun. (By your definition, condition 3 would be "unloaded", and so the other unloaded gun start discussion thread would allow a mag to start off in the gun as long as the chamber was empty.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Ok, include empty Magwell and my statement stands. Common sense should prevail. UNloaded means not loaded. I don't care what it is loaded with,the fact something(anything)is in it makes it loaded in my opinion. I may be wrong and the shooter can arb, but I still stand by my definition of unloaded. Until directly told otherwise by whomever makes the rules, that's my call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 (edited) Call me crazy, lazy, or just plain ignorant, but I think as an RO you have to make the obvious call, that it's a DQ under rule 10.5.13* and if the competitor doesn't agree with that let him take it up with the RM or MD as the case may be, so we can get back to shooting the match. * 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. I know it sounds crazy to use common sense, but as far as I'm concerned ...... (aside from the loaded magazine criteria) if the gun isn't UNLOADED then it was LOADED. The gun wasn't EMPTY. None of this "partially loaded" crap, or empty cases & training rounds aren't dangerous bs. I don't give a damn if a wooden nickel flies out of your gun at MR ... we got problems!! It's gotta be BLACK or WHITE here. There are no Gray aspects to this. We're talking about fricken gun safety for crying out loud! When debating the great issue of whether the gun is empty or not, we need to err on the side of caution at all times. I don't know about the rest of you, but I like knowing that the only people with a loaded gun at a 10 stage USPSA match are the 10 people actively shooting their respective stages. Thats what a "Cold Range" is. I didn't even know you couldn't handle empty brass cases at a Safe Area, so I'm glad I tuned in on this little discussion. Edited May 4, 2011 by Chris Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) I've said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again....I AGREE...that unloaded, not loaded, completely empty, whatever you want to call it, is the way it should be (and, in fact, is, 99.99999% of the time), at MR, but by the rules (and the definition given by the DNROI), that may not be the case (no pun intended), and if so, under those circumstances, is not a DQ..... Agree or disagree, right or wrong, the rules and the interpretations of them are the jurisdiction of the BOD and the DNROI. If they weren't, then every club would have different rules and different interpretations of the same rule, leading to disparity and (even more) confusion between clubs... I am assuming that the BOD and the DNROI are elected persons....If you don't like the way they are interpreting the rules, vote them out....But remember, you are also the ones who voted them in..... All in all, I didn't start this thread to get everyone in an uproar, nor to pi$$ anyone off....I started this thread because I saw something (IMO) which could lead to devastating consequences should something occur, to open the thought processes of the RO's running shooters to the possibilties that the rules leave open... And Chris Keen, I agree that it needs to be solid black and solid white...There is no room for gray area..... Edited May 5, 2011 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 A brilliant idea (at least I think it's a brilliant idea) just occurred to me. There is no need to change any rules, all can stay as they are. All that is needed is to add one defintion to the glossary: Dummy Round- any snap cap, practice round, empty case, training round or other object used to simulate an actual and complete bullet, for the purposes of cycling the action or checking the function of a magazine in an auto loading pistol, or for checking the cylinder or function of/for a revolver. Add that to the glossary, all this goes away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 No worries Grumpy! It's always interesting, to say the least, how different people come across on the internet (or in writing in general) maybe a little more or less pleasant than they do in person. Sometimes peoples intentions, thoughts, meanings, are misconstrued and they come off as "harsh". I don't think anyone got too heated here (I've seen worse, as I'm sure all the mods have too) and it was certainly a valid point of contention. Loop holes will always be found if you run 1,000,000 different scenarios over time. It's good that you brought it up, because this is one "hole" that I vehemently believe needs closing ASAP. We don't need "luke warm guns" on a "cold range". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 A brilliant idea (at least I think it's a brilliant idea) just occurred to me. There is no need to change any rules, all can stay as they are. All that is needed is to add one defintion to the glossary: Dummy Round- any snap cap, practice round, empty case, training round or other object used to simulate an actual and complete bullet, for the purposes of cycling the action or checking the function of a magazine in an auto loading pistol, or for checking the cylinder or function of/for a revolver. Add that to the glossary, all this goes away... This is an excellent suggestion as is helps clarify things, without having to change the verbiage or the feel of the current set of rules. It also allows for the case when the shooter pulls the slide back and part of the extractor, or ejector goes flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) Dummy Round- any snap cap, practice round, empty case, training round or other object. I like this better. IMO, no need to define the purpose of the dummy round. Edited May 5, 2011 by Singlestack to add IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 Dummy Round- any snap cap, practice round, empty case, training round or other object. I like this better. IMO, no need to define the purpose of the dummy round. Make it happen, captain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Dummy Round- any snap cap, practice round, empty case, training round or other object. I like this better. IMO, no need to define the purpose of the dummy round. Make it happen, captain! All that said... I agree with Flex and I do not think any change is neccessary. Like I said before, IMO, both you and DNROI are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 Singlestack.....I would agree with you if you were right..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Bad sign ....... bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 So, you guys are gonna DQ anybody, anytime you find they have something in the chamber, other than at MR.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Right. Chamber flag is a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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