CZ 75TS vs 2011

[Nemesis Lead]

I have shot Limited 10 and Limited with a Glock for the last year and have done well.

I was thinking of moving to a heavier gun and was considering either an STI 2011 or a CZ75 TS.

I know I am posting in the CZ forum, but I am guessing that many of you guys also have 2011 experience and are capable of being unbiased.

I am wondering about things like:

1) Out of the box reliability.

2) Recoil characteristics.

3) General ergonomics (any issues with racking the small slide on the CZ? Does one gun fit big hands or small ones better?).

4) Magazine reloading characteristics (is one faster to reload than the other?)

5) Ability to get a variety of aftermarket accessories (my big concern on the CZ)

6) Other issues as you see fit to discuss.

Notice--I don't care about price. This is my hobby and I will spend what it takes (within reason). But the CZ seems a darn good gun regardless of price.

[CZinSC]

Since no one has chimed in yet, I'll throw my two cents in...well...after reading, you might think it's only worth about 1/2 cent.

1 - there was a thread on this very subject, take a look and see if it answers your question TS Link

2 - don't know

3 - I haven't handled a TS, but I shoot an SP01. I can tell you that an STI feels MUCH better ergonomically in my hands. I have a hard time with my big mitts getting my weak hand on the gun in a position that I like. I picked up a few STI's last week at the FL Open vendor tables, and instantly I could feel the difference. My weak hand was able to get into the grip and get good surface contact on the gun. I don't know the profile similarities between the SP01 and TS, but if they are the same, I would much prefer the STI.

4 - don't know

5 - have you checked out www.czcustom.com ? Angus and crew have tons of stuff for all CZ's.

6 - As long as you are looking at CZ TS, have you checked out Tanfoglio? Here is a good comparison my buddy sent me the other day Tanfoglio vs STI

[Walküre]

- Generally excellent reliability, as long as you stick to rounder-profile FMJ/CMJ loads with 1.120"-1.130" OAL. (Most common factory 180gr FP loads will work fine and make nearer to 180 PF.)

- A 3#+ gun, the TS can absorb a lot of recoil. Lots of similar feel to me when switching between my major-loaded TS and my minor-loaded Shadow.

- Can't really answer that for you. Everybody likes different stuff. The TS is a handful due to its large frame; if you have smaller hands you may be well-served in having the grip reduced (as in the full-package "CTS" that CZC offers, and as some here have done on their own).

- I don't have any problems reloading with my TS setup (CZC 140mm extensions/pads, CZC magwell). Again, not something that can really be answered quantitatively. Some people may prefer certain magwell characteristics while others prefer different ones.

- What do you really need? There are plain-black and fiber-optic front sights available. The factory rear is a great fixed sight, and if you like adjustable rears, there are options from both LPA and Kensight/Champion available. CZC offers a few "performance" internals, like the comp hammer, stainless guide rod, and aluminum trigger. CZC offers a larger aluminum magwell - yeah, that's pretty much the only option (aside from the small factory one, or the lesser-seen-in-the-States-these-days "CZUB-style"), but it works just fine. Any full-size CZ grip panel can be cut down to work with the TS (need to trim it down to clear the magwell). The CZC 140mm basepads get you a 20+1 reloadable magazine right away, and Grams has spring+follower kits that should get you 21+1 reloadable.

- You could also consider Tanfo, but their reputation for reliability in .40S&W isn't the greatest. The new Mec-Gar mags that are coming show promise, but only time will tell. Large-frame Tanfos use a completely different frame design than the TS, in contrast to the extreme similarities that remain in small-frame Tanfos versus standard CZ 75s. They aren't as "beefy" as a stock TS.

[59Bassman]

I have very limited experience, but that doesn't stop me from having an opinion...

I'm a long time 1911 shooter, and competed in the 90's with my Kimber single stack. I shot a few S_I's then, and never really got accustomed to the grip.

I've recently purchased a CZ 75 Shadow to shoot USPSA Production and IDPA SSP (when legal). While I love my 1911, the CZ does have some advantages. I will say that the gun points a bit better for me. Also, while there is a bit less real estate for grabbing the slide to cycle, I don't notice an issue with this pistol. The 75's I've handled in .40 did not have an issue, either.

Another possibility to consider (since you said price is not the issue) is the CZCustom.com "CTS" in .40. CTS Custom This is a TS that's had the dustcover cut back a bit, and has had a bunch of work done to it. One of the guys I shoot with locally had one for a while (he goes through the guns quickly). I shot it, and was amazed at how smooth it was. This gun is probably a bit closer to what a worked-over 2011 would feel like. The owner had some issues with mag seating when loaded to full capacity, but that may be a tuning or spring issue.

You do lose a lot of aftermarket support with CZ's. The 2011 is a pretty well developed platform, and there will be plenty of places to get additional parts or service. With the CZ, you're limited to a few places for service or parts.

Sorry if this isn't a great deal of help.

[EricBudd]

The TS runs just fine as a limited gun. With the base pad extensions it will get 20+1 with no issues. Other than a magwell from Angus and maybe adjustable sights the gun is built to run out of the box. It is heavier than an S_I and there are fewer after market parts available. If you want to tinker to make the "perfect" gun, it might be a might not be the gun for you. If you want a reasonably priced out-of-Angus gun that will hold its own if you do your part (and like a heavy gun) the CZ might be a good option.

Regards,

Eric Budd

ps. The stock trigger is amazing. No need for a trigger job at all.

[Duke Nukem]

The answer may be this simple.

I have personally known shooters that went from the CZ/TS platform to the 2011 platform, but I don't know anybody that went from a 2011 to a CZ/TS.

[JakeMartens]

How many of them do you see in matches compared to the 2011

[Walküre]

How many of them do you see in matches compared to the 2011

Just because something isn't popular doesn't mean it doesn't work, or that it is automatically inferior.

CZs on a whole are not particularly popular in the US - not just for USPSA, but everything. And is as far as practical shooting is concerned, CZ platforms are reasonably popular with European IPSC shooters.

In some ways, it's a vicious circle - new shooters see everybody running 2011s in Limited and Open, so they buy a 2011 as their racegun, and so new shooters continue to see more 2011s than anything else. Many newer shooters are virtually unaware of the options from CZ (and Tanfoglio et al).

What it all boils down to in this case is personal preference. It doesn't matter if you choose the TS or one of many 2011 offerings out there, any path there will offer a package that is absolutely competitive in USPSA Limited. Some people prefer the TS over any 2011, just like some within the 2011 camp will prefer a 5" gun while others like a 6" gun (and some will prefer a grip body type A over type B, etc).

Try a bunch, find out what you like, and go with it.

[CeeZer]

As much as I'm a big fan of CZ Shadow (I shoot Prod Div in USPSA and IPSC), I have to say that if I were to shoot Limited or L10, I'd absolutely go for STI Edge or Eagle 5.0 with a couple of mods. That's for a 'cheap' gun. If one can afford SVI Infinity - go for it!!! There are also custom guns, a few worth mentioning but I won't do so this time.

If you are not a sponsored shooter - shoot what works FOR YOU! There are several outstanding guns that shine in every Div - if you are a good to very good shooter - use good/better guns to get you even higher in ranks. If not sponsored - you are shooting for yourself! Then, when you get to be a very good shooter, gun won't matter (to certain degree ).

[kitestir]

I would say to at least handle each if possible. I have the TS(and the older IPSC ST) and I really like the bigger grip. I have handled a few of the 2011's and my fat hands kind of roll over the magwell and I am not sure how much I like it. I would probably make it a point to shoot one now before buying one to see how it feels. Also the TS is heavier then the 2011. I just sent the TS out to have some lipo suction done to it and we'll see how it handles when it returns this week..... Also heavier can be a double edged sword. It will help a lot with recoil, but it may slow down your transitions. That is why I am trying the weight reduction to see if I can get it closer to the 2011 weight with a slightly larger grip.

Edited March 4, 2011 by kitestir

[Neomet]

I own both a 2011 and a pretty heavily modified TS. I can pretty much assure you that the TS will not hold you back at all. It is definitely a heavier gun than the S_I platform. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Darned if I know. Maybe one of these days I will go out and shoot drills with them back to back and see which one the clock prefers. I actually don't know anyone who has done that sort of testing. Is there a proven "ideal" weight for a Limited gun?? Sorry, I digress....

I am not sure that having fewer custom options is such a bad thing either, and I say this as, or maybe because, I love to tinker with stuff. With the TS you will spend your time shooting it rather than trying out your 8th thumb safety to see if you like it better.

With the CZ you get a very accurate, reliable platform with a very nice trigger, even stock. 20 round reloadable mags are just a basepad away and 21 reloadable with Grams springs/followers. No mag tuning needed, just plug and play.

There isn't a huge ass magwell to put on them yet, although I do fine with the one from Angus. You do have to run shorter ammo (1.135 max OAL) and keep away from JHP projectiles. If you rack from the back of the slide it is more difficult to rack the slide due to the smaller slide visible in that area. Looks are a personal choice, but I think the TS looks more utilitarian, where some of the S_Is are just drop dead gorgeous.

All in all think the TS is a great gun to shoot in Limited.

[Walküre]

If you rack from the back of the slide it is more difficult to rack the slide due to the smaller slide visible in that area.

Which is why CZ conveniently installs on the TS a slide-racker... er, rear sight.

I don't ever rack the CZ "normally" from the rear - I either rack over the top from the front portion of the slide or use the rear sight. (The factory rear really is about perfect in every respect, IMO - both in providing an excellent sight picture and allowing for an alternative means of racking the slide.)

[Neomet]

Yep, I go over the front as I have the adjustable rear.

[Nemesis Lead]

Thanks guys--some great feedback as always.

Just to confirm.....does the CZ have a larger grip (in terms of circumference) than the 2011?

[smokshwn]

How many of them do you see in matches compared to the 2011

Just because something isn't popular doesn't mean it doesn't work, or that it is automatically inferior.

If you take into account that "popularity" increases parts availability, knowledge base, second and third party parts support, accessory choices, etc etc etc then there is a valid argument to the idea that a not being the "popular" option invariably handicaps that option.

To the OP....yes the CZ can be a perfectly competitive platform. In my opinion the 2011 platform has some distinct advantages. One is the absolute variability to the platform....light gun, heavy gun, multiple options in stock guns, custom guns & builders, and unlimited support at matches. Not to mention all the intangibles that come from a huge knowledge base of loads, setups, experience and development due to the sheer sample size.

[Neomet]

Thanks guys--some great feedback as always.

Just to confirm.....does the CZ have a larger grip (in terms of circumference) than the 2011?

Stock yes. If you get the CTS or knock down the checkering on the stock grip the CZ actually has a smaller circumference. 5 3/4" vs 6 1/4" at mid grip on my guns

[CocoBolo]

I have to agree that the CZ TS is an excellent gun. I bought one and started shooting limited right out of the box with no issues shooting factory ammo. I started reloading and it ate my reloads. If you want a heavy gun you found one. The down side is that you have to load short and I had trouble using moly bullets but the Jacketed worked fine. My personal view of the gun is that it is a great gun for "B" class and below shooters. Since you are already in tune with the hinged trigger it might just work for you. I only shot about 10k rounds thru the gun but had absolutely no issues.

I started shooting open with a Gold Team another fine gun, but ran onto a deal on an STI based gun, once I switched to the 2011 platform I sold off the hinged trigger guns and have been shooting S_i limited and Open guns. There are a lot of advantages in the realm of parts and gunsmiths, I like the trigger better but honestly it is not a superior firearm and all of them that I have are custom built except the STI Edge, which I shoot in Limited and Limited 10. It eats any ammo from factory length out ot 1.200. The Edge and its my second, and I also had an SVI Limted gun barreled in both 9 mm and 40, all of them have had no problems and shot thousands of rounds with just basic cleaning, they are just tanks.

If you are serious about going all the way to GM etc, pickup a good used STI Edge and give it a run, after a couple years as your skill level improves you will probably want to trim the fat off it and go a little lighter etc and get a custom gun. I've shot lighter STI's like the Brazos and my SVI, and I prefer the heavier Edge but then again I'm not at the top skill level yet.

If you buy new be sure to get either the Dawson performace pack or the Brazos enhancement. They take the guns and shoot them and when you get it it will run. They do a decent trigger job on them, but later you will want it enhanced even more. Mine breaks at 1.75, crisp, and short reset. Pitch the recoil master and throw a 12# recoil spring in it with either a tungsten or steel guide rod after it breaks in. Shoot heavy bullets 200gr then work your way down as your recoil handling gets better. I like the 185gr Precisons with WST.

Edited March 8, 2011 by CocoBolo

[Walküre]

If you take into account that "popularity" increases parts availability, knowledge base, second and third party parts support, accessory choices, etc etc etc then there is a valid argument to the idea that a not being the "popular" option invariably handicaps that option.

Except that the CZ has all the necessary support. 20+1/21+1 reloadable magazines are readily available. Perfectly adequate magwells are available. Several different sighting arrangements are available without needing any mill work. Smiths are around, but frankly they aren't really needed a whole lot. (ontrast the minor variations from factory configurations in the most common CZ instances versus the relatively high level of custom-builds that populate the 2011 arena. I had an action job done on my TS when I originally ordered it from Angus (still breaks crisp at 1.625#) - it hasn't seen a smith since. Now, you might need to plan ahead and make sure you have spare parts around, as replacements aren't always immediately available (any factory parts stateside are reliant upon shipments from CZUB), but it's always a good idea to keep parts around before you actually need them.

And not having eleventy billion different aftermarket doo-dads available isn't a big deal if the few doo-dads that are available work well for you. Which is why one needs to try to figure out what works for them.

(Furthermore, this again just gets us into a vicious circle again... if people always choose the popular option because it is popular, there is never opportunity for anything else to come into use.)

[smokshwn]

So when Angus is out of stock or CZ is dragging their feet ....what do you do? For hell sakes even Angus sells STI/SVI parts.

Again, I don't have an issue with the platform whatsoever. But you cannot even begin to argue that that there is the same level of support for the CZ/Tanfo's as the S-I pattern guns.

As to the pride of being a trailblazer, that's fine. But you then also have to admit that blazing trail has it's drawbacks.

[Walküre]

So when Angus is out of stock or CZ is dragging their feet ....what do you do? For hell sakes even Angus sells STI/SVI parts.

Which is why you have spares; spares by their definition are obtained before you actually need them. I have spare springs, spare pins, spare extractors, spare slide stops... spare just about anything other than those parts that need gunsmith fitting, like the hammer, sear, and barrel. And really, if any of those go wrong in just about anything, you're screwed for the short-term regardless. And people wait for parts for 2011s too, you know. (After all, if there are tons of options, then I should go with the one that actually suits me best, right? - and not just get the first thing available that's sorta similar)

Again, I don't have an issue with the platform whatsoever. But you cannot even begin to argue that that there is the same level of support for the CZ/Tanfo's as the S-I pattern guns.

I never said that CZs have anywhere near the support of 2011s. They don't. I simply stated they have perfectly adequate support.

[redbird1976]

I bought the TS rather than the STI. I had been using a high-cap kimber that I converted to .40S&W so I had all my STI mags already. The entire CZ rig, including sights and mag bottoms, was still $300 less than the least expensive STI. The CZ is the best shooting pistol I've ever owned.

[ck1]

After reading through this thread what comes to mind for me is that maybe there's room for another CZ option rather than only "TS vs. S_I"..? Since a 2011 is an evolution of a 1911, in the same manner an evolution of say a Shadow, or just updated TS, maybe longer, built around the .40, and evolved into something slightly different that could accept S_I mags sure would be pretty interesting.

As someone who just went back to CZ's from 1911's (mostly because I shoot 9mm and prefer less drama with the CZ 's) I think there are things about the platform that are big pluses for competition shooting that many don't pay much attention to: lower bore-axis, lower mass slides out of the box, being able to get more support-hand on the gun, lighter triggers without risking hammer-follow or other bad behavior, etc... Just cause 1911-patterned guns are the most popular doesn't mean they're the best design.

[belus]

After reading through this thread what comes to mind for me is that maybe there's room for another CZ option rather than only "TS vs. S_I"..? Since a 2011 is an evolution of a 1911, in the same manner an evolution of say a Shadow, or just updated TS, maybe longer, built around the .40, and evolved into something slightly different that could accept S_I mags sure would be pretty interesting.

The Sphinx 3000 is a modular CZ derivative which can be configured to accept S_I magazines. It was highlighted in the July/August 2010 Front Sight.

Expensive, and I'm not aware of any current importers. Asking prices on GB were $2500 with no bids.

[Walküre]

...and evolved into something slightly different that could accept S_I mags sure would be pretty interesting.

But why?

2011 mags aren't greatly superior in Limited platforms - most guys are running 20+1 or 21+1, which can be very easily obtained with extremely high reliability using TS mags. And because the frame is shorter (front-to-back), the need to run longer OALs [which some 2011s prefer] is eliminated, and feeding of the .40S&W cartridge is generally better. (Compare, for example, to the large-frame Tanfos, which have been plagued with feed issues in .40S&W.)

The ST IPSC - the precursor to today's TS - was purpose-built as a Standard gun. And it fills that role - and the similar Limited role - just about perfectly.

The real problem with the TS (IMO) is its unnecessarily large grip frame - there's a lot of unnecessary steel on there, as is noted by the ability to shave down the grip considerably without any bad side-effects (see the CTS et al).

[askomiko]

Being from Europe, I started with CZ, and I've shot the CZ-platform a lot more than the 2011. So, for me, the 2011 grip seems impossible to get comfortable with. It's shaped like a brick. I almost hope I'd had started with a 2011, because they are very nice guns after all. But I have to say that the TS grip is somewhat weird with the original grip panels. I changed regular CZ75 grips to both of my TS's, and the result is pretty big, but better shaped grip. Which suits me, with semi big hands. I also grinded off some material under the beavertail to get an even higher grip, which also makes a big difference.

The regular CZ75 shape is very comfy straight from the box.

In 9mm, I love the TS, the recoil is almost non-existent. However, with TS .40, the recoil felt stronger than it does with Tanfoglio or 2011, with same power factor ammo. Which is weird.

So, 1) Out of the box reliability is good. Matches were more fun with CZ than they are now, pretty much 0 malfunctions ever.

2) Depends on the gun. In general, I prefer CZ to the 2011 recoil, since the slide is a bit lower, and sits lower in your grip, and as a result it flips less.

4) No difference

5) Finding a suitable holster for the TS might be the biggest search. Otherwise, no problems. I haven't seen titanium pimp my ride parts, but who cares.