Random Chronograph

[LChico]

please quote the specific line in the rulebook that supports your opinion,,, not trying to be difficult, I honestly dont know if I am missing something in the book.

I would have to go along with the group here that thinks random chrono is NOT supported by the rules. Just a quick "ancient" history review: Prior to 2004, the Chrono procedures listed in the rule books for USPSA were VERY different.

1. Random chrono and "selective testing" of ammo at chrono were specifically included as options. Examples of the "selective" version of chrono included testing class and division winners only (which meant chrono could be done after last shots fired and impact results). All references to Random & selective chrono were removed starting with the 2004 revision of the rules.

2. Two seperate chrono procedures were described. One was a very "short" version, where only 6 bullets were pulled and if the first bullet fired over the chrono made PF, you stopped there. You did not have to calculate average velocity unless you fired several that were under the declared PF. The second, "long" version was like the current chrono procedure, with a minimum of 3 bullets fired of 8 collected (see Appendix C2 for details).

When these entire sections were removed from the rulebook in 2004, I assumed it was not a typo. So my opinion that "Random," "selective," and "short" versions of chrono are not acceptable is based on the fact that they were all once supported by printed rules and have disappeared from the rule book.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[Skydiver]

I can see a way to make "random" testing and still comply with the rule book. Admittedly this is splitting hairs, but it does comply with C2.28, 42, and 43.

Step 1: Collect ammo from all competitors as per C2.28.

Step 2: Have all competitors stop by the chrono stage, and present their gun for testing as per C2.42.

Step 3: Using the results of "randomizer mechanism", the chrono officer determines whether to actually shoot rounds through the gun or not.

As mentioned previously in the thread, there is are various ways the "randomizer mechanism" can work: names from a hat, matching shooter sequence number, etc. Hopefully these are truly random, rather than arbitrary.

[sperman]

Sections 43:

43. The Chronograph Station is considered an official stage in the match and subject to all sections of this rule book.

If the chrono station is an official stage, then all shooters must participate. Right?

[mactiger]

See 5.6.1

"...every competitor..."

Troy

[Joe4d]

please quote the specific line in the rulebook that supports your opinion,,, not trying to be difficult, I honestly dont know if I am missing something in the book.

It's laid out in Appendix C2.....

Specifically sections 28, 42, and 43.....

Section 28:

28. An initial sample of eight rounds of ammunition will be collected from each competitor at a time and place determined by Match Officials. Match Officials may require that a competitor’s ammunition be retested at any time during the match and may collect further samples as necessary.

Sections 42 & 43:

42. The scores of a competitor who, for any reason, fails to present his firearm for testing at the designated time and location and/or who fails to provide sample rounds for testing whenever requested by a Match Official will be removed from the match results.

43. The Chronograph Station is considered an official stage in the match and subject to all sections of this rule book.

That's the section I read, it doesnt say anything about "everyone or no one" must shoot, only that the ammo would be collected from each competitor and shooters must submit to chrono if asked, It looks like it is totally up to the match director to decide who goes to the chrono.

[mactiger]

please quote the specific line in the rulebook that supports your opinion,,, not trying to be difficult, I honestly dont know if I am missing something in the book.

It's laid out in Appendix C2.....

Specifically sections 28, 42, and 43.....

Section 28:

28. An initial sample of eight rounds of ammunition will be collected from each competitor at a time and place determined by Match Officials. Match Officials may require that a competitor’s ammunition be retested at any time during the match and may collect further samples as necessary.

Sections 42 & 43:

42. The scores of a competitor who, for any reason, fails to present his firearm for testing at the designated time and location and/or who fails to provide sample rounds for testing whenever requested by a Match Official will be removed from the match results.

43. The Chronograph Station is considered an official stage in the match and subject to all sections of this rule book.

That's the section I read, it doesnt say anything about "everyone or no one" must shoot, only that the ammo would be collected from each competitor and shooters must submit to chrono if asked, It looks like it is totally up to the match director to decide who goes to the chrono.

No, it's not. 5.6.1 spells it out. Everyone must chrono if there is a chrono set up.

If not, it's declared power factor.

Troy

[Joe4d]

there it is,, thanks,, two parts of rule book, C 43, the Chrono is an official stage, and the Everyone in 5.6.1, looks like there can still be random retests, but everyone must test first.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Joe4d

[cyburg]

Or we could chrorno the ones who place. Like they do in other sports for doing. That way if the winer is in violation it would be corrected. Then everyone would make sure their ammo is at the right pf.

Just a thought

[Jim Watson]

Dang, all the way through and cyberg beats me to it.

Chronograph the way they drug test racehorses. Check out Win, Place, and Show... and when one is DQed, the 4th place to replace him.

Yes, I know that would require a rule change. Now it is all or none.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Jim Watson

[Flexmoney]

I've given this some thought over the years, as a Match Director. If you do extra chrono testing...it needs to be in addition to everybody getting tested.

I don't want to slow down the match, nor slow the posting of final results.

The stats office is at crunch time at the end of a match...there is no good reason to add to their workload. So, if you are wanting to test the win-place-show crowd I think you need to ad-lib that a bit...not wait for stats to post (everybody has their gear put away by then anyway). Other that the occasional dark horse, we often know who is going to be in the hunt to win a Major.

If you are going to do extra testing on random shooters or top shooters...when do you do it to keep from slowing the match?

The first shooter on a stage, after they have shot, will have all the rest of the squad wait on to shoot this stage...and the next stage (since they will rotate down the shooting order). You could pull ammo from them (preferably ammo that they had during the stage) and send them to chrono without backing up the match.

Also, on the last stage of the day, and after he/she has shot that stage, you could pull ammo and send a shooter to chrono. The only way that would really slow down the stats office at all is if the shooter failed to make their declared power factor.

The above would have minimal impact on the shooter's mental game...as they wouldn't be rushing to get to chrono and back.

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I can guess what happened to Chuck when he got chrono'd 3 extra times. Having seen him shoot, with his blazing fast doubles on paper targets, I am sure people couldn't believe he was shooting power factor. I've experienced similar reactions to shooting my Glock "flat".

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That brings up my next question...maybe Troy can answer it.

If a shooter suspects another shooter of low powered ammo, then it would seem the proper course of action would be to file a 3rd party arbitration? That way the accuser has some skin in the game.

[mactiger]

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That brings up my next question...maybe Troy can answer it.

If a shooter suspects another shooter of low powered ammo, then it would seem the proper course of action would be to file a 3rd party arbitration? That way the accuser has some skin in the game.

That's what I'd recommend. PF questions are commonly brought by RO's, but not always, so the best thing, IMO, for a competitor to do to get a fellow competitor tested is to file the arb. As you say, that way they have some skin in the game.

Troy

[AZGunut]

I have shot on a squad with a well known GM who routinely shoot no less than 3 or 4 different loads and staggers then in mags in the order or targets he must engage. It is OBVIOUS when watching him shoot that his ammo is not the same. But when he chrono's he is always barely major or just minor. My point is why does he think he needs to do this, and why hasn't he ever been questioned on it?

[Skydiver]

Good point by Troy about 5.6.1 and "every competitor"!

I may be publicly bombing the Arbitration section of the CRO course here, but I'll ask anyway since failing is also part of learning:

Putting myself in the shoes of the shooter who will file the 3rd party appeal, I would write something like this in the arbitration form:

Witnesses: myself

Protest and Arbitration Request: Although Competitor "Wandering Powder Measure" declared and was confirmed by the chronograph as shooting Major, I've observed that after the chrono stage, his gun has been shooting flatter, and that plates and poppers have not been falling with the same "authority" as in previous stages. I would like to request that his ammunition be retested as per Appendix C2, and if necessary the scores be recomputed based on the retest results.

Relevant rules: 5.6.1 (and subsections), C2.38, C2.39

If interviewed by the arb committee and asked for evidence, I would say: "Unfortunately, since video/audio evidence is not acceptable, and the dedicated ROs are stuck in their stages and can't compare how the gun was shooting and how steel was falling, and no other members of my squad want to get on "Wandering Powder Measure"'s bad side, I am the only witness available, and the only other evidence available would be a re-test.".

Is this even a valid arb request? Or does my request have to specifically say that I think that he is shooting minor? (Note that the request only hints at it but doesn't explicitly say so.)

Will my filing the arb request automatically trigger a retest? If so, does that mean I've automatically won the arb and I get my money back? Or do I only win the arb if the shooter retests as minor?

If in the process of collecting evidence, the arb committee requests that the shooter retest? Does that mean that I automatically won the arb and I get my money back?

If the retest shows that the shooter was shooting minor, but the shooter was shooting match ammo, and the delivery sample is also minor out of that gun but within the 10 PF range allowed (C3: Ammo Verification) and so as I understand things still considered as Major (C3: Power Factor), did I win or lose this arb?

[shred]

I'm ok with truly random chronos, rules permitting, though proving randomness can be problematic. Maybe some sort of process within EZWS that stamps a * next to all the shooters that are picked or something that would be tough to bypass for buddies or enemies of the MD... (Of course that didn't stop me from getting scored Minor at the last minute at an Area match long ago when the MD didn't like me, but that's a different story)

I've heard of matches where they integrate the chrono into a stage-- one port you shoot through will have a chrono behind it (presumably with a bulletproof shield over the works). It wouldn't be conclusive per the USPSA rules, but it could be a great way to flag potential 're-testees' for later. Anybody that fails to make declared PF gets to give the RO 8 rounds from what they brought to the line. Word of that stage would probably get out fast, but plant a few other 'mystery boxes' around other stages and occasionally move the stage-chrono between them.

[G-ManBart]

This would be easy to do and have it be fair. Just have one stage designated as the random picker stage. Have a bucket that you put numbered slips with the number of competitors on the squad, establish the shooting order, and then somebody picks a slip. The shooter from the shooting order that matches up with the selected slip is the random chrono winner. R,

Defeats the purpose of random checking. It is not sufficiently random if the competitors know when it will happen.

Okay, while the match is going on, have the RM/MD go to each stage and discretely give the ROs a random number. The ROs then either collect ammo from that shooter, if they've already shot, or get ammo from that shooter after they finish a stage...from dropped mags, or ones on their belt. The RM/MD won't know what the squad order is, so they're not going to know who they're selecting. Since nobody would know when the RM/MD was going to do this, they wouldn't know what stage to have their "special" ammo ready. They have by the end of the day to report to the chrono.

I don't care if we do random testing, but it might make a few people be more honest, not that I think it's a huge problem. R,

[Nik Habicht]

Why do we need to switch to random testing? Does a real chrono stage really slow down the works that much? Or is it that we want random retesting?

Certainly the pulling of ammo from competitors could be improved -- over the current "fill the baggie on the first stage" procedure.....

The squad that's starting at chrono, and the squad that's second, are going to be hard to do differently -- though the squad that's second could be open to some creative collection procedure. All other squads could be visited by assistant chrono officers, at random times, to collect bullet samples. They could pull bullets from a competitor's discarded mags, could grab other competitor's ammo off their belt, and hand still others a baggie for the usual collection.....

They could even return to visit some squad's a second time, returning a first sample and collecting a second sample, from some or all shooters. It all comes down to how badly someone wants to run a quality chrono -- because clearly this is labor intensive, i.e. one would need to recruit and pay for additional staff.....

[Jim Norman]

So, Nik, you are proposing a 3rd member of the Chrono team. I sort of like the idea of revisiting shooters and exchanging samples. What we have done at OB is to take ammo from the shooter when the get to the stage. We do that by taking a mag off the shooters belt. True a shooter knowing that he is coming to chrono could load all his mags with his 'special' blend, but that would require that he have that mcu special ammo since I always refuse the offered mag. He has know way of knowing plus on occasion I take ammo from his bag.

Pretty much works. At the club I don't weigh. Time is always critical.

Come to think of it, it is time that we do another chrono stage. Probably this spring.

Jim

[Charles Bond]

Jim you are doing your local shooters a favor by having a chrono stage at your local match. Many of them have no idea what power factor they are shooting because either they do not load their own or just shoot factor ammo. Many others do not have a chrono.

[pjb45]

Every Rio Salado (10+?) and 4 match (1) I have ever been to, has had a chrono. No big deal. Rio also had a random chrono. It works. If they can do it, I suspect others can also?

[kevin c]

If the chrono is to insure compliance with stated PF, then I think it should be all or none, just as it stands now in the current rules.

Random here to me means a way of trying to keep folks from gaming the chrono. Random selection out of all the competitors' ammunition, or, better yet, suprise collection off their belts might be among the more effective ways.

[Chills1994]

well...I started writing a long respponse but my so called smart phone ate it.

I am with Nik!

Have the scorekeeper collect the 8 rounds from discarded mags that are on the ground.

then the scorekeeper ink stamps the comeptitor's stronghand with a "CHRONO" rubber stamp.

the guy who swings by on the ATV to pick up the scoresheets also picks up the to be chrono'ed yet ammo samples and drops them off at the chrono stage.

as far as being random and testing everyone, it can go like this....let's assume there are ten stages and that there 10 shooters per squad.

stage 1 selects the 9th shooter

stage 2 the 7th shooter

stage 3 the 5th shooter

stage 4 the 3rd shooter

stage 5 the 1st shooter

stage 6 the 10th shooter

stage 7 the 8th shooter

stage 8 the 6th shooter

stage 9 the 4th shooter

stage 10 the 2nd shooter

and/or the tenth stage or the last stage of the day the scorekeeper grabs anyone's ammo who doesn't have "chrono" stamped on their hand.

that way it is both "random" and gets everybody.

[Chills1994]

whoever has the "CHRONO" stamp on their hand can go over to the chrono stage at any time say like before or after lunch and at the end of the first day or between stages. the chrono RO's then look through their boxes of collected samples finds the labeled zip lock bag and runs that ammo through that guy's gun. then he stamps the guy's hand with "MAJOR" or "'MINOR" or "NOT FOR SCORE"....then that shooter goes back with the rest of his squad to whatever the next stage is.

the side benefit of course is that the competitors show the rest of their squadmates that they have been checked and are in the clear.

[Skydiver]

Still won't work... The guys without the hand stamps will start putting in their "chrono ammo", and the one with the "chrono" handstamps can start putting in their "match ammo" since their bullets have already been collected. It also gets down to the point that that the last persons without a stamp know that their bullets will be collected.

[Gary Stevens]

Assuming you could develop a random chronograph process that would work, it is still illegal per rule.

[pvhendrix]

Assuming you could develop a random chronograph process that would work, it is still illegal per rule.

Gary,

Apparently there, has been or is much more "suspected cheating", ongoing than I've ever thought in 30+ years of shooting these matches. I've been shooting since we tested with the gong and timed with stop-watches, like you. I've witnessed maybe 3 people over the years that may have not been shooting what was declared. My exposure has been mainly east coast. You've traveled much more than I in this sport. Have I missed something?