Random Chronograph

[Joe4d]

I recently saw a major, match anouncement that stated, "Random Chronograph" I interpreted this to be competitors would be randomly selected to shoot the chrono. I guess it could also mean the ammo would be collected randomly IAW C.2.28,,, But assuming they meant Random shooters, this makes me wonder if the rules support this. Seams like there would be too much room for bias. The rulebook states ammo would be collected from "each" shooter, but I dont see anything that says "each" shooter actually has to shoot, Unless I am am missing something I would have to say since rule book doesnt say one way or the other it is up to the MD to decide selection criteria.

[Sarge]

I wonder if it means they will collect ammo randomly from each shooter for testing as opposed to just letting the shooter pick the ammo to put in the bag?

[spanky]

I think any random testing should be legal.

[mlmiller1]

Random testing is, in my opinion, a REALLY bad idea. The reality is even if it is truly random, it will have the appearance of being "selective" testing. The MD's buddy doesn't get tested, the Hot Shot shooter that drove in from a long ways away doesn't get tested, the guy that questioned the r.o. on the last stage about a particular hit does get tested, it all looks crooked. I try to stay as far away from anything that looks crooked as I can, even if I think it might not be crooked. Test everyone or no one.

If you absolutely positively only want to test randomly, you have to have a drawing or something with everyone's name in it & even then, unless I see you put your name in the draw jug, I will believe certain folks may have cheated.

No, I don't trust everyone. Most people don't. Keep it all above board, test everyone or test noone.

MLM

[Gary Johnson]

In my experience 'random' means only those suspected of underpowered ammo have to go. I discourage random selection methods like flipping a coin or drawing names out of a hat. It has a negative effect on match flow and seems, in my unofficially personal opinion, unfair. That said, I am not aware of any rule or official policy forbidding the practice.

ETA: Happy New Year everyone!

I recently saw a major, match anouncement that stated, "Random Chronograph" I interpreted this to be competitors would be randomly selected to shoot the chrono. I guess it could also mean the ammo would be collected randomly IAW C.2.28,,, But assuming they meant Random shooters, this makes me wonder if the rules support this. Seams like there would be too much room for bias. The rulebook states ammo would be collected from "each" shooter, but I dont see anything that says "each" shooter actually has to shoot, Unless I am am missing something I would have to say since rule book doesnt say one way or the other it is up to the MD to decide selection criteria.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Gary Johnson

[Chuck Anderson]

My first major match was the 2001 Area 1 in Marysville, WA. I had some issues with my press at home and loaded on a buddy's. Ended up coming in barely major, like 165.1 range. I was "randomly" drawn three additional times during the match for retest. Made major each time, but left me with a very bad taste in my mouth for the match and for that range. The only people that were "randomly" drawn during the match to go a second time were those competitors that were close to the PF floor. Made it really obvious what they were doing.

[Gary Johnson]

Can't speak to your experience but in general, sending someone to chrono for a spot check should only happen if range staff reasonably believe a safety (faulty ammo) or fairness (cheating) issue exists.

Making PF by the skin of your teeth is evidence of neither.

My first major match was the 2001 Area 1 in Marysville, WA. I had some issues with my press at home and loaded on a buddy's. Ended up coming in barely major, like 165.1 range. I was "randomly" drawn three additional times during the match for retest. Made major each time, but left me with a very bad taste in my mouth for the match and for that range. The only people that were "randomly" drawn during the match to go a second time were those competitors that were close to the PF floor. Made it really obvious what they were doing.

[mlmiller1]

As you might guess, I'm against random but I'm in agreement in one part with Gary about if you draw names or whatever, it does have a negative effect on a match. It adds stress, etc but it is as fair as any way IF you insist on random checking.

Safety issues with ammo are a different thing altogether & isn't random at all. It is very specific & there should be very good reasons for checking someone's ammo due to a safety issue. Safety above all else, of course.

I think picking certain people because someone is "suspicious" does not fit the definition of "random" at all. How about you call it "we think you are cheating so go chrono" or "someone wants to disturb your match flow because you might be beating them so they accuse you of cheating" instead of random? To remove any personal bias from this would mean to remove all match staff & r.o.s from competing in the match, etc. I've seen just as much unfairness from one side of this as another.

Here is a definition of random: Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective.

Just chrono everyone or no one.

Of course this is just my unofficial personal opinion, meaning no disrespect to anyone else's opinion.

MLM

[G-ManBart]

This would be easy to do and have it be fair. Just have one stage designated as the random picker stage. Have a bucket that you put numbered slips with the number of competitors on the squad, establish the shooting order, and then somebody picks a slip. The shooter from the shooting order that matches up with the selected slip is the random chrono winner. R,

[mlmiller1]

G-man, not a bad idea if there is any real reason to have random chrono. Good one!

MLM

[wide45]

This would be easy to do and have it be fair. Just have one stage designated as the random picker stage. Have a bucket that you put numbered slips with the number of competitors on the squad, establish the shooting order, and then somebody picks a slip. The shooter from the shooting order that matches up with the selected slip is the random chrono winner. R,

Defeats the purpose of random checking. It is not sufficiently random if the competitors know when it will happen.

Edited January 1, 2011 by wide45

[warpspeed]

Check everyone or check no one. Why only a few of the competitors ? What is gained ?

Just have a stage where the chrono is set up and run everyone through it after they have shot the stage but before they ULSC.

Real easy.

[Cy Soto]

I was "randomly" drawn three additional times during the match for retest.

Gee, talk about a witch hunt! I was under the impression that you only got to go through chrono one (whether you made PF or not).

[bbbean]

I'd *much* prefer to see random testing to having a dedicated stage that ties up every squad and a couple of ROs all day long. This assumes shooters are genuinely chosen at random, but this is easy enough to do with a random number generator or even by by drawing names out of a hat. FWIW, I'd also have no problem with taking rounds off a competitors belt at the start of a stage instead of the current system of having competitors self-select 8 rounds to hand over on stage one. The current system could much more easily be gamed by simply having a chrono load and them running softer ammo for the match. I'm pretty sure 95+% of us are making a good faith effort to run ammo that makes power factor, and aren't going to change what ammo we run regardless of the method of testing. But random testing might provide a better incentive to that 1-5% who try to gain an advantage by running illegal ammo.

FWIW, the objections I've seen so far seem to be objections to specifically non-random testing. Selecting shooters based on behavior, suspicious gun handling, local politics, hair color, or RO in-law status are not examples of random testing.

[Flatland Shooter]

Per the rule book, random chrono testing is not legal. But from the view of the match officials, it may be a case of trying to put on the best match they can with limited resources.

At a match that everyone knows there will be no chrono stage, there will be a shooter or two that will be tempted to shoot a load that barely makes major. No risk but for most shooters very little will be gained.

At a match with a chrono stage, those same one or two competitors will do the loading required to make major every time. Lots of risk so all but the really stupid will intentionally cut their loads too close for comfort.

I think the random testing is an attempt by the match officials to at least try and keep a level playing field for all competitors. They will resort to this bending of the rules only when they know they will not have the time or staff to test everyone. And hopefully those one or two shooters described above do not want to take the risk being selected and end up shooting minor.

Now if its a case where the MD's best friend does not get chrono'd or the PIA on Stage 7 gets chrono'd just because he is a PIA, then it is not random and cannot be condoned.

I've shot a number of matches where the selection process for the chorongraph is random and I've never noticed any irregularities. If the MD and staff are going to all that trouble to put on a quality match, I can't see where they would compromise their match reputation for something so trivial. Not to say it has not been done, just saying it don't make any sense.

If its truly random, the MD must figure how they will make their selections and let the competitors know the method. As long as its fair, I would think there would be no complaints.

As for me, chrono or not, I know I will be shooting Major. Given a choice between running everyone over a chrono or adding an extra fun filled stage, I take the stage any day.

Bill

[Nik Habicht]

I was "randomly" drawn three additional times during the match for retest.

Gee, talk about a witch hunt! I was under the impression that you only got to go through chrono one (whether you made PF or not).

Under current rules, retesting of competitor's ammo remains legal -- for any reason.....

From Appendix C2:

28. An initial sample of eight rounds of ammunition will be collected from each competitor at a time and place determined by Match Officials. Match Officials may require that a competitor’s ammunition be retested at any time during the match and may collect further samples as necessary.

[Joe4d]

Flatland shooter, you state, "Per the rule book, random chrono testing is not legal." where in the rulebook did you find that ? That was the direction I was going with this thread, not so much whether it is right or wrong, but is it in accordance with the rules or not.

[Jim Norman]

I just read the new rule book and the reference to Chrono is that it appears to be all or nothing except for very specific reasons. So it is MY OPINION that you cannot go around and tap people on the shoulder and send them off to Chrono.

Now some can argue that if it isn't prohibited, it is allowed, but that is within the FreeStyle COF, not with the match administration.

[Joe4d]

please quote the specific line in the rulebook that supports your opinion,,, not trying to be difficult, I honestly dont know if I am missing something in the book.

[pjb45]

I was at a match at Rio Salado where they did a regular and random chrono. Mike Voigt, several GMs and I were on the squad that had the entire squad line up and several members of the squad had to give another eight rounds and head over to chrono before the match ended. Several of the GMs were all for it.

Quite frankly I liked it. I am all for it.

I have been on two National squads were several shooters had nice muzzle flip for the first two stages, then their muzzles were flat for the rest of the match. At one match even one of the ROs remarked about how flat one of the competitors gun was shooting.

[Cy Soto]

Well, truth be told I think I witnessed a shooter switching ammo once right before going to chrono but, who is to say that a person who is doing this won't switch bullets a second time.

Edited to ad:

In this case what I saw was a person who was shooting moly-coated bullets in the stages before and after the chronograph but, when he arrived at the chrono station, he gave the RO a magazine filled with FMJ bullets taken out of a store-bought WWB.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Cy Soto

[WDB]

I with the crowd of "everyone or no one" It's easy enough to cheat the chrono as it is. Let's not make it any easier.

[GrumpyOne]

Well, truth be told I think I witnessed a shooter switching ammo once right before going to chrono but, who is to say that a person who is doing this won't switch bullets a second time.

Edited to ad:

In this case what I saw was a person who was shooting moly-coated bullets in the stages before and after the chronograph but, when he arrived at the chrono station, he gave the RO a magazine filled with FMJ bullets taken out of a store-bought WWB.

That's the same type of person who would stick out a knee while standing on the sideline of the football field and trip someone. No character, no qualms, etc. Should be banned from the sport.

Wouldn't it be better if you, the shooter, were required to lay out all the ammo you would be using in the match, down to the last round, and have the chrono guys choose the sample? Even is this meant they had to choose a sample 8 rounds out of 500 rounds, it would still be better than having the shooter hand over the rounds he/she wants tested....

This, IMO, boils down to baseball players taking HGH, football players taking steroids, etc. It's cheating and it's wrong.

[Nik Habicht]

please quote the specific line in the rulebook that supports your opinion,,, not trying to be difficult, I honestly dont know if I am missing something in the book.

It's laid out in Appendix C2.....

Specifically sections 28, 42, and 43.....

Section 28:

28. An initial sample of eight rounds of ammunition will be collected from each competitor at a time and place determined by Match Officials. Match Officials may require that a competitor’s ammunition be retested at any time during the match and may collect further samples as necessary.

Sections 42 & 43:

42. The scores of a competitor who, for any reason, fails to present his firearm for testing at the designated time and location and/or who fails to provide sample rounds for testing whenever requested by a Match Official will be removed from the match results.

43. The Chronograph Station is considered an official stage in the match and subject to all sections of this rule book.

[Skydiver]

Check everyone or check no one. Why only a few of the competitors ? What is gained ?

Just have a stage where the chrono is set up and run everyone through it after they have shot the stage but before they ULSC.

Real easy.

It's not that easy. Consider the logistics.

Do you have the shooter hand a loaded gun to the chrono officer?

If not, is there any penalty if the shooter accidentally (or deliberately) shoots the chronograph? I don't think you can DQ for shooting a prop.

If the shooter was as production or L10 shooter, and there are not enough bullets in the last magazine still in the gun, do you have the shooter retrieve their dropped mags and hope they have at least 8 bullets?

If the shooter is a revolver shooter, and they used all their moonclips through the course, do you have the shooter go back through the course to scavenge bullets?

A shooter can request that 6 shots be fired before shooting over the chrono (C2.48). What if the competitor miscounted and ends up with less than 8 rounds after the fouling shots?

I don't think you are allowed to let a shooter leave the shooting area with a loaded gun, so can you require a shooter to put in a dropped and presumably dirty magazine or moonclip into their gun? Can a shooter refuse? Do you DQ the shooter for refusing a reasonable instruction? Or is it unreasonable to tell a shooter to put a dirty magazine or moonclip into their gun?

I assume that you'll be weighing the bullet that comes out when the finally Unload and Show Clear, will you have the RO who is watching the gun now have to watch for where the 8th bullet flies off to? What if the bullet can't be found?

What if shooter arbitrates and says that bullet picked up off the ground was not his?

Once the shooter has unloaded and shown clear, do you have them empty a mag and put their production gun on the scale?

If there is no chrono officer, do you have the shooter show the RO that the firing pin block is still properly installed in their production gun?

What if in the process of showing that the firing pin block is still present, the shooter sweeps himself or breaks the 180?

What if the shooter drops his gun in the process of showing the underside of the slide?

Edited January 2, 2011 by Skydiver