Doug H. Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 (edited) I agree that limited 10 open shotgun is stupid. Agreed. Only USPSA has the 10 round mag limit. Every outlaw match I have shot and even IPSC has no limit on mag capacity in Open. You can only hope that USPSA will wake up. As for letting Saigas in Tactical, I don't have a problem with it, but I'm sure many Tactical shooters will. Doug Edited October 29, 2010 by Doug H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mig Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 I say let them into tactical with the same round restrictions as tube guns, 8+1, then see how they hold up. Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmshozer1 Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 I'm an above average tube loader.Takes me eight to ten seconds to reload eight rds. That is after a lot of practice.I am faster than most people I shoot against. At big matches, I hold my own. Everyone knows that reloading is everything in a shotgun stage. How the hell can I compete with a Saiga shooter that can with very little practice load eight rds. in two seconds. Even the big boys take six or seven seconds to load eight. That is a difference of four or five seconds each reload! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Arms race...simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmshozer1 Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 I hope the rules keep the playing field level as far as equipment goes. Then let the boys and girls fight it out on equal ground. Money should not be the difference between who has the advantage in our game. But, I realize that it can and does make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmich Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Keep saiga's out of tactical, open only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 As an open Saiga shooter, I'd have to agree that it belongs in open only. But in open, the 10 round limit in USPSA is ridiculous. I have respect for the skills of the tube loaders though. The fine motor skills to run the tubes is extreme compared to loading a 10 round mag with a magwell. I like the speed of shooting open, but feel better about myself and my skills when I shoot tac optics, and do it well. I would not shoot any other division with my Saiga with less than 8 round mags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 (edited) How the hell can I compete with a Saiga shooter that can with very little practice load eight rds. in two seconds. Results attached are a shotgun only match from this weekend. Each Stage was around 20 rounds required. There were some areas with a lot of standing reloads required. All of our open shooters (except for Kelly who was stuffing his tube by hand) were using Saiga-12s. Saigas required a dedicated educated user to learn the quirks of their particular gun, and stay on top of preventative maintenance more than any other shotgun I've ever used. You also do need to practice reloading A LOT or you're going to mess it up. You're also assuming all Saiga shooters want to dump a couple grand into what should be a $400 gun. I'm never going to put more than $500 into one after shooting one to death in less than 10,000 rounds. Like most combloc guns they are made to be disposable. halloweenhorror.pdf Edited November 1, 2010 by SinistralRifleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmshozer1 Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 How the hell can I compete with a Saiga shooter that can with very little practice load eight rds. in two seconds. Results attached are a shotgun only match from this weekend. Each Stage was around 20 rounds required. There were some areas with a lot of standing reloads required. All of our open shooters (except for Kelly who was stuffing his tube by hand) were using Saiga-12s. Saigas required a dedicated educated user to learn the quirks of their particular gun, and stay on top of preventative maintenance more than any other shotgun I've ever used. You also do need to practice reloading A LOT or you're going to mess it up. You're also assuming all Saiga shooters want to dump a couple grand into what should be a $400 gun. I'm never going to put more than $500 into one after shooting one to death in less than 10,000 rounds. Like most combloc guns they are made to be disposable. Rifleman, Watched the video of the match on another thread. Great match! Being from upper N.Y. State,I only get out that way when I shoot Mystery Mountain every couple of years. From what I have personally seen, the only Saiga's that run are the ones that have been sent away and cost a bunch. The shooters that have them do not seem to have put the time into the game. By the way they shoot some stages it is obvious that they are depending on equipment more than stage thought. Not all, but most of the ones I have seen. I think stage design has a lot to do with how much advantage a Saiga has over a tube loader. Even when a non tricked out Saiga that is malfunctioning and is in the hands of a so so shooter, their time on a high round count stage is better than mine. They are in open so it does not effect me but it would if they are put in tactical with me. Put a running Saiga in the hands of a experienced shooter, shooting against a equally experienced tube shooter and I would bet the Saiga would trash the tube guy I will admit that shooting a running Saiga has got to be a blast!! Maybe someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 I was shooting a Benny Hill Benelli M1 that holds 11 rounds (via ghostloading) and loading by hand (no speedloaders). I did switch from Tactical to Open to get the extra 2 rounds to have a better shot against the Saigas in the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wkev Posted November 22, 2010 Share Posted November 22, 2010 I shoot a Saiga with the rest of my gear essentially TacOptics (Production pistol). I don't have a magwell on it yet, so to do consistent reloads I have to lock the bolt back. I don't think there is much advantage over a tube gun without a magwell. With a magwell in Open, I don't know that it is much advantage over the speedloader tubes. If Open got rid of the 10 round limits, it would start making a difference. I think letting a Saiga without a magwell into TacOptics and HMTactical wouldn't show an advantage at all. But, I may be biased since that's where I would like to shoot. Kevin Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 People are buying these shotguns in increasing numbers. Match directors are going to have to contend with new shooters who show up with a rifle and pistol that fit in Tactical Scope or Iron division and a shotgun that lands them squarely in Open. Is it really fair to shoehorn first-time shooters into the gamer crowd with all the gear that gives them every advantage? I mean, it seems like kind of a crappy thing to do. At the same time, I don't think the Saigas, even if they have to Perhaps the solution is to do what R&R has done at their match, which is to create a new division that basically boils down to "Tactical, but with Saigas." Yeah yeah yeah, I know, the last thing that 3 gun needs is yet another division... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I shoot a Saiga with the rest of my gear essentially TacOptics (Production pistol). I don't have a magwell on it yet, so to do consistent reloads I have to lock the bolt back. I don't think there is much advantage over a tube gun without a magwell. With a magwell in Open, I don't know that it is much advantage over the speedloader tubes. If Open got rid of the 10 round limits, it would start making a difference. I think letting a Saiga without a magwell into TacOptics and HMTactical wouldn't show an advantage at all. But, I may be biased since that's where I would like to shoot. Kevin Walker A magwell does not solve the load on closed bolt problem Only a mod to the bolt does that I only shoot the USPSA multigun nats...its the only 10 round limit match At all the others I use 16 to 20 round mags Let it into tac with all the current tac rules Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 you say that, yet you shoot open, not tac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 you say that, yet you shoot open, not tac. I say this because its a $400.00 gun (cheap when compaired to most) and readily available to all In simple form with a mag restriction it poses no real threat of wipeing out the competition due to loading advantages People are resistive to change..myself included..but to stagnate advances in equipment is not in our long term best interest. I play by the rules and wont complain about any given set in any given match...this is just my opinion on the subject In the end I see the only affect would be to make shotgun shooting, more about shooting and a little less about loading JMHO Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gohuskers Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I agree that limited 10 open shotgun is stupid. Agreed. +1 - what would be the point really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I agree that limited 10 open shotgun is stupid. Agreed. +1 - what would be the point really? As long as there are rules like that one and more, USPSA multigun will have difficulty keeping shooters. Outlaw for me. Isn't it an unsportsmanlike conduct DQ if you accidentally put in 11? I can see how it is possible to lose count unless you get your 12+1 tube gun blocked to 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 The USPSA multigun rules are provisional and can be amended at any time so if this is what is sticking in your craw, contact your president and area director. But be aware they have heard repeatedly that "I would shoot USPSA MG if....". The rule changes and yet the member does not follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Isn't it an unsportsmanlike conduct DQ if you accidentally put in 11? I can see how it is possible to lose count unless you get your 12+1 tube gun blocked to 10. I'm thinking that since you would have busted division requirements with that, you'd be shooting for fun only -- but it's not a dq, in the sense that you wouldn't be allowed to finish.... I have routinely reset the mag capacity on my 1100, depending on which state I was shooting in -- but that has more to do with actual, rather than rule, legalities.... Multiple extensions with matched, tuned, proven springs make that easy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Isn't it an unsportsmanlike conduct DQ if you accidentally put in 11? I can see how it is possible to lose count unless you get your 12+1 tube gun blocked to 10. I'm thinking that since you would have busted division requirements with that, you'd be shooting for fun only -- but it's not a dq, in the sense that you wouldn't be allowed to finish.... I have routinely reset the mag capacity on my 1100, depending on which state I was shooting in -- but that has more to do with actual, rather than rule, legalities.... Multiple extensions with matched, tuned, proven springs make that easy.... This might better be addressed as what should the rule be? On the one hand I can see how this could be an accident. On the other hand I can see that if it is not a DQ, there may be too much incentive to try and get by with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 This might better be addressed as what should the rule be? On the one hand I can see how this could be an accident. On the other hand I can see that if it is not a DQ, there may be too much incentive to try and get by with this. I think the easiest solution would be to make open - open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Whats the big deal with forcing people who want to stay competitive in Tactical to buy a Saiga, Saigas are cheap... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Whats the big deal with forcing people who want to stay competitive in Tactical to buy a Saiga, Saigas are cheap... Your correct the shotgun is chaap. But the price of the modifications will rock you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Whats the big deal with forcing people who want to stay competitive in Tactical to buy a Saiga, Saigas are cheap... Your correct the shotgun is chaap. But the price of the modifications will rock you. Nah, my Saiga cost less than $600 to put together, including the cost of the gun - about the same as tricking out a used Remington 1100, and a lot less than a Spaghetti Gun. What makes the Saigas expensive is that you really need to buy two so you have one as a spare parts donor. Edited January 10, 2011 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Whats the big deal with forcing people who want to stay competitive in Tactical to buy a Saiga, Saigas are cheap... Your correct the shotgun is chaap. But the price of the modifications will rock you. Nah, my Saiga cost less than $600 to put together, including the cost of the gun - about the same as tricking out a used Remington 1100, and a lot less than a Spaghetti Gun. What makes the Saigas expensive is that you really need to buy two so you have one as a spare parts donor. Well if you do without the mag well, do not need chokes and do not care if it locks open on the last shot, you can just shoot it stock.........until you get tired of shooting against guns that have these modifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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