Prop Guns

[Corey]

Ran into a prop gun yesterday at a local 3gun. 410 pistol grip pump shotgun, 3 shots for 2 clays at about 15 feet. After it jammed on me BAD the first time and the RO stopped the COF and reset everything it was ok i guess, haha. glad it was only 1 prop gun for the 5 stages. It was a nice little twist, but id hate to see a lot of them in a match...

Edited September 13, 2010 by Corey

[gerritm]

We spent over 2 hours on the scatter gun stage. The gun broke half way thru our squad. It had to be repaired before we could finish. It had to be cooled before each shooter.If there was approx. 100 shooters with 12 or 13 steels, it had at least 1k rounds thru it. Most of our comp shotguns would have a hard time running that hard on that hot a day. By the time I shot it the right hand hammer was almost impossible to cock. It would have been good to shoot the balance of the stage with our shotguns and used the double for the last couple of steels as a pickup gun.

[Bryan 45]

Like some of the others have said, I like prop guns in moderation. A few shots on close targets with a full auto something or 'nother is a lot of fun. I like the idea of "off the clock" shots on distant targets, especially when Barrett is a sponsor! An entire stage with a prop gun can only lead to frustration and reshoots.

I haven't shot enough blind stages at matches yet to form an opinion on these. I enjoyed the one at '09 FB3G, but was disappointed in my time compared to others in my divison. I found myself spending far too long scanning for targets. I also was disappointed with my time at the Cave Stage at '10 BRM3G. I was much too cautious running down a narrow path in a dark cave with a loaded handgun. But, these issues had nothing to do with either the stages themselves or the other competitiors.

[abn-rgr]

Like some of the others have said, I like prop guns in moderation. A few shots on close targets with a full auto something or 'nother is a lot of fun. I like the idea of "off the clock" shots on distant targets, especially when Barrett is a sponsor! An entire stage with a prop gun can only lead to frustration and reshoots.

I haven't shot enough blind stages at matches yet to form an opinion on these. I enjoyed the one at '09 FB3G, but was disappointed in my time compared to others in my divison. I found myself spending far too long scanning for targets. I also was disappointed with my time at the Cave Stage at '10 BRM3G. I was much too cautious running down a narrow path in a dark cave with a loaded handgun. But, these issues had nothing to do with either the stages themselves or the other competitiors.

The cave stage was one of the best Ive ever seen.........until I got to the prop guns. I can definitely say, a prop gun with a blind stge????? No good in my opinion.

[TMC]

I'm not a fan, its something out of my control that I cant't practice with and can hurt my score. At the Multigun Nationals they had an M240 with a Trijicon scope and 10 rounds to engage 3 targets at about 40 yards with one no-shoot between two of them. A couple of the guys hit the no-shoot and some ran out of ammo because of trigger control. Sure everybody had to do it but some guys (current or former military/LE come to mind) are much better with machine guns that others.

[mpeltier]

Like some of the others have said, I like prop guns in moderation. A few shots on close targets with a full auto something or 'nother is a lot of fun. I like the idea of "off the clock" shots on distant targets, especially when Barrett is a sponsor! An entire stage with a prop gun can only lead to frustration and reshoots.

I haven't shot enough blind stages at matches yet to form an opinion on these. I enjoyed the one at '09 FB3G, but was disappointed in my time compared to others in my divison. I found myself spending far too long scanning for targets. I also was disappointed with my time at the Cave Stage at '10 BRM3G. I was much too cautious running down a narrow path in a dark cave with a loaded handgun. But, these issues had nothing to do with either the stages themselves or the other competitiors.

The cave stage was one of the best Ive ever seen.........until I got to the prop guns. I can definitely say, a prop gun with a blind stge????? No good in my opinion.

Totally agree. Prior to shooting the cave stage, I was pretty much indifferent about prop guns. I felt that they were ok and the very brief nature of using them was not very memorable (one shot with a Barrett .50 or 6 shots with a ACR happens so fast there is little time to savor the moment). But clearly 50% of our squad (me included) had issues with the .22 rifle in the cave. It severely hurt the times of those it choked for. This would have been an unfair dissadvantage beyond the shooters control for many shooters on that stage. No alternative or reshoots were offered.

so in the wise words of Doc Holiday "Now I know I hate-em".

[EkuJustice]

I am not a fan of them as it puts the reliability in someones hand other than the shooter. It also allows for someone to be manipulating a gun they may or may not be familiar with operating especially if a reload is used. Try giving someone say an M1Garand who has never shot one have him load it and see what happens lol. If a gun is going to be used it MUST be reliable for everyone. The stage with the coach gun used that broke down and was hard to cock the hammer wasn't up to the challenge of that kind of use.

[rvb]

love em for a side match, hate them for score. invariably some people will be familiar with the stage gun, some will not. so in no way is it a fair challenge. I can live with them for local matches, but if I'm paying $ for a big match and hotels, etc, I expect to compete with the equipment I practiced with... and if the gun jams, I EXPECT a reshoot. it's a prop failure, IMO.

Best use I've seen was at the END of a stage, time stopped on the last shot of YOUR gun, and the rest of the stage with the prop was for fun.

-rvb

[35WLN]

I like the idea of a prop gun to start, off the clock, although I am not sure how the timer would be started. I think that it would give the shooter some stress. I have been to Ironman the last 2 years and without a doubt the blind stages were my favorite even though my times were not that great. I also got to shoot a 360 bay blind COF's with rifle and then pistol that made the match for me.

[D.Hayden]

The 2009 Ironman had 3 prop guns on a blind stage (Pirate Stage).. it was great. One of the most memorable stages I've ever shot.

Of course, there, the stages are big/long enough that a little extra time with an unfamiliar gun doesn't kill you.

[MarkCO]

I like them as long as they meet these few simple requirements:

1. Not a common gun that a normal person could be using at the match.

2. Only used at the start of the stage and any malfunction gets a reshoot.

3. Tested for sights and reliability.

4. Misses can be picked up with your own guns.

5. The shots are doable for the 50% shooter.

6. No penalty targets around the targets to be engaged with the pick up gun.

7. The recoil and or size is not unreasonable for juniors.

8. Whether you hit or miss and pick up the target, the time with a prop gun should be less than 10% of the total.

They represent a skill to be tested. One of the draws of three gun is more challenges with more guns and this meets that goal. Sight alignment and trigger control for any decent shooter on a properly set-up prop gun will yeild accurate results.

The cave at BR was cool, but the prop guns at the end were terrible. I have also seen some rifles shift POI when they got heated up so the first 1 or 2 shooters had an advantage, or disadvantge as a result. If these variables can not be reduced to negligible with a given prop gun on a given stage, then they should not be used.

Edited September 15, 2010 by MarkCO

[Big Bore]

I don't mind prop guns at all. But, bringing something that most peple have not fired and are not familer with can lead to trouble.

Make sure the RO's explain what to look for and how to handle it.

Most are not a problem but if you run across something, for example, that has a real short barrel and you are a large individual who likes to run his off side hand way out on your full sized rifle it could lead to a trip to the ER and the end of your really good run at that match.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Big Bore

[kellyn]

Don't mind them if they are 1 shot at an unscored target. Hate them with the fire of 1000 suns if you are shooting them at a scored target or if at more than 1 target (and they have a chance to malfunction because they almost always do).

[bigbrowndog]

my favorite part of the prop gun credo is, "when you're done set it down gently"...... Yeah!! sure thing. If you don't want your prop gun treated like a secondhand throw down, then don't have it used in a match.

trapr

[spd522]

my favorite part of the prop gun credo is, "when you're done set it down gently"...... Yeah!! sure thing. If you don't want your prop gun treated like a secondhand throw down, then don't have it used in a match.

trapr

Exactly! They expect us to toss our high dollar guns in an old barrel or in a wooden box but

we have to baby their gun? If it's too valuable or fragile to be treated like the rest of the

guns in the match, it doesn't belong there.

Craig

[ArmdCtzn]

LOL, you guys are dead-on about prop guns getting abused.

I designed a stage once where you were helping a downed police officer. At the end I had my

nice Colt revolver that the shooter picked up to make a very easy shot on a full-size popper.

I had a piece of cardboard on the ground where they were to lay the pistol when finished, and

just before dragging the officer back to cover. That gun got tossed everywhere! Usually completely

missing the cardboard and landing in the gravel.

Still, I like prop guns for one or two shots on pretty much "gimme" type targets that everyone should hit.

In my above stage, even with a full-sized popper only ten yards away, I did have one good shooter miss it.

He was mad, but too bad. A good shooter should be able to pick up a revolver and hit a popper.

A good prop gun has to be reliable and accurate, the shots should be kept to a minimum and fairly easy,

and the gun itself should come from somebody besides me! Its fun to add an unusual gun to a stage, revolver,

subgun, belt-fed, etc.

I love the idea of blind stages, but I don't have enough help to really do one. Plus, I wouldn't be able to

shoot the stage myself, forget that!

[AFH]

The "put it down gently" section of stage descriptions have nothing to do with the relative value of your gun verses the value of the prop gun. If you want to toss your gun down on the gravel or other surface, that's fine. Most prop guns will stand up to the same abuse. However, if throwing down your gun knocks the scope zero off, you are only hurting yourself; if throwing down the prop gun knocks its scope off zero, you have hurt the chances of all competitors following you on the stage. This could even be an intentional act. I suspect you will continue to see such language in stage descriptions along with penalties for failing to follow stage procedures.

Andy

Edited September 16, 2010 by AFH

[TonyH]

Not A fan of the prop guns either for most of the reasons stated here. Always seem to work best at the begining & fade towards the end of the match, even if there are back ups, problems seem to happen. Reshoots don't always happen if a prop gun fails at some matches, which is not right.

Blind stages are only blind to the first squad. Yeah, yeah I know that everyone is not going to talk about it afterwards, right. I know some will say that's what hurts everyone elses chances on a blind stage, but secrets never stay secret, people talk & then word travels to everyone.

Tony

[KentG]

Shot a area club match and used a 410 pump preloaded with 3 shells to hit to clays from seated at start of stage. I was OK with it. I did see a couple guys have a issue and I think that everyone should have a chance to see how a prop guns functions before the stage.

As long as its not something thats difficult to pick up and use ie a HK squeezcocker I am ambivialnt.

[Alanlib]

I like em. Ft. Benning, I've gotten to shoot a full auto AK, Bushmaster ACR w/can on auto, M203 grenade launcher. It's all about fun. Have fun!

Gernade launcher? Dude sign me up!

I lkie fun...+1 here

ALan...

[Sterling White]

Mark said

No alternative or reshoots were offered.

Bummers

At the 2009 Ironman - on the CQB portion of the blind stage we were given an alternative! During the walk thru the CRO for the stage said several times to ground the prop gun if it failed and go to our backup which was the pistol.

At the 2010 Multigun Nats Surefire provided a M60 M240 (corrected below)... an awesome piece of equipment which worked each time! Would have liked to have had a belt of 50 rds instead of the 10.

I like prop guns at big matches however in small doses because there are many weapon systems I've only got to see on shelves and not actually played with.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Sterling White

[MarkCO]

I like prop guns at big matches however in small doses because there are many weapon systems I've only got to see on shelves and not actually played with.

Sounds like you need to buy some new guns for training, just in case!

[Blockhead]

Carl & I were a little nervous about the Supressed M240 at Nationals 'cause we didn't have a backup gun in case it went down. It only hung up on us once. The cool thing was that between Barry Dueck, Team FN and SFC Hampton they got it back up and running in no time!

That said, the only way for a match to afford something like that is through the generous support of sponsors like Surefire.

[Sterling White]

Mark said

Sounds like you need to buy some new guns for training, just in case!

Copy that! There is a price associated with prop guns especially at a match. AMMO AMMO AMMO! Who will supply ammo to feed the beast. I can only imagine the difficulty in finding a donor. If there is no donor then is the cost of the ammo wrapped up in the cost of the match fee? In some instances, ie., the prop gun being a shotgun, the shooter may provide the rounds but in the case of a full auto system the owner of the weapon will most likely specify the type.

[MarkCO]

Mark said

Sounds like you need to buy some new guns for training, just in case!

Copy that! There is a price associated with prop guns especially at a match. AMMO AMMO AMMO! Who will supply ammo to feed the beast. I can only imagine the difficulty in finding a donor. If there is no donor then is the cost of the ammo wrapped up in the cost of the match fee? In some instances, ie., the prop gun being a shotgun, the shooter may provide the rounds but in the case of a full auto system the owner of the weapon will most likely specify the type.

At least at RM3G, the ammo is usually donated by the stage sponsor whose gun is used. Remember at Blue Ridge, we had to use our own 5.56 ammo in the full auto Sabre.