"Classic" or "Vintage" division ?

[StealthyBlagga]

If a new division was created specifically for vintage military arms, do you think people would enter ? Would YOU enter ? The details are not fully formed yet; it could range from a simple Garand-specific prize (i.e. like Heavy Metal Iron but with a Garand rifle), all the way up to a full "Classic" division prize table open to any weapon set designed before the end of WW2 (e.g. Johnson rifle + Browning HiPower + Winchester Model 12). Are folks interested in running the old guns in a major 3-gun match ?

Edited September 6, 2010 by StealthyBlagga

[Charles Bond]

I am rather sure there is some demand for this. I am less sure that there is demand enough to support anything more than a couple of larger matches.

We have groups of WW2 enactors. Some of them like to shoot. Some of them like to dress up and act. Some of them like to do both.

The better examples of these weapons are rather expensive and only a few would likely pony up the money to buy them. Finding good parts (junk is always available) would not be easy.

Many of the devotees to the M1 Garrand and other vintage weapons are more of the traditional one position shooters than run and gun shooters.

IMO the concept of using stage guns like the garrand or model 12 in an existing match might generate a lot of interest and it would be my suggestion to do that to guage response.

[ken hebert]

We've got a few shooters, like 4 out of 35, who participate in that class in my area, local match. At this match range is limited to 100yd rifle. Still the bulk is in T.O.

didn't vote, but honestly I think we have enough classes already. Local matches are one thing, where there is a friendly group who looks to compete/have fun amongst themselves, but as far as an official division... Nah.

[uno5885]

The more people that we can get out shooting our sport the better. Its all about fun so if that what it takes to get more people out I'm all for it.

[Jadeslade]

I'm in if I can use my grease gun.

[s_gorilla45]

I'd run out and buy a Mosin just to have fun with it. Maybe run it on a local level as a second entry or as a fun run type of stage.

[StealthyBlagga]

Thanks for the feedback so far. The gist of my question is this: If you were going to attend a major match (such as SMM3G, RM3G etc.) would you enter such a vintage division, or would you bypass the old war horse and pull the AR15 out of the gunsafe ?

[RiggerJJ]

When we've got over 100 competitors in HeMan, then we can entertain the idea...

jj

[bigbrowndog]

given that stages are built to accomodate hi capacity guns, it would cause stages to run longer than anticipated, this is not good for match/stage efficiency.

We do not NEED more divisions, we NEED fewer!!

thats all I'm saying on this topic!! the potential for this topic to get argumentive appears HIGH!!

Trapr

[J-Ho]

i think it would make a very cool side match or a small match by itself. I for one would much rather shoot a modern gun if there is a choice. But a match of all vintage stuff or a side match while waiting on scores, I'd go in for that.

[GorillaTactical]

At almost every match I can think of which I have shot, I've seen at least 1 or 2 guys shooting their C&R rifles. I know whenever my buddy takes out his Mosin he always jokes about running through a 3 gun stage with it. I think it would be awesome to encourage more people to shoot matches with these weapons, but idk if just making a new division would promote it enough. We barely have enough limited shooters as it is at the major matches from what I understand (I'm speaking from limited exposure of these national matches).

[jar]

I don't think we need more divisions. It would be a fun local match or side match though. One of my IDPA clubs recently ran a small BUG match for regular match staff and had a rifle fun stage with a Garand. I was sad to miss it, the videos looked like fun.

[ac4wordplay]

Once a year, our monthly practical rifle match changes to a "classic battle rifle" (CBR) match with 2 divisions ("manually operated", and "semi-auto"). It's well received, but not popular enough to run a separate CBR category at every match. Because of the ammo (often surplus, often with steel core) only our "beater"/damaged steel targets are used (and paper targets); wouldn't want to use good steel targets at such a match.

Best,

ac

Edited September 7, 2010 by ac4wordplay

[dillon]

A few of us at Dillon are entertaining bringing M-1 Garands to next years RM3G anyway. The stages do require a semi-automatic rifle, but as well as I shoot, a Garand is not less competitive-for me anyway. I doubt there is enough interest for a separate category, but it fits fine into Heavy Metal- M-1 Garand, 1911A1, and either a Win 97 or Model 12. just for fun!

[kellyn]

I actually object to this ESPECIALLY if it will involve major matches. 3 gun stages are designed largely designed around the tac scope division, meaning a low recoil flat shooting rifle with an optic and 30 or even 40 rd magazines, a low recoil pistol with 20+ rd magazines, and a shotgun with interchangeable chokes, decent sights and 8+ capacity.

Even with all that, many shooters struggle as the stage design at major matches has really become challenging. Now throw in a cadre of guys (gals would be too smart to shoot vintage division) shooting garands, enfields, Lugers, stock 1911s and open choked trench brooms. Stages will drag and everyone will max out at the par times OR we will have to dumb down stages to allow the vintage guys to even finish.

I am certainly not against people shooting vintage stuff or even having vintage matches (I'm sure it would be fun) but lets not add this to our current crop of MAJOR matches.

[P.E. Kelley]

When we've got over 100 competitors in HeMan, then we can entertain the idea...

jj

given that stages are built to accomodate hi capacity guns, it would cause stages to run longer than anticipated, this is not good for match/stage efficiency.

We do not NEED more divisions, we NEED fewer!!

thats all I'm saying on this topic!! the potential for this topic to get argumentive appears HIGH!!

Trapr

I actually object to this ESPECIALLY if it will involve major matches. 3 gun stages are designed largely designed around the tac scope division, meaning a low recoil flat shooting rifle with an optic and 30 or even 40 rd magazines, a low recoil pistol with 20+ rd magazines, and a shotgun with interchangeable chokes, decent sights and 8+ capacity.

Even with all that, many shooters struggle as the stage design at major matches has really become challenging. Now throw in a cadre of guys (gals would be too smart to shoot vintage division) shooting garands, enfields, Lugers, stock 1911s and open choked trench brooms. Stages will drag and everyone will max out at the par times OR we will have to dumb down stages to allow the vintage guys to even finish.

I am certainly not against people shooting vintage stuff or even having vintage matches (I'm sure it would be fun) but lets not add this to our current crop of MAJOR matches.

PLEASE listen to these fellows!!!! They shoot the Heavy Division/s

I like to goof around with odd gear AT LOCAL MATCHES but let us not turn the Heavy division/s into some kind of "side show freak" division.

Stealthy....please don't let Dan do this.....

Respectfully

Patrick

[SinistralRifleman]

Two problems I see are:

1) most people simply don't own WW2 design or earlier shotguns, while they may own a 1911 and a Garand. Limiting it to any pump action really wouldn't be fair as both lawmen (Charles Askins) and criminals (Dillinger gang) used Browning Auto 5s and Remington Model 11s. I recall Charles Askins used a Model 11 with a 10 shot extended tube.

2) For match efficiency round count would need to be cut in half

I think a rifle/pistol WW2 themed stand alone match would be easier to run than including shotgun. Also with stages designed specifically for WW2 guns it would be much easier match efficiency wise.

[No.343]

Wouldn't this fall under the same era as the "soot suit" matches I saw on TV. I have no idea if I'm spelling that right. I know the footage showed them shooting tommy guns and 1911s. Maybe your guys should do lunch with their guys and see what happens.

[SinistralRifleman]

Wouldn't this fall under the same era as the "soot suit" matches I saw on TV. I have no idea if I'm spelling that right. I know the footage showed them shooting tommy guns and 1911s. Maybe your guys should do lunch with their guys and see what happens.

http://www.zootshooters.com/

[Alaskapopo]

I love shooting and have always thought it would be neat to have a three gun match with WWII or WWI era weapons. But I admit it would be hard to get enough participation to justify it. I just like shooting lots of different types of guns.

Pat

[HRider]

When we've got over 100 competitors in HeMan, then we can entertain the idea...

jj

given that stages are built to accomodate hi capacity guns, it would cause stages to run longer than anticipated, this is not good for match/stage efficiency.

We do not NEED more divisions, we NEED fewer!!

thats all I'm saying on this topic!! the potential for this topic to get argumentive appears HIGH!!

Trapr

I actually object to this ESPECIALLY if it will involve major matches. 3 gun stages are designed largely designed around the tac scope division, meaning a low recoil flat shooting rifle with an optic and 30 or even 40 rd magazines, a low recoil pistol with 20+ rd magazines, and a shotgun with interchangeable chokes, decent sights and 8+ capacity.

Even with all that, many shooters struggle as the stage design at major matches has really become challenging. Now throw in a cadre of guys (gals would be too smart to shoot vintage division) shooting garands, enfields, Lugers, stock 1911s and open choked trench brooms. Stages will drag and everyone will max out at the par times OR we will have to dumb down stages to allow the vintage guys to even finish.

I am certainly not against people shooting vintage stuff or even having vintage matches (I'm sure it would be fun) but lets not add this to our current crop of MAJOR matches.

PLEASE listen to these fellows!!!! They shoot the Heavy Division/s

I like to goof around with odd gear AT LOCAL MATCHES but let us not turn the Heavy division/s into some kind of "side show freak" division.

Stealthy....please don't let Dan do this.....

Respectfully

Patrick

I have to agree with these folks. A side match or local/vintage match would be fun, but it would stall a major match and have squads backed up.

Hurley

[ShootfastRunfaster]

Thanks for the feedback so far. The gist of my question is this: If you were going to attend a major match (such as SMM3G, RM3G etc.) would you enter such a vintage division, or would you bypass the old war horse and pull the AR15 out of the gunsafe ?

I would not add a vintage division to the current lineup at the big matches. It would make them run too long.

I love the idea of having the division, it would give me and excuse to buy a proper scattergun to go with my '03 and 1911. I would like to see it as a match on its own.