Is it INDIAN (not the arrow) always really true!?

[Ramas]

Recently I saw this old saying in other forum against Eric Grauffel ant I have a few my thoughts on this issue:

1. What if someone could shoot a few millions rounds in a few years? What his skills will be?

2. What if someone will get an unlimited round count in practice and to get payed to shoot? How strong he will be?

3. If someone will have an opportunity to shoot about 30000 rounds before the major match i one month, how he would end in overall results?

I know, I will get many answers like, you can do a lot of dry fire and etc., but if you are shooting you may know it is one of the biggest issue in our sport - recoil management, actually I think it is one of the main and the greatest fundamental skill.

Look at our heroes like Sevigny, Grauffel, TGO ,Michel, T.J., B. Enos, T.T. and others, how many live rounds they send downrange? It is not 4000-7000 in the season to be on the top actually, I think.

So is it always depends on the INDIAN really? What if you will give unlimited live rounds to the INDIAN, how good he will end?

P.S. I know for real it is not the ARROW!

P.S.S. maybe someone will be willing to do an experiment and wants to give 50000-70000 rounds to me to see if it will work?

Want to hear your thoughts...

[J-Ho]

I think any one of us could be great shooters if we were paid to shoot and given ammo. Could just anybody be THE best? I don't think so. I doubt these pro shooters just got offered contracts out of the blue. My bet is they spent a lot of time and a lot of money first. Just like any business, the firearms industry folks aren't going to hand out guns and ammo unless they think it is worth it. They are going to go with people who have first proven that they have the skills, determination and drive to be the best.

[CocoBolo]

Just shooting isn't going to do a lot for your game. You need to practice the correct technique, no matter how hard you practice bad technique you won't get good results. Also while it is a shooting game the actual shooting is just part of the game, shooting a million rounds won't make a super senior run like a junior.

Beyond the physical limitation there are mental limitations, you can only go as fast as your brain and eyes can process what is seen so that said there are lots of reasons there are not more 6 way GM's.

My take is its 95% indian and 5% arrow.

[Flexmoney]

So...practice is good? Now you tell me...

LOL

I'm not sure how related this is to Indiana/Arrow? Sounds more like "pick one and practice".

[simmons]

It is also possible that there are people out there that are gifted at certain things.Not going to argue the fact that practice plays a huge role.Was Stevie Ray Vaughan just plain old better at playing guitar or considered a gifted guitarist?If i was given all the free ammo i wanted i still dont think i'm going to beat Eric G .Period.

Not trying to limit myself here,just trying to be realistic.

[Flexmoney]

I hear that from people all the time.

I'll say this...most anybody that is physically able (or has the ability to become physically able) can make it to the high Master/Grand Master level, at least.

I even did so with a minimum of that practice stuff. In my case, I like to figure things out in my head, then apply them in practice.

Contrast that with my good buddy Steve Anderson (multi-GM)...who would figure things out through the process of practice.

Two different paths.

I certainly don't consider myself gifted in any special way. What I do like to do is break thing down and figure out their underlying fundamentals. I like to figure out why things work (or don't) the way they do. I have found that just about every endeavor in life can be boiled down to some sort of fundamentals.

[blaster113]

Echoing other posts, live fire is only a part of the equation. Having an unlimited amount of ammo for practice will not automatically advance one in this sport, if that live fire practice is not done correctly and with a purpose. I know for sure that even if I had access to unlimited practice ammo I still wouldn't have a chance against any GM's

[Chris iliff]

If I didn't work and was rich and just shot everyday, NO ONE WOULD BEAT ME! I ain't selling myself short for no one. I'd have a big RV and hit every Major I could, especially the SS Nationals. Where, I might add, I would beat TGO and go down in history as the second person to ever win the match.

If I could start that tomorrow, I figure, let's see I'm 43, so I would be about 63 and TGO would be in his late 60's I think. YMMV, but that's what I would do!

No Indian, no arrow. It's one indian and lots of perfect arrows.

[Maks_H]

Recently I saw this old saying in other forum against Eric Grauffel ant I have a few my thoughts on this issue:

Want to hear your thoughts...

I think they meant that is not the gun but the shooter, because Eric shot production and beat the competition. And you are asking about rounds spent. They meant that whichever gun you put in Eric's hand he will win. Maybe you get confused because it a arrow in old saying where should be a bow instead. Sure is ammo count on range related, because this has to do with how much had someone practiced. As many others I believe that most part of success is the shooter but I wouldn't completely exclude a gun. If the gun is not a factor than the best shooters wouldn't have guns tuned to their preferences. I just believe that if the shooter is comfortable with the gun he can concentrate more on shooting skills and perform better. Edited July 5, 2010 by Maks_H

[Jman]

It isn't money. It sure ain't round count. The common denominator with (insert your sport here) champions is the willingness to work. Long LONG hours. Endlessly on the details. Way beyond what 99.9% of the rest can or will do. What makes them champions, the ones that do this for a living, is not freebies. It's a$$ busting work.

[John Heiter]

In my thinking, you can be really good at something if you work hard enough... This includes getting in and keeping yourself in the right physical shape, practicing hour after hour, etc. That said, I still don't think you're going to be the best unless you also have "the gift". Some people just have more aptitude at things than others.

If you're talking about being really good then it's the indian and not the arrow. If you're talking about being the absolute best then it's probably the indian AND the arrow AND the JuJu.

Take it or leave it, that's about as politically incorrect as I feel like being for one night.

[bbbean]

Shooting isn't any different from anything else. It takes a combination of skill, determination, practice, business sense, connections, personality, looks, and luck. No one or two of these will be enough, but a handful of people manage to have all of these in abundance, and take advantage of the opportunities available to them. No big secret.

The best indian with the best arrow won't necessarily win. The 2nd best with the 2nd best who also had the personality and business skills to score a major sponsor and get to shoot full time will outshoot him 9 times out of 10. He'll also make a career out of the deal.

[Chris iliff]

I think it does have to do with round count. Lots of perfect rounds. Not just shooting rounds downrange, but shooting every round and learning something from it. Which, as stated above is going to be HARD WORK! Yes I dryfire and yes it will help you tremendously. But, nothing is going to help as much as live rounds fired perfectly. I haven't heard of one national USPSA champ that got there without tons of rounds fired perfectly. I'm not talking about the average GM, I'm talking about the elite ones. The GM's that are vying for a title, that threaten other GM's.

For me my real improvement came when I went broke on my limited $$ and shot the piss out of my gun trying to learn something. Yes I was doing the dryfire, yes it works to a point, but I think the elite got there by shooting a lot.

Spending all my spare money on components and shooting a lot took me from C to A. Trying to figure the money I'd need to get to GM left me depressed. There are ways around the money, and now I shoot a race .22 to save tons of moolah. YMMV, this is my .02cents.

[benos]

I have found that just about every endeavor in life can be boiled down to some sort of fundamentals.

Nice!

Eventually, after maybe some years of training... Just knowing when and where to put your attention will do everything as could as you can do it.

be

[Flyin40]

Recently I saw this old saying in other forum against Eric Grauffel ant I have a few my thoughts on this issue:

1. What if someone could shoot a few millions rounds in a few years? What his skills will be?

2. What if someone will get an unlimited round count in practice and to get payed to shoot? How strong he will be?

3. If someone will have an opportunity to shoot about 30000 rounds before the major match i one month, how he would end in overall results?

I know, I will get many answers like, you can do a lot of dry fire and etc., but if you are shooting you may know it is one of the biggest issue in our sport - recoil management, actually I think it is one of the main and the greatest fundamental skill.

Look at our heroes like Sevigny, Grauffel, TGO ,Michel, T.J., B. Enos, T.T. and others, how many live rounds they send downrange? It is not 4000-7000 in the season to be on the top actually, I think.

So is it always depends on the INDIAN really? What if you will give unlimited live rounds to the INDIAN, how good he will end?

P.S. I know for real it is not the ARROW!

P.S.S. maybe someone will be willing to do an experiment and wants to give 50000-70000 rounds to me to see if it will work?

Want to hear your thoughts...

3. has been done. Chris Tilley before his Open nationals win. He shot 1000 rounds a day for 30 days prior to the match if I remember right. He said shooting or practicing 1000 rds a day wasn't bad but reloading 1000 a day for a month was rough on this elbow.

For me its always the Indian. I haven't read what was posted but about Eric but I would also guess they meant no matter what gun you put in his hand he is going to do well.

Flyin

[GForceLizard]

It isn't money. It sure ain't round count. The common denominator with (insert your sport here) champions is the willingness to work. Long LONG hours. Endlessly on the details. Way beyond what 99.9% of the rest can or will do. What makes them champions, the ones that do this for a living, is not freebies. It's a$$ busting work.

Totally, and successful people are the ones that do not quit. When faced with failure they try again until they succeed.

[ong45]

This is sooooo boring.............. dry fire yada yada yada , perfect practice yada yada yada

How about this ? No one is going to beat Tgo ,Max or Travis without shooting a pissload of bullets downrange.

No need to bring up the good intelligent practice vs. idiotic hosing ok? That's a given.

Some food for thought....

When a top shooter tells you they regret shooting till they were knee deep in brass and could have done better knowing what they know now, does it not sound a bit like second guessing yourself ? What you did in the past made you what you are.

Besides if practicing more was all there was to it, how could anyone sell you classes eh ?

Going to make popcorn now.

[CHA-LEE]

If there was a universal secret formula (X Quantity of Bullets + X Hours of practice = Super Ultra Shooting skills) then everyone would be a top level GM. The reality is that everyone requires a different path to reach their goals. The really hard reality to accept is that when it comes down to it there are VERY FEW people that are willing to sacrifice what it takes to achieve the absolute maximum of their abilities. I don't know about you guys, but gaining 5% - 10% in my shooting skills isn't worth quitting my day job and shooting/training 8 hours a day. The other thing to consider is that every skill is perishable. If you are able to shoot 30,000 rounds in a month what you learned or honed during that time will start to degrade once you stop shooting at that level of ammo consumption.

Step back and really think about it. We all could buckle down and shoot 30,000 rounds a month in an effort to improve our skills. Would I want to do that at the risk of burning myself out on it and making shooting no fun any more? Hell No!!!

Edited July 8, 2010 by CHA-LEE

[kevin c]

The late magician Doug Henning replied, when somebody commented on his remarkable sleight of hand skills that he'd give a million dollars to be able to do what he did, "The price for what I can do is not a million dollars, the price is eight hours of practice a day, seven days a week, for ten years. Then, maybe, you'll be able to do what I do."

Ten thousand hours, not of any practice but good, applied practice, is a number that some propose for mastery of any advanced skill.

There just might be something to that...

Edited July 8, 2010 by kevin c

[ong45]

I hear ya cha-lee, everyone has to prioritize their life. And you are right , few people are willing to sacrifice what it takes to get to the top. It's not too hard to figure out who was willing to sacrifice a lot to get to the top...... well the top is where you'll find them.

I was told that Eric G practiced in the Phillipines for a month straight before the last WS . The same guy who told me the story said he got sick watching the volume of practice EG did. Multiple world championships and he feels the need to work that much.

I leave you with a passage from Ben Stoeger...

The bottom line is this: Shooting is everything to me. It is my entire life. I hang my self worth on shooting. When I have a bad practice where I just can’t shoot well, I go home feeling like crap. When I have a good day on the range, I feel great.

[CHA-LEE]

The thing that kills me about this topic is that its so far out of perspective for the average competition shooters real life reality that its almost comical. Sure you can practice 8 hours a day and blow through tens of thousands of rounds a month in an effort to become the best of the best. But when you weigh the pro’s and con’s of what this sport is about and what you get out of it into perspective to every day reality, its simply not worth it. At least not for me, as I use competitive shooting as a past time hobby. Is shooting a firearm effectively a worth while skill to have? Yes. Is shooting in competitive matches entertaining and fun? Yes. Is putting everything else in your life on hold a viable proposition in order to become the best of the best at this sport? I would say that it isn’t unless you are independently wealthy and have nothing better to do with your time other than count your millions and 100% dedicate yourself to something which cost is not a factor.

In the end its up to you to decide what level of dedication and sacrifice you are willing to commit in order to get better. Just like anything else, if you commit 100% of your efforts to anything it would be pretty damn hard to NOT be really good at it.

To answer the original question of whether it’s the “Indian” or the “Arrow”, I would say that its always going to be the Indian. If the Indian isn’t motivated or driven to get better then it does not matter how many Arrows he has at his disposal. If the Indian is motivated and driven then just one arrow will be enough because he will retrieve that arrow after each shot and do it as many times as it takes to reach his goal.

I think a more important question to ask yourself is to what level of involvement are you willing to commit to while still retaining the fundamentals of why you started doing it in the first place. For me, shooting USPSA matches is all about having fun, being challenged and socializing with friends. I want to keep it that way so I meter my level of dedication to keep my involvement retained within that comfort zone. If I perform this balancing act well shooting can and will be a very rewarding and long term hobby for me. Or I could take it over the top, practice every day, burn out and cringe every time I look at my reloading press and or gun then eventually throw my hands up and quit when it dawns on me that all of the effort isn’t worth it in the long run. I will take option number 1 any day over option number 2. I may never be the best of the best at this sport but I can guarantee that I will at least give them a run for their money and enjoy every minute while doing so regardless of where I finish.

[CocoBolo]

The thing that kills me about this topic is that its so far out of perspective for the average competition shooters real life reality that its almost comical. Sure you can practice 8 hours a day and blow through tens of thousands of rounds a month in an effort to become the best of the best. But when you weigh the pro's and con's of what this sport is about and what you get out of it into perspective to every day reality, its simply not worth it. At least not for me, as I use competitive shooting as a past time hobby. Is shooting a firearm effectively a worth while skill to have? Yes. Is shooting in competitive matches entertaining and fun? Yes. Is putting everything else in your life on hold a viable proposition in order to become the best of the best at this sport? I would say that it isn't unless you are independently wealthy and have nothing better to do with your time other than count your millions and 100% dedicate yourself to something which cost is not a factor.

In the end its up to you to decide what level of dedication and sacrifice you are willing to commit in order to get better. Just like anything else, if you commit 100% of your efforts to anything it would be pretty damn hard to NOT be really good at it.

To answer the original question of whether it's the "Indian" or the "Arrow", I would say that its always going to be the Indian. If the Indian isn't motivated or driven to get better then it does not matter how many Arrows he has at his disposal. If the Indian is motivated and driven then just one arrow will be enough because he will retrieve that arrow after each shot and do it as many times as it takes to reach his goal.

I think a more important question to ask yourself is to what level of involvement are you willing to commit to while still retaining the fundamentals of why you started doing it in the first place. For me, shooting USPSA matches is all about having fun, being challenged and socializing with friends. I want to keep it that way so I meter my level of dedication to keep my involvement retained within that comfort zone. If I perform this balancing act well shooting can and will be a very rewarding and long term hobby for me. Or I could take it over the top, practice every day, burn out and cringe every time I look at my reloading press and or gun then eventually throw my hands up and quit when it dawns on me that all of the effort isn't worth it in the long run. I will take option number 1 any day over option number 2. I may never be the best of the best at this sport but I can guarantee that I will at least give them a run for their money and enjoy every minute while doing so regardless of where I finish.

Amen brother. I have to take time off for my day job, and mow the grass when it gets 3 ft tall. Is it the gun, no, I can hand mine to my friend a GM and he can shoot a stage in half the time it takes me and have better hits. Looking at the 3 local GM's I shoot with its obvious it is my height holding me back they are all shorter than me.

[Flexmoney]

In the end its up to you to decide what level of dedication and sacrifice you are willing to commit in order to get better. Just like anything else, if you commit 100% of your efforts to anything it would be pretty damn hard to NOT be really good at it.

This is good.

I would say that it isn't unless you are independently wealthy and have nothing better to do with your time other than count your millions and 100% dedicate yourself to something which cost is not a factor.

Umm...not so much.

[gerritm]

Talent. I believe there are certain people that are born with it and are lucky enough to find out what they are good at and have the opportunity to excel at it. I can never be Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods or Dale Earnhardt, no matter how much money I have and how much practice I do. Can I be proficient in any sport with time, hard work, practice, and money, of course. Certain people are born with the ability to excel. Physical limitations in any sport set the parameters of success in that sport. Reactions, eyesight, hand eye coordination are paramount in any sport, but especially the shooting sports. I believe it is the Indian not the arrow.

[rvb]

Talent. I believe there are certain people that are born with it and are lucky enough to find out what they are good at and have the opportunity to excel at it. I can never be Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods or Dale Earnhardt.

I've always thought the guys you mentioned would be terribly insulted to hear it's all some devinely inspired "talent," considering they all began WORKING at their respective games at an age most of us had just learned to tie our shoes...

I'm just a mediocre master-class shooter, but I've had non-competitors toss the "lucky to be so talented" crap at me. um... no... most of a decade and a decent pile of ammo got me just this mediocre. If I wanted to be less mediocre, I would dedicate more time and work harder at it, it just happens shooting is about 5th on my priorities list. So I'm ok with letting those willing to sacrafice more and work harder pass me by as I keep marching along, improving at my pace. But those folks who I see clawing their way to the top, I don't assume it's talent, I assume it's sweat.

What amazes me about guys like you mention are that they stuck with it from diapers through championships. That's determination.

-rvb