The Fallacy of leveling the playing field

[Jesse Tischauser]

lET ALONE 5??

Jess"y" I am going by Powder Valley on the way home, If you need anything put it on willcall and I will bring it down, saving the hazmat charge! KurtM

I need a bunch of stuff but Im not sure what it is yet. Give me a shout before you leave please.

[Mike P]

I think Mohammed Traper needs to be the president of the O3GC, Outlaw 3 Gun Confederation.

This sport is growing. The 3 gun nation TV show is only going to make it bigger and better! We need a sanctioning body of 3 Gun to help promote, support, & grow this sport.

Mohammed Trapr for President!!!

The only leveling of the playing field we need is to have enough hoser shooting to get new shooters to the major matches so that sponsors keep supporting the matches.

I would love to see a three gun organization as well. Not simply a three gun variation of a pistol sport.

Pat

What is the benefit to the average shooter, or sponsor for that matter of having an umbrella organization for 3 gun?

I was heavily inebriated when I posted that yesterday. It is a topic for discussion in another thread for sure. so I will just say that I think there could be a lot of benefits and leave it at that. The President, Trapr would come up with all kinds of good stuff for us to benefit from.

Well since there is no real organization in place maybe we could just make BBD the 3-gun Czar, there's one for everything else, eh?

[1chota]

I think Mohammed Traper needs to be the president of the O3GC, Outlaw 3 Gun Confederation.

This sport is growing. The 3 gun nation TV show is only going to make it bigger and better! We need a sanctioning body of 3 Gun to help promote, support, & grow this sport.

Mohammed Trapr for President!!!

The only leveling of the playing field we need is to have enough hoser shooting to get new shooters to the major matches so that sponsors keep supporting the matches.

i really wish you would quit referring to him as "mohammed". i find it offensive and i believe he commented on that also. thanx.

[Jesse Tischauser]

i really wish you would quit referring to him as "mohammed". i find it offensive and i believe he commented on that also. thanx.

I am truely sorry I offended anyone. For the record I was joking with Trapr about his 3 gun prophecies such as this thread that we all enjoy. I meant no disrespect to Trapr or anyone else. I sometimes forget that things that sound funny in my little head don't always read funny to someone else on a forum.

I'd explain my attempt at humor but explaining a joke never ever makes it funny now does it.

[bigbrowndog]

if you were truely sorry, you'd offer to buy the first round???

Wynn, his wife doesn't let him out much and this is his only outlet for him to speak without her consent. so sometimes he goes overboard, when he gets out more we'll introduce him to Ty and Ben and sit back and listen for the high pitched whine as the spooling up takes place

Trapr

[LChico]

we'll introduce him to Ty and Ben and sit back and listen for the high pitched whine as the spooling up takes place

Trapr

Or the harsh grinding of rusty gears?

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[HRider]

So if you want seeable and hittable targets come on down to the MS 3-gun Challenge and see what Trapr has set up for you to see and hit !!!!!!

It is simple and easy to set up challenging stages. Challenge a skill set. not the ability to find a target out of the maze of trees ect. Or hit that 3 inch rectagular target at 45 yds with buckshot, or hit that 6 inch plate at 375 yds with your m1a and Iron sights -------oh did i mention it wasn't painted either ????

Come to Mississippi in October, you'll be able to see your targets, hitting them is your challenge, but they will not be HARD to hit.

THE GOOD SHOOTERS WILL ALWAYS BE ON TOP. They do easy things really good, and hard things good. DON'T WORRY ABOUT THEM. Make your stages fun and doable to the c class shooters (IN USPSA) and you'll have many return shooters the next year.

Last year at the MS 3-gun match I had one stage that you shot rifle across a lake to some MGM flashers (that were donated by MGM btw THanks MIKE and Travis) and I had a 180 second limit on the stage. One squad did not understand that and let the shooters shoot overtime (on the Friday part of the shoot) so when I found that out I talked to the RM (Kurt Miller) and told him that since it was shot that way and others had been penalized for going to the 180 and then stopped it was not a fair stage and would have to toss it out. I did not toss it out until the match was over, and every one got to shoot the stage. I heard many thank yous for letting them shoot the stage even though it did not score as it was so much fun.

Build your stages to challenge the shooter but not penalize them. Make them doable and fun in some kind of way. You will not level the playing field. It is not possible. Unless you have a motor Grader and rakes !!!

HOP

I am with Sam. The only way that I see to level the playing field is to practice, practice, practice. Wayne Seale used to have a quote on the wall in his shop that read something to the effect of "You had better practice, because someone out there is practicing, and if you don't, when you meet he will win. Well, unless he really sucks".

Hurley

[Alaskapopo]

I think Mohammed Traper needs to be the president of the O3GC, Outlaw 3 Gun Confederation.

This sport is growing. The 3 gun nation TV show is only going to make it bigger and better! We need a sanctioning body of 3 Gun to help promote, support, & grow this sport.

Mohammed Trapr for President!!!

The only leveling of the playing field we need is to have enough hoser shooting to get new shooters to the major matches so that sponsors keep supporting the matches.

I would love to see a three gun organization as well. Not simply a three gun variation of a pistol sport.

Pat

What is the benefit to the average shooter, or sponsor for that matter of having an umbrella organization for 3 gun?

I think the rules would be better suited to the game if they were made by people shooting three gun vs a pistol shooters doing it as an after thought.

Pat

[mpeltier]

From what i've experianced at our local club the ones who want to "level the playing field" are also the ones who spit out the word "Gamer" quite often. When i see a stage someone sets up and attempts to level or game proof the stage, i recognize who they are trying to slow down or trip up. Sometimes they even name names. Regardless, they still always seem to win the match. The unfortunate victim of this is the match itself as often times it makes a stage less than fun and my first thought turns to how enjoyable the new shooters are going to find it. Its tough enough to get new shooters to return as it is, but making stages more difficult or less fun (which is often the result) to "Level the playing field" does not bring back those shooters.

The only real way for these shooters to "Level the playing field" is to practice more and show up better prepared.

Edited June 28, 2010 by mpeltier

[1chota]

So if you want seeable and hittable targets come on down to the MS 3-gun Challenge and see what Trapr has set up for you to see and hit !!!!!!

It is simple and easy to set up challenging stages. Challenge a skill set. not the ability to find a target out of the maze of trees ect. Or hit that 3 inch rectagular target at 45 yds with buckshot, or hit that 6 inch plate at 375 yds with your m1a and Iron sights -------oh did i mention it wasn't painted either ????

Come to Mississippi in October, you'll be able to see your targets, hitting them is your challenge, but they will not be HARD to hit.

THE GOOD SHOOTERS WILL ALWAYS BE ON TOP. They do easy things really good, and hard things good. DON'T WORRY ABOUT THEM. Make your stages fun and doable to the c class shooters (IN USPSA) and you'll have many return shooters the next year.

Last year at the MS 3-gun match I had one stage that you shot rifle across a lake to some MGM flashers (that were donated by MGM btw THanks MIKE and Travis) and I had a 180 second limit on the stage. One squad did not understand that and let the shooters shoot overtime (on the Friday part of the shoot) so when I found that out I talked to the RM (Kurt Miller) and told him that since it was shot that way and others had been penalized for going to the 180 and then stopped it was not a fair stage and would have to toss it out. I did not toss it out until the match was over, and every one got to shoot the stage. I heard many thank yous for letting them shoot the stage even though it did not score as it was so much fun.

Build your stages to challenge the shooter but not penalize them. Make them doable and fun in some kind of way. You will not level the playing field. It is not possible. Unless you have a motor Grader and rakes !!!

HOP

I am with Sam. The only way that I see to level the playing field is to practice, practice, practice. Wayne Seale used to have a quote on the wall in his shop that read something to the effect of "You had better practice, because someone out there is practicing, and if you don't, when you meet he will win. Well, unless he really sucks".

Hurley

"PRACTICE!" Now there is a novel idea.

[DMAC]

So if you want seeable and hittable targets come on down to the MS 3-gun Challenge and see what Trapr has set up for you to see and hit !!!!!!

It is simple and easy to set up challenging stages. Challenge a skill set. not the ability to find a target out of the maze of trees ect. Or hit that 3 inch rectagular target at 45 yds with buckshot, or hit that 6 inch plate at 375 yds with your m1a and Iron sights -------oh did i mention it wasn't painted either ????

Come to Mississippi in October, you'll be able to see your targets, hitting them is your challenge, but they will not be HARD to hit.

THE GOOD SHOOTERS WILL ALWAYS BE ON TOP. They do easy things really good, and hard things good. DON'T WORRY ABOUT THEM. Make your stages fun and doable to the c class shooters (IN USPSA) and you'll have many return shooters the next year.

Last year at the MS 3-gun match I had one stage that you shot rifle across a lake to some MGM flashers (that were donated by MGM btw THanks MIKE and Travis) and I had a 180 second limit on the stage. One squad did not understand that and let the shooters shoot overtime (on the Friday part of the shoot) so when I found that out I talked to the RM (Kurt Miller) and told him that since it was shot that way and others had been penalized for going to the 180 and then stopped it was not a fair stage and would have to toss it out. I did not toss it out until the match was over, and every one got to shoot the stage. I heard many thank yous for letting them shoot the stage even though it did not score as it was so much fun.

Build your stages to challenge the shooter but not penalize them. Make them doable and fun in some kind of way. You will not level the playing field. It is not possible. Unless you have a motor Grader and rakes !!!

HOP

I am with Sam. The only way that I see to level the playing field is to practice, practice, practice. Wayne Seale used to have a quote on the wall in his shop that read something to the effect of "You had better practice, because someone out there is practicing, and if you don't, when you meet he will win. Well, unless he really sucks".

Hurley

"PRACTICE!" Now there is a novel idea.

I don't want to "PRACTICE" = Work. And if the new CZAR could throw some stimulus money my way too, that would be great!

[toothandnail]

Why is it so hard for people to understand you can NEVER level the field.

How about making sure every one weighs the same, it's not fair for a 300# 50yr old to compete against a 150# 20 yr old.

What about the short guys shooting through a higher port, or tall through a low one

likewise someone with 20/15 vision VS 20/40

I've got a bad knee and wear a brace, I think everyone else should have to as well

I also don't spend as much $$ as some on equipment that's not fair either.

Maybe I didn't sleep well the night before!!!! there's no end to the grading.

Pretty soon we'll be at the "Everyone gets a trophy" point.

My attitude has always been "Do the best you can with what you have ,if you don't like the outcome , do what it takes to improve your preformance don't try to drag someone else down to your level"

[Mike P]

Well, you could have the 300lb fifty year olds run the range painting targets so the 20/40 and 20/15 eyes could see the targets better, then bingo soon the 300lb folks would be 150lbs and probably with a knee brace, and the 20 year olds will have aged. See, level field and problem solved.

[bigbrowndog]

on the subject of leveling the playing field, there is talk from some sport officials that they want to ban/regulate what ammo you can use or shoot in a match????

in other words for shotgun, they feel that you should not be able to change ammo during a match, if you start with 7.5 shot at 3 dram, Winchester then you cannot swap to Fiocchi spreaders for a particular target array or stage, or go to heavy 6's or 4's for steel, or change out from full power slugs to low recoil slugs for certain targets. Also you should not be able to have and use hoser ammo for your rifle on close range targets and then precision ammo for long range.

All of this is being suggested on the basis that its just not practical, for someone to have that many different types of ammo when they are out in the field, there is also talk of banning certain types of ammo because some areas cannot get it or that its unreasonably expensive or difficult to find. So its unfair that some have it and other do not.

PERSONALLY I SAY,..............B.S. AND ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!!

I know of plenty of hunters that carry different shot sizes while hunting different species, I've done it while hunting, ducks, pheasant and geese, swapping between 4's and tt's, or for grouse and ducks with 6's and 7.5 spreaders. So for anyone to say its impractical simply because they do not do it is ridiculous. As for practical, how practical is it for someone to go walking around all day with one side of their glasses taped or occluded? or how many of use wear our special shooting glasses all day long, or walk around in cleats all day, or wear a 2 piece belt on the outside of our trousers????

there are plenty of things that get done in this sport that are specialized, but are considered "practical"

If items start to be restricted because of regional availability, where does it stop?? I can't buy a Molot in the US!!!! I can't find Fiber wadded shotgun shells in the US!!! Its too hard for me to get a 21"or 24" barreled Benelli in Canada!!!! I can't buy a JP AR in Germany!!!! Seirra matchkings are too expensive and hard to find in Namibia!!! Federal flitecontrol shells are too hard to get in Europe!!........So what!!!! why penalize those that can get it, when there is something available to you that you can substitute.

Trapr

[Bryan 45]

Trapr, do you need a paper bag? Calm down brother!

I personally think they need to limit the amount of time competitors can practice- because I just don't like practicing and it's not fair those that do practice are better than me.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Bryan 45

[bigbrowndog]

I could use a plastic one for some people

Trapr

[TonyH]

Why is it so hard for people to understand you can NEVER level the field.

How about making sure every one weighs the same, it's not fair for a 300# 50yr old to compete against a 150# 20 yr old.

What about the short guys shooting through a higher port, or tall through a low one

likewise someone with 20/15 vision VS 20/40

I've got a bad knee and wear a brace, I think everyone else should have to as well

I also don't spend as much $$ as some on equipment that's not fair either.

Maybe I didn't sleep well the night before!!!! there's no end to the grading.

Pretty soon we'll be at the "Everyone gets a trophy" point.

My attitude has always been "Do the best you can with what you have ,if you don't like the outcome , do what it takes to improve your preformance don't try to drag someone else down to your level"

RIGHT ON BROTHER!!!

Trapr,

Maybe we can all just share & not even compete, or we could just have match guns to use & hope for the best, that way we're all equal. There's no need to keep score or try, it's just a game & we're there just to make each other feel good about each other. Just spend time together & hold hands & sing coom ba ya. Yes that's it, that's why we have spent years practicing & lots of money to get better at this sport so we can have instant gratification.

[Dan Sierpina]

I don't see Trapr participating in matches with this in the rules.

II. Provide a level playing field for all competitors to test the skill and ability of each

individual, not equipment or gamesmanship.

I thought we all went to matches for the comraderie.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Dan Sierpina

[SiG Lady]

Pretty soon we'll be at the "Everyone gets a trophy" point.

I heard some time long ago that it was getting this way in some kids' sports. My God, that's ALL the wrong thing to teach them!!!!

I kinda like what toothandnail just said:

My attitude has always been "Do the best you can with what you have; if you don't like the outcome, do what it takes to improve your performance... don't try to drag someone else down to your level."

[toothandnail]

I don't want to come across wrong ,so here's a little background as to why the additude I have.

I run a race track, ATV and Motorcycle, for all ages 3yrs old being the youngest an 68 the oldest we've had.

I've had numerous parents who came and complained(2 whose child was 14) after the race their little jr. should've gotten a trophy, "because he tried". I ALWAYS reply , "no little johnnie needs to practice more if he wants a trophy".

Many will want enough classes ,rules and regs so their will only be 3 per class , then EVERYBODY gets a trophy . Actually I addressed this also by giving trophies to top 3 OR top 1/3 of the class

[bigbrowndog]

Dan, it won't happen because you can't have a level playing field, heck even football fields are concave for runoff, baseball diamonds are different distances in the outfield,

Tony, it just makes me won't to quit sometimes!!!! but my private little motto is "don't quit" so go figure!!!!!!

Trapr

[M ammo]

Can't we all just get a Trophy...

I mean (get along) ...

You right Trapr,,,

[No.343]

Trapr, After you are finished with USPSA and IPSC please have the NBA lower the hoop, so I can dunk a basketball.

[ChuckS]

I can't believe that is is 4 years old already: No Shooter Left Behind

On topic

Edited July 9, 2010 by ChuckS

[GorillaTactical]

The best way, in my opinion, to work on "leveling the field of play" is to make a match which doesn't play toward anyone's strengths or weaknesses...crazy logic right, it isn't like I just defined "leveling the field" ...too bad it never happens.

We need to have an average number of stages per each style of shooting...in other words, you'll always find shooters who are better at one thing than another (due to skill, age, eyesight, level of practice, X, Y, Z) and by having some matches with continual types of one stage style, the shooters who are best at those stages have the advantage.

The best example of this would be a match I shot last fall...TacPro 3 Gun - a regional match. ALL of the Rifle was long range...nothing inside 100M. I'm not against long range shooting...in fact I love it, but the match had 2 long range stages and no short range stuff but the match was marketed as a 3gun match with targets possibly close...so all the shooters with 1X optics got screwed...go figure I had an Eotech on my rifle that match

Unlike some of the other posts, I don't mind having "jungle run stages" or stages with hidden targets, because it gives the younger shooters a gunning chance on some of the real fast guys, BUT if you do a jungle run, make sure there is a hoser stage with the same weapon to allow the shooters who are faster on the guns a chance to showcase their skills, otherwise it's just frustrating for them.

Anyway, just my 2 cents on the topic...stage designers, if you want to level the field, just diversify the stages of fire to encompass a little of everything, it gives everyone a chance to do well on the shooting style they are best at...don't try to compensate for experience level or practice level...might as well add a freaking handicap like in golf if you're trying to do that.

Edited August 13, 2010 by GorillaTactical