The Fallacy of leveling the playing field

[TMC]

Making the targets seeable and hitable? I can't recall shooting a match where SOMEBODY didn't hit all the targets. If sombody hits them, then they must be hitable, and seeable, eh?

I personally don't think that the game should be about "finding targets." It should be about shooting visible targets accurately and quickly.

If you want to follow the "finding targets" game to its logical conclusion then paint the targets camo and hide them all over the woods. That would be silly. The targets to shoot should be obvious and visible.

+1 on that. I hate the Where's Waldo stages that are a memory game. I used to play Memory when I was a kid, you know the game with a bunch of cards that have a match and you spread them out on the floor and turn them over 1 at a time and try and remember where the match was. I don't want to do that when shooting, these folks who put out a bunch of targets and a wall of barrels, vision barriers and no shoots and a shooting area parallel to that wall so you can only see one or two targets from any one place and they are never close.

[gose]

Making the targets seeable and hitable? I can't recall shooting a match where SOMEBODY didn't hit all the targets. If sombody hits them, then they must be hitable, and seeable, eh?

I personally don't think that the game should be about "finding targets." It should be about shooting visible targets accurately and quickly.

If you want to follow the "finding targets" game to its logical conclusion then paint the targets camo and hide them all over the woods. That would be silly. The targets to shoot should be obvious and visible.

+1 on that. I hate the Where's Waldo stages that are a memory game. I used to play Memory when I was a kid, you know the game with a bunch of cards that have a match and you spread them out on the floor and turn them over 1 at a time and try and remember where the match was. I don't want to do that when shooting, these folks who put out a bunch of targets and a wall of barrels, vision barriers and no shoots and a shooting area parallel to that wall so you can only see one or two targets from any one place and they are never close.

Just remember to bring your tape

[Charles Bond]

.... I hate the Where's Waldo stages that are a memory game. I used to play Memory when I was a kid, you know the game with a bunch of cards that have a match and you spread them out on the floor and turn them over 1 at a time and try and remember where the match was. I don't want to do that when shooting, these folks who put out a bunch of targets and a wall of barrels, vision barriers and no shoots and a shooting area parallel to that wall so you can only see one or two targets from any one place and they are never close.

Amen. It looks like from the previews that is exactly what they are doing on the next "Top Shot" broadcast. The contestants will get to look at the board and then they cover it up and they have to "remember" which blocks hold your targets and which hold the targets of others. No one would do that in real life but then again it is TV where the focus is enterainment and visual effects. As our sport becomes less practical and more about "but this is a good game", I believe it loses its life lesson relevance.

[wgnoyes]

.... It looks like from the previews that is exactly what they are doing on the next "Top Shot" broadcast. The contestants will get to look at the board and then they cover it up and they have to "remember" which blocks hold your targets and which hold the targets of others. ...

Oh come on, that looks like its going to be "Concentration" with guns. All you'd need extra for that one is Hugh Downs as game show host!

[Doug S]

I think that the COF should be designed with a advantage/disadvantage for each division. ie. put in long range rifle targets but don't have a sandbag to shoot from. This would give advantage to Open Class with a bi-pod. Put in short range handgun, head shot, targets that would be a disadvantage to Open Class. Each competitor chooses thier division and must live with the handicaps of that division.

We also need to get away from too many short courses in our matches. USPSA has limited the amount of shots that can be required from one position, I think it is no more than 9 shots for the handgun. Why have a COF that requires shooting from one box but from three different positions and requiring mandatory mag changes after six shots? Are we trying to make revolvers as competitive as limited and open? We have the different divisions to level the playing fields, we don't need COF's that do it also.

As for targets, they should all be easily identified. If they are going to be hidden in the trees, paint them white! We are there to shoot them, not hunt for them. They can still be difficult targets without being hidden. By all means, still use barriers, walls, trees,etc. but when you figure out the obstical, make the targets visible/shootable.

COF designers, remember, keep designing challenging stages and let the different divisions "Level the Playing Field".

Doug

Edited June 24, 2010 by Doug S

[Graham Smith]

Build your COF as neutral as you can, make the targets seeable and hitable, and let shooters shoot!!!

I pretty much agree with you. It has to be remembered also that Open shooters are only shooting against other Open shooters, Limited against Limited, etc. It's not as if you are forcing a revolver to compete against a scoped race gun.

That said, I like it when the designers take into account the fact that a lot of people are shooting limited capacity magazines. I've seen stages where you either have to dump a nearly full mag while moving or you have to change mags in the middle of a next batch of targets.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I think that the COF should be designed with a advantage/disadvantage for each division. ie. put in long range rifle targets but don't have a sandbag to shoot from. This would give advantage to Open Class with a bi-pod. Put in short range handgun, head shot, targets that would be a disadvantage to Open Class. Each competitor chooses thier division and must live with the handicaps of that division.

We also need to get away from too many short courses in our matches. USPSA has limited the amount of shots that can be required from one position, I think it is no more than 9 shots for the handgun. Why have a COF that requires shooting from one box but from three different positions and requiring mandatory mag changes after six shots? Are we trying to make revolvers as competitive as limited and open? We have the different divisions to level the playing fields, we don't need COF's that do it also.

As for targets, they should all be easily identified. If they are going to be hidden in the trees, paint them white! We are there to shoot them, not hunt for them. They can still be difficult targets without being hidden. By all means, still use barriers, walls, trees,etc. but when you figure out the obstical, make the targets visible/shootable.

COF designers, remember, keep designing challenging stages and let the different divisions "Level the Playing Field".

Doug

I like your style Doug S.!

[AlamoShooter]

One method I suggested- When I was told that targets would be set 'Soft and Easy' to level the Field and bring the scores up.

Well the only that would work is to make certain that everyone had a gun that they had only shot a few times , and that make sure the shotgun did not fit them for the Flying clays. and make sure that the ammo was mixed and unreliable. and that we would have to confuse the shooter in some way so that they were not even certain how the gun functioned. And make sure that guns were unreliable

And to penalize any one that appeared to be "preparing for the stage"

Oh, and give each shooter some cheep glasses with scratches and a nasty Bio-film

That would be a start , But I don't think even that would work. to Level the playing field.

I was told once a long time ago to "Not work so hard" it was makeing the other guys look bad and they didn't like it.

[DMAC]

.... I hate the Where's Waldo stages that are a memory game. I used to play Memory when I was a kid, you know the game with a bunch of cards that have a match and you spread them out on the floor and turn them over 1 at a time and try and remember where the match was. I don't want to do that when shooting, these folks who put out a bunch of targets and a wall of barrels, vision barriers and no shoots and a shooting area parallel to that wall so you can only see one or two targets from any one place and they are never close.

Amen. It looks like from the previews that is exactly what they are doing on the next "Top Shot" broadcast. The contestants will get to look at the board and then they cover it up and they have to "remember" which blocks hold your targets and which hold the targets of others. No one would do that in real life but then again it is TV where the focus is enterainment and visual effects. As our sport becomes less practical and more about "but this is a good game", I believe it loses its life lesson relevance.

Interesting.....maybe I will toss in a longbow or a flaming spear as a stage "weapon" to LEVEL the playing field or perhaps just make it more interesting for TV for my next stage design. I think having an RPG would be a cool option for a stage gun, but there are probably some ATF issues there and I wouldn't want to game the stage to be an advantage for the Taliban that are competing. OK, I have nothing of relevance to contribute to this topic. I'm at work and just really bored right now, but since I'm my own boss, I guess it's OK.

[bigbrowndog]

somehow some folks have related pistol references to a topic about 3 gun/multigun???????? When it comes to pistol COF the reigning body pretty much says how to set up stages, round counts and such. I personally have never had an issue with pistol targets at any match, close or far, although memory stages do suck IMO. As for open vs open and ltd vs ltd, etc. with a pistol it has never been a problem because of the reigning governing body. And normally its never a problem at any 1 gun matches, its when multiple guns get used on a stage or in a match. Distance makes things different, so rifle is generally where the inequalities take place.

A lot of you are missing the point, when you say that different divisions level the playing field, THERE IS NO SUCH THING!!!! even within the same division, this is why I say............Targets should be seeable and hitable, by ALL recognized divisions equipment. Its just FAIR, remember the concept.......Fairness, when you were growing up you wanted things to be handled FAIRLY, You wanted your parents, and teachers to treat you FAIRLY, You wanted punishment and reward to be handed out FAIRLY!!!!!

One group should not be given or made allowances for in a stage or match, in an attempt to level the playing field, because no such thing exists, to try and do so only makes it UNFAIR to the rest of us.

Trapr

[Mike P]

somehow some folks have related pistol references to a topic about 3 gun/multigun???????? When it comes to pistol COF the reigning body pretty much says how to set up stages, round counts and such. I personally have never had an issue with pistol targets at any match, close or far, although memory stages do suck IMO. As for open vs open and ltd vs ltd, etc. with a pistol it has never been a problem because of the reigning governing body. And normally its never a problem at any 1 gun matches, its when multiple guns get used on a stage or in a match. Distance makes things different, so rifle is generally where the inequalities take place.

A lot of you are missing the point, when you say that different divisions level the playing field, THERE IS NO SUCH THING!!!! even within the same division, this is why I say............Targets should be seeable and hitable, by ALL recognized divisions equipment. Its just FAIR, remember the concept.......Fairness, when you were growing up you wanted things to be handled FAIRLY, You wanted your parents, and teachers to treat you FAIRLY, You wanted punishment and reward to be handed out FAIRLY!!!!!

One group should not be given or made allowances for in a stage or match, in an attempt to level the playing field, because no such thing exists, to try and do so only makes it UNFAIR to the rest of us.

Trapr

Well, I'm fairly sure that targets that get hit are hitable and if they are hitable, then they must be seeable. Eh?

If they didn't get hit by everyone, then you would have to assume that the person who did hit them either practiced more, or came out to the match to try and make the playing field unlevel. Bastards.

Are we talking about making the targets hitable by every division? If we are, then I will have to stand by my earlier post that at all the major 3-gun matches I have shot, the targets were hit by the best of every division. Sometimes the target definition sux, sometimes it sux more due to lighting or lack of lighting. The fact remains that the best shooters continue to perform regardless of the challenge, and the rest of us get hind teat.

I'd rather have a playing field that was down hill (for me anyway) than level.

[hopalong]

So if you want seeable and hittable targets come on down to the MS 3-gun Challenge and see what Trapr has set up for you to see and hit !!!!!!

It is simple and easy to set up challenging stages. Challenge a skill set. not the ability to find a target out of the maze of trees ect. Or hit that 3 inch rectagular target at 45 yds with buckshot, or hit that 6 inch plate at 375 yds with your m1a and Iron sights -------oh did i mention it wasn't painted either ????

Come to Mississippi in October, you'll be able to see your targets, hitting them is your challenge, but they will not be HARD to hit.

THE GOOD SHOOTERS WILL ALWAYS BE ON TOP. They do easy things really good, and hard things good. DON'T WORRY ABOUT THEM. Make your stages fun and doable to the c class shooters (IN USPSA) and you'll have many return shooters the next year.

Last year at the MS 3-gun match I had one stage that you shot rifle across a lake to some MGM flashers (that were donated by MGM btw THanks MIKE and Travis) and I had a 180 second limit on the stage. One squad did not understand that and let the shooters shoot overtime (on the Friday part of the shoot) so when I found that out I talked to the RM (Kurt Miller) and told him that since it was shot that way and others had been penalized for going to the 180 and then stopped it was not a fair stage and would have to toss it out. I did not toss it out until the match was over, and every one got to shoot the stage. I heard many thank yous for letting them shoot the stage even though it did not score as it was so much fun.

Build your stages to challenge the shooter but not penalize them. Make them doable and fun in some kind of way. You will not level the playing field. It is not possible. Unless you have a motor Grader and rakes !!!

HOP

[Alaskapopo]

Well no matter how gnats a$$ bubble level the playing field it is always "up hill" for some and "down hill" for others, it is what you have in your pocket on any given day as to what is up and what is down.

A good example of this is that I LOVE long range pistol and no-one else at my club does, so when I design stages it will ALWAYS be 40+ yards....and you should hear the whineing!! One day I showed up to help set up and 3 of the stages already set up were 50+ on SMALL targets. They all started laughing about how that wold finally put an end to me "running away" wiht these types of stages...I looked at it for a bit and then said..."Guys I can make those shots...can you???" Well the farthest target that weekend was 20 yards. Got to be careful when the grader shows up! kURTm

I like long range pistol as well. You are right guys whine like mad when you put out 50 yard pistol targets. At the matches I host I like to have at least one handgun target at 50 yards. Sometimes more.

pat

[Dan Sierpina]

Trapr,

Very well said!

Jim's points are on target too!

We shot a team multigun match over the weekend. The playing field was about as "level" as can be. There were no invisible or even "hard" targets, but, a good challenging match. It was scored "time, plus". The winning time was 575.78 seconds......last place was....well.... a lot more.

There is no way to even things out, and still have it be competition.

[jwfuhrman]

I keep shooting in Production... a lot... and I keep getting higher and higher in the over-all, vs the Open guys and the Limited guys.

Must be the gun, or maybe they are building more "Production Friendly" stages to level the playing field!

LOL

Jeff

Im doing the same thing. While Open sounds fun, Production is what I started with, and Im not leaving it until I make M and can win consistantly at that level

[bigbrowndog]

MikeP what I am refering to is that they be seeable with the naked eye, not magnified thru an optic, knowing where a target is is not the same as seeing it, and hitable means at least 4moa.

TrApR

[fastshooter03]

It sounds to me that we need to get more people involved with the stage design and development during construction at the range

"I don't make the stage, I make it better" remember that commercial?

Any ideas on how to get more consultants there?

Nick

[Jesse Tischauser]

I think Mohammed Traper needs to be the president of the O3GC, Outlaw 3 Gun Confederation.

This sport is growing. The 3 gun nation TV show is only going to make it bigger and better! We need a sanctioning body of 3 Gun to help promote, support, & grow this sport.

Mohammed Trapr for President!!!

The only leveling of the playing field we need is to have enough hoser shooting to get new shooters to the major matches so that sponsors keep supporting the matches.

Edited June 25, 2010 by jtischauser

[Mike P]

MikeP what I am refering to is that they be seeable with the naked eye, not magnified thru an optic, knowing where a target is is not the same as seeing it, and hitable means at least 4moa.

TrApR

I'm with you BBD. but while size does matter, contrast, or definition is pretty dang important too. Think about it, a 4moa target that is gray from being hit, in the rocks of rural KY, 4moa and it'd still be impossible to see.

When considering the minimum acceptable moa there needs to be some wiggle room as long as contrasting backers are used. With yellow backers those MGM flashers can be seen a long way. That said, in order for there to actually be contrast the targets have to be kept painted. I don't think they have to be painted for every shooter like some foreign clubs do, but the ROs on a stage know when visibility is degraded and should fix it and be given time to fix it. Usually painting between squads is enough, any squad I've been a part of is always willing to let the iron shooters go first or early in the rotation.

[Alaskapopo]

I think Mohammed Traper needs to be the president of the O3GC, Outlaw 3 Gun Confederation.

This sport is growing. The 3 gun nation TV show is only going to make it bigger and better! We need a sanctioning body of 3 Gun to help promote, support, & grow this sport.

Mohammed Trapr for President!!!

The only leveling of the playing field we need is to have enough hoser shooting to get new shooters to the major matches so that sponsors keep supporting the matches.

I would love to see a three gun organization as well. Not simply a three gun variation of a pistol sport.

Pat

[Mike P]

I think Mohammed Traper needs to be the president of the O3GC, Outlaw 3 Gun Confederation.

This sport is growing. The 3 gun nation TV show is only going to make it bigger and better! We need a sanctioning body of 3 Gun to help promote, support, & grow this sport.

Mohammed Trapr for President!!!

The only leveling of the playing field we need is to have enough hoser shooting to get new shooters to the major matches so that sponsors keep supporting the matches.

I would love to see a three gun organization as well. Not simply a three gun variation of a pistol sport.

Pat

What is the benefit to the average shooter, or sponsor for that matter of having an umbrella organization for 3 gun?

[bigbrowndog]

MikeP, i think we're on the same page!! the contrasting backer is important which is why I say seeable with the naked eye. Personally, I feel the backer should have at least 1/2 the target size around the target, ex: 4" target 8" backer, 12" target 24" backer, so basically the backer needs to be twice the size of the target at a MINIMUM!!! and as my signature tagline says, gray has no corresponding opposite so it should not be used as a target color!!!!period!!!!

tRApr

[bigbrowndog]

Jessie!! your hole is just getting deeper and deeper, do you know how easy it is to hide a body on 250acres??????

TrapR

Edited June 26, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[kurtm]

lET ALONE 5??

Jess"y" I am going by Powder Valley on the way home, If you need anything put it on willcall and I will bring it down, saving the hazmat charge! KurtM

[Jesse Tischauser]

I think Mohammed Traper needs to be the president of the O3GC, Outlaw 3 Gun Confederation.

This sport is growing. The 3 gun nation TV show is only going to make it bigger and better! We need a sanctioning body of 3 Gun to help promote, support, & grow this sport.

Mohammed Trapr for President!!!

The only leveling of the playing field we need is to have enough hoser shooting to get new shooters to the major matches so that sponsors keep supporting the matches.

I would love to see a three gun organization as well. Not simply a three gun variation of a pistol sport.

Pat

What is the benefit to the average shooter, or sponsor for that matter of having an umbrella organization for 3 gun?

I was heavily inebriated when I posted that yesterday. It is a topic for discussion in another thread for sure. so I will just say that I think there could be a lot of benefits and leave it at that. The President, Trapr would come up with all kinds of good stuff for us to benefit from.