bigbrowndog Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 It cannot be done!!!!!! whether for equipment or personal ability. Too many times I hear stage designers and MD's say that they want to level the playing field by implementing some rule or course design. THERE IS NO SUCH THING!!!!!! There is no way that all competitors will be able to compete equally, personal ability and some luck, will always cause some to perform better than others, the outcome will always favor the prepared. No amount of new super secret squirrel equipment will allow a mediocre competitor to better a more able and prepared competitor. There is also no such thing as competitors of equal skill, if there was we would have a whole bunch of ties in matches, with all the equipment we use there are plenty of areas for some to be better at than others, and errors to be made during a COF cause some to rise above when others will falter. The only way you would get equal skill levels would be if a competitor shot against themselves with different equipment. some have said that a short barreled gun will perform better in small confined spaces than a longer barreled one, given shooters of equal ability, well since there is no such things as equal ability!!!!! that is not correct, There is no way a COF could be designed that would cause a 18 or 20" rifle or shotgun to be at a disadvantage over a SBR or SBS. If the competitor can fit down the hallway then it is quite easy for the rifle or SG to as well, Kurt has said that he could trounce anyone with a full size M1A/M14 over a SBR, in a small confining hallway, personally I wouldn't want to bet against him, so trying to level the playing field by designing COF's to favor one type of equipment is ridiculous and isn't going ot work as hoped. i''ve been to matches where pump SG shooters have to down load to 6 rounds at the start, the excuse given is to level the playing field for the shooters that do not have extensions,....... guess what!!! you would never see that done for a Single stack shooter wanting to shoot in Open???? So why do it!!!! Build your COF as neutral as you can, make the targets seeable and hitable, and let shooters shoot!!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD!!!!! tRAPR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcave Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 +1 to bigbrowndog's post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Here Here! Well said! Let's see someone get bumped into open with a single stack and then raise a stink about mag cap and leveling the playing field. I wish someone would do it, I need a good laugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 (edited) But, having the latest and greatest equipment makes me feel pretty! (Coming from the guy shooting a single stack .45, M1A and 870!) I have to come clean though. I got caught up in the equipment race. I did buy one of those fancy tube things you put on top of an AR that takes the place of the iron sights. I haven't figured out how to work it yet.... Edited June 23, 2010 by Bryan 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 But, having the latest and greatest equipment makes me feel pretty! (Coming from the guy shooting a single stack .45, M1A and 870!) I have to come clean though. I got caught up in the equipment race. I did buy one of those fancy tube things you put on top of an AR that takes the place of the iron sights. I haven't figured out how to work it yet.... Use it like a big peep hole sight, it'll get you close, and use Kentucky windage from there on out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 100% on the money Trapr!!! Thanks for posting! Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 excellent post and excellent advice!!! well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 It cannot be done!!!!!! whether for equipment or personal ability. Too many times I hear stage designers and MD's say that they want to level the playing field by implementing some rule or course design. THERE IS NO SUCH THING!!!!!! There is no way that all competitors will be able to compete equally, personal ability and some luck, will always cause some to perform better than others, the outcome will always favor the prepared. No amount of new super secret squirrel equipment will allow a mediocre competitor to better a more able and prepared competitor. There is also no such thing as competitors of equal skill, if there was we would have a whole bunch of ties in matches, with all the equipment we use there are plenty of areas for some to be better at than others, and errors to be made during a COF cause some to rise above when others will falter. The only way you would get equal skill levels would be if a competitor shot against themselves with different equipment. some have said that a short barreled gun will perform better in small confined spaces than a longer barreled one, given shooters of equal ability, well since there is no such things as equal ability!!!!! that is not correct, There is no way a COF could be designed that would cause a 18 or 20" rifle or shotgun to be at a disadvantage over a SBR or SBS. If the competitor can fit down the hallway then it is quite easy for the rifle or SG to as well, Kurt has said that he could trounce anyone with a full size M1A/M14 over a SBR, in a small confining hallway, personally I wouldn't want to bet against him, so trying to level the playing field by designing COF's to favor one type of equipment is ridiculous and isn't going ot work as hoped. i''ve been to matches where pump SG shooters have to down load to 6 rounds at the start, the excuse given is to level the playing field for the shooters that do not have extensions,....... guess what!!! you would never see that done for a Single stack shooter wanting to shoot in Open???? So why do it!!!! Build your COF as neutral as you can, make the targets seeable and hitable, and let shooters shoot!!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD!!!!! tRAPR Too bad it's too long for a tag line. There really is no level playing feild. There is just what can you do with what you got within the specs of your division. Practice is all I got right now to speak too much on this, but I think you speak gospel on this one. Thanks, JZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffWard Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 I keep shooting in Production... a lot... and I keep getting higher and higher in the over-all, vs the Open guys and the Limited guys. Must be the gun, or maybe they are building more "Production Friendly" stages to level the playing field! LOL Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 +1000! Well said. I see this allot from newer guys when they start designing stages. They say they are trying to slow down the open or fast guys down. I try to tell them the fast guys will still be fast and all they will accomplish is to make it harder for the less skilled and frustrate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 100% on the money - absolutely agree!! Is it just me, or is Trapr becoming more prophetic as the years go by? Everytime he posts something, it's spot-on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 "Make the targets SEEABLE and HITABLE" Yes! Paint the steel White, or paint it Black, put up a flag if you don't want to put up a backer but show us where you have the targets. Make your Physical Challenge achievable for the level of fitness that your shooters bring to the match. Don't expect us 50-60 year olds to run 300 yards in a stage and be happy about it. The match can have some physical challenges sure, but let's not have things that overshadow the shooting. If we wanted to run a marathon, that is what we'd do, If we wanted to compete in Free Running or obstacle courses, that is what we'd do. If you have to put a serious physical challenge in then have a by-pass for those that simply can no longer scale a 10 foot wall or transit a 50 foot long rope. +1000 Trapr. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Traprs post and Jims post ...pretty well sum it up Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 "Make the targets SEEABLE and HITABLE" Yes! Paint the steel White, or paint it Black, put up a flag if you don't want to put up a backer but show us where you have the targets. Make your Physical Challenge achievable for the level of fitness that your shooters bring to the match. Don't expect us 50-60 year olds to run 300 yards in a stage and be happy about it. The match can have some physical challenges sure, but let's not have things that overshadow the shooting. If we wanted to run a marathon, that is what we'd do, If we wanted to compete in Free Running or obstacle courses, that is what we'd do. If you have to put a serious physical challenge in then have a by-pass for those that simply can no longer scale a 10 foot wall or transit a 50 foot long rope. +1000 Trapr. Jim Making the targets seeable and hitable? I can't recall shooting a match where SOMEBODY didn't hit all the targets. If sombody hits them, then they must be hitable, and seeable, eh? Physical challenges are part of the drill as far as I'm concerned and in the major 3-gun matches I've shot most of the ROs are as old as me (just over a half a century) and they run the same courses over and over for two or three days. In fact, making a match more physical may do more to attract younger shooters than anything else. Just because it is less fun to me to cover several hundred yards during a course, it may be just what some 35 YO is looking for. LOL. I'm in agreement with the futility of "leveling the playing field" though, it can't be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 (edited) ... Edited June 24, 2010 by Steve J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 The Prophet Muhammed Trapr has spoken. Well said brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 The Prophet Muhammed Trapr has spoken. Well said brother. Oh mods please! Muhammed Trapr! Please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninefan Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Making the targets seeable and hitable? I can't recall shooting a match where SOMEBODY didn't hit all the targets. If sombody hits them, then they must be hitable, and seeable, eh? I personally don't think that the game should be about "finding targets." It should be about shooting visible targets accurately and quickly. If you want to follow the "finding targets" game to its logical conclusion then paint the targets camo and hide them all over the woods. That would be silly. The targets to shoot should be obvious and visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latewatch Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 I would think with a good Grader and some guys with rakes you should be able to get the playing field pretty level..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modoc Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 I would think with a good Grader and some guys with rakes you should be able to get the playing field pretty level..... Latewatch beat me to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Making the targets seeable and hitable? I can't recall shooting a match where SOMEBODY didn't hit all the targets. If sombody hits them, then they must be hitable, and seeable, eh? I personally don't think that the game should be about "finding targets." It should be about shooting visible targets accurately and quickly. If you want to follow the "finding targets" game to its logical conclusion then paint the targets camo and hide them all over the woods. That would be silly. The targets to shoot should be obvious and visible. Does this mean that the playing field should be leveled by making the targets "equally seeable" by all participants? Individual ability is what makes the difference between competitors at the end of the day, and the ability to see well is in most cases helpful. The targets are not always easily visible at some matches, but somehow a few competitors always manage to see them well enough to hit them. I guess you could change the presentation by using contrasting backers, or larger targets, but wouldn't that be the same as trying to make it easier for those who couldn't close the deal otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Well no matter how gnats a$$ bubble level the playing field it is always "up hill" for some and "down hill" for others, it is what you have in your pocket on any given day as to what is up and what is down. A good example of this is that I LOVE long range pistol and no-one else at my club does, so when I design stages it will ALWAYS be 40+ yards....and you should hear the whineing!! One day I showed up to help set up and 3 of the stages already set up were 50+ on SMALL targets. They all started laughing about how that wold finally put an end to me "running away" wiht these types of stages...I looked at it for a bit and then said..."Guys I can make those shots...can you???" Well the farthest target that weekend was 20 yards. Got to be careful when the grader shows up! kURTm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 IMO this entire thread is a plot by the Obama Administration who sent agents from Area 51 to plant the seeds of this post in Kurt's brain during a rainstorm in order to draw the attention of forum members away from questions such as "what is the best ______" and therefore deprive retailers everywhere from resulting profits so as to bankrupt the economic foundations of the "gun culture". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted June 24, 2010 Author Share Posted June 24, 2010 now we're getting seriously unfunny with obama and muslim comments about me and my buddy KuRtm. As for seeing targets and hitting them, with an optic is much easier than with the naked eye, MikeP, SOMEBODY may be able to see and hit all the targets but EVERYONE should have the same opportunity. opportunity and ability are 2 totally different things, trust me when I say I could easily make a match iron sight freindly over an optic, but then all the optic shooters would complain and the match would fail, but since the iron shooters numbers are so low, nobody seems to give a $HiT. So seeable simply means easy to locate and hitable means preferably no smaller than 4moa. TRapR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike cyrwus Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 bring on the LR pistol shots, Brother Kurt. Im back shooting limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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